TrueHoop: Bosh Wants To Be The Man

[Ripp]

Question for you guys.

Consider some of the Dallas rosters over the 2000s.

Suppose you gave Bosh the equivalent of prime Josh Howard, Devin Harris, JET, 06-07 Damp/Diop, a serviceable SG rotation, and a defensive minded coach.

That team still would be 4th-5th in the east. Bosh is quite far from Dirk's level.
Bosh is not a better franchise player than Vince was, the sooner you assume it the better.

You cannot be serious. The current roster is 5th in the east; you are saying Turk->Josh Howard, Jack/Calderon->Devin Harris/Jet, Bargnani->Damp/Diop is a lateral move?

You either underrate the 06-07 Mavs minus Dirk, or overrate the current Raptors minus Bosh..

[OneTime86]

I'm becoming more and more convinced that "but bosh and bargs suck defensively" is the go-to knee jerk reaction against anyone trying to say that they're any good, and means you don't believe that young players can improve defensively

, or that the Raps recent dramatic defensive improvement means anything at all.

Not to mention, of course, that there's an assumption here that all the other top players you're talking about are amazing defensively themselves, which is one helluvan assumption.

We'll see what happens, but from the looks of it, this Raps team is pretty good and only getting better, and at some point the critics are going to have ask themselves why exactly that is.

You also need the tools.
Bargnani is not athletic, that already caps his limit a lot on defense.
Turk is 30 years old for freaking out loud.
Rupaul is average.

You have your three top options.
Rupaul is average on defense.
Turko a lil bit below average defender.
And Barney, horrible, possibly one of the worst defensive players in the league.
Even Phoenix Suns that had a more explosive offense, also had better defense, and still couldn't win a title either.
Playoffs is whole new animal.
Am just going to remember this thread. A couple years ago, Arenas, Jamison, Caron Butler, had descent record, Arenas fans thought he was top five too do to offensive output, but the the thing those fans said, was that they were a hard team to defend, when considering, all their top players were not strong defenders either.

To say Bargnani is a one of the worst defenders in the league is a truly ignorant statement.

[crossroads]

You also need the tools.
Bargnani is not athletic, that already caps his limit a lot on defense.
Turk is 30 years old for freaking out loud.
Rupaul is average.

You have your three top options.
Rupaul is average on defense.
Turko a lil bit below average defender.
And Barney, horrible, possibly one of the worst defensive players in the league.
Even Phoenix Suns that had a more explosive offense, also had better defense, and still couldn't win a title either.
Playoffs is whole new animal.
Am just going to remember this thread. A couple years ago, Arenas, Jamison, Caron Butler, had descent record, Arenas fans thought he was top five too do to offensive output, but the the thing those fans said, was that they were a hard team to defend, when considering, all their top players were not strong defenders either.

To say Bargnani is a one of the worst defenders in the league is a truly ignorant statement.

Not if you're basing it off of help defense, which as a Center is more important to the teams defense then man-to-man defense

[crossroads]

What were YOU arguing with?

The point was only that if Divac had been his 16-17ppg prime self - you know, like Bargnani is RIGHT NOW, then maybe that Kings team might have won a title.

Sacramento's issue was NOT offense, their respective teams were some of the best offensive structured teams in the league during their tenure of importance and contention, it was they ran into a juggernaut team of the lakers with a few GOATS this game has ever seen.

And, with your earlier comment of being a headcase, I'm done with arguing with you. -- Your point is nothing but to denote a player down to mediocrity and take silly shots at them, just to prop up your own.

G'Night, sir!

so you're saying that they wouldn't have had a better chance at winning a title if Divac was still in his prime, instead of being the much diminished player at the end of his career that he was.

good argument.

With players like Webber, Peja, Bibby, Christie, Bobby Jackson, and Hedo the Kings didn't need very much scoring from Vlade. In fact, in the starting lineup he was the 5th option, and even this current version of Bargnani would likely only be the 4th option on that team, so it's doubtful he would be putting up anything close to 16-17 points per game if he were on those Kings teams. And since Divac wasn't required to be a scorer, his passing made him a much more valuable asset (especially when surrounded by shooters like Peja and Bibby) then Bargs would have been on that team. And that's not trying to take anything away from Bargs as a player, it's simply that on that team his strengths would have been diminished and he simply doesn't have the passing skills and vision of Divac.

