RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #92 (Horace Grant)

Post #1 » by **Doctor MJ** » Wed Apr 10, 2024 3:10 pm

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. Nomination vote now works the same way.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):

Spoiler:

Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Billy Cunningham

Bob Davies

Horace Grant

Cliff Hagan

Jayson Tatum

As requested, here's the current list so far along with the historical spreadsheet of previous projects:

Current List
Historical Spreadsheet

AEnigma · Post #2 » by **AEnigma** » Wed Apr 10, 2024 3:45 pm

VOTE: Billy Cunningham
Alternate: Bob Davies
NOMINATE: Gus Williams
AltNom: Luka Doncic

AEnigma wrote:Hold Gus in high regard for his excellent postseason elevation, his strong impact profile, and his general trend of success. On one of the old projects, Ronnymac mentioned that the 1976 Warriors had an outlier opponent turnover percentage coinciding with rookie Gus’s emergence as a McMillan-esque bench disrupter. Couple that with the Warriors losing narrowly once Gus was unable to play, and although that rookie season ends up not worth much in a CORP sense, I appreciate the signal of his ability to affect the game early on and at reduced minutes.

To me he was at his peak the fifth best (not most accomplished) guard before the playmaker boom of the late 1980s. Dynamic in transition, flexible as either a lead creator or a dedicated scorer, and defensively feisty without being irresponsible. Lack of longevity will be a non-starter for many, but I encourage those more forgiving of that to give him serious consideration.

Tried to support Grant over Walton, because I really do see Walton as more of a gatekeeper than an actual rank-able figure, but with Walton’s induction now I am going back to my usual focus on ability to drive a team. For alternate nomination, deciding between whichever of Wilkins and Luka has the most support (looks like this round goes to Luka). Fine with Chet or Worthy for future nominations.

Samurai · Post #3 » by **Samurai** » Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:48 pm

Vote for #92: Billy Cunningham. Excellent peak but injuries cut his career short. But