[Flash3]

so you're saying that they wouldn't have had a better chance at winning a title if Divac was still in his prime, instead of being the much diminished player at the end of his career that he was.

good argument.

With players like Webber, Peja, Bibby, Christie, Bobby Jackson, and Hedo the Kings didn't need very much scoring from Vlade. In fact, in the starting lineup he was the 5th option, and even this current version of Bargnani would likely only be the 4th option on that team, so it's doubtful he would be putting up anything close to 16-17 points per game if he were on those Kings teams. And since Divac wasn't required to be a scorer, his passing made him a much more valuable asset (especially when surrounded by shooters like Peja and Bibby) then Bargs would have been on that team. And that's not trying to take anything away from Bargs as a player, it's simply that on that team his strengths would have been diminished and he simply doesn't have the passing skills and vision of Divac.

USeless arguing with that kid, he's so ingrained in Bargnani being the better player now and in the future, that he had to fabricate non-sense (Vlade being washed up and that's why Sacto didn't win titles, and Webber wasn't a leader and is selfish), in an attempt to prop up his own player.

[Latrell]

....

[Blame Rasho]

....

It is impressively pathetic to see a moderator resort to insults.

[Raps United]

But Bosh could be. He's getting better, becoming the best PF in basketball, and could becoming top 5 in the future. To say there is no way, is a ridiculous statement.

LOL, Bosh will never be top 5 thats the whole point.

Wade will be in the top 5 for at least 4 more years (barring injuries), Kobe at least 2 (at least kobe fans) Durant will if not already is top 5, obviously Lebron, then there is Dwight, CP3, Dirk.

Tell me when will Bosh be top 5?

Dirk? Bosh is already better than Dirk. And I find this top 5 thing hilarious Bosh is just touching his prime now who knows what his ceiling could be. Bottom line is this the way Bosh is playing right now( ranked 3rd in the NBA in efficiency) the only thing keeping him from being considered one of the best is he plays in Canada.

[Chosen01]

lol regardless of if dirk is or not bosh isn't and likely won't ever be

[everdiso]

You also need the tools.

Bargnani is not athletic, that already caps his limit a lot on defense.

huh?

Bargs is one of the quickest 7-footers the league has ever seen.

And he's a true 7-footer, with true centre 250lbs+ bulk.

[dawn_wan]

minus the true center rebounding and box outs

[sca]

You also need the tools.

Bargnani is not athletic, that already caps his limit a lot on defense.

huh?

Bargs is one of the quickest 7-footers the league has ever seen.

And he's a true 7-footer, with true centre 250lbs+ bulk.

Well, he can't get off the ground and he also gets bullied by stronger post players. These are facts.

[everdiso]

With players like Webber, Peja, Bibby, Christie, Bobby Jackson, and Hedo the Kings didn't need very much scoring from Vlade. In fact, in the starting lineup he was the 5th option, and even this current version of Bargnani would likely only be the 4th option on that team, so it's doubtful he would be putting up anything close to 16-17 points per game if he were on those Kings teams. And since Divac wasn't required to be a scorer, his passing made him a much more valuable asset (especially when surrounded by shooters like Peja and Bibby) then Bargs would have been on that team. And that's not trying to take anything away from Bargs as a player, it's simply that on that team his strengths would have been diminished and he simply doesn't have the passing skills and vision of Divac.

yes, those Kings were a stacked offensive team, and these Raps are a stacked offensive team.

Bargs is the 2nd option on one of the best offensive teams in the league, Divac was a 4th or 5th option on one of the best offensive teams in the league.

[everdiso]

USeless arguing with that kid, he's so ingrained in Bargnani being the better player now and in the future, that he had to fabricate non-sense (Vlade being washed up and that's why Sacto didn't win titles, and Webber wasn't a leader and is selfish), in an attempt to prop up his own player.

there is nothing nonsense in saying that Divac was a diminished player at the end of his career, nor in saying that Webber was selfish and a poor leader.

[Dr Positivity]

You also need the tools.
Bargnani is not athletic, that already caps his limit a lot on defense.
Rupaul is average.

Bargnani has the tools to be a very good defensive C actually. He's a legit 7'1 250 while being one of the league's more mobile Cs. If you take away the rebounding, Bargnani has more defensive "tools" than Pau who did just fine in last year's playoffs.

Bosh has the tools to be an excellent defender. He's long and a hell of an athlete.

Derozan too

Hedo and Jose... yeah... but it's not like every team is made of defensive nightmares

[Parataxis]

minus the true center rebounding and box outs

Really? Do you really believe that Bosh would be one of the league's great rebounders if Bargs wasn't boxing people out?

[everdiso]

You also need the tools.

Bargnani is not athletic, that already caps his limit a lot on defense.

huh?

Bargs is one of the quickest 7-footers the league has ever seen.

And he's a true 7-footer, with true centre 250lbs+ bulk.

Well, he can't get off the ground and he also gets bullied by stronger post players. These are facts.

He certainly doesn't get bullied around in the post, unless you're talking about Shaq.

This is easily the biggest misconception about Bargs.

Criticize his help defense, sure, because he deserves it.....but Bargs can guard most any centre in the league on one one with his combination of size, length, and quicks, and as he continues to improve is allowing the raps to avoid having to double down on the likes of Duncan and Dwight.

[Dr Positivity]

A team with Chris Bosh as its best player will never compete for a championship.

Can I borrow your crystal ball?

A team with Chris Bosh as its best player will never compete for a championship.

That's a ridiculous statement. Chris Bosh has gotten better every single season. With the right supporting cast, there is no reason to think they can't win a championship.

If the Pistons won the championship with Billups as their best player, a team with Bosh can win the championship.

Chauncey is the outlier there, other than him the list of best players on championship teams in the last 20 years includes KG, Kobe, Duncan, Wade, Shaq, Jordan, Hakeem and Isiah, all players who were top 3-5 in the league at some point, something Bosh is not.

I'm going to wager that Toronto (or any other team Bosh might be the man for) will never have a supporting cast as well-rounded as that Detroit team, which had 3-4 other players arguably as good as Chauncey in their starting lineup, not to mention a record-breaking defense.

This is where revisionist history comes in. In 89 and 90 Isiah wasn't even making 3rd team All-NBA and finished 17th and 13th in MVP voting. Statistically he was putting up an inefficient 18/8. Isiah probably deserves to be ranked in the top 5 for 88-90... because he was the best player and emotional leader of 2 title teams/one Game 7 Finals loser in that span.

If the Raptors win 55 games+ and then win a title, you can bet Bosh will be seen as a top 5 player in the league, in fact he'll probably be seen as the alpha dog of the league at that point like most best players on a title team are after they win. He'd probably finish top 3-5 in MVP voting those years too if the Raptors were near the top. He got 7th for a 47 win campaign, this year he'll likely win about the same and should finish at least that high, he could get top 5 to be honest.

Bosh is putting up 24/11 and is top 5 in PER and win shares... if he did that on a 55 win+ team he would ABSOLUTELY be considered a superstar top 5 player. For the record Dirk didn't make it past 7th in MVP voting until 04-05 and that was with multiple 55 win+ seasons... if Bosh starts cranking out 55 win years he can very easily follow Dirk's career path

If Bosh can be the clear best player on a contender that'll make him a superstar

[Dr Positivity]

It is amazing that despite the drastic improvement in defense according to some, they are still the worst defensive team in the NBA. In fact for the entire season they are the only above .500 team that has a negative point differential.

The Raptors were the equivalent of 40th defensively for the first couple months. Meaning the gap between them and 29th was the same as between 29th and 19th-20th. We were at 115-116 DRTG.

So even though we've been playing more like 15th-20th overall defense since then, it's taken this long just to move from 40th to 30th or from 115+ to 112

[Flash3]

If Bosh can be the clear best player on a contender that'll make him a superstar

That goes w/o saying, but how likely is that given the East will now have most probably LBJ/Amare and VC/Howard for the next 3-4 years hogging up the East's rep for the Finals?

Wade and Bosh are going to have to look long and hard at somehow teaming up together, because their respective teams and the progress that could be made isn't going to match up to the 2 aforementioned above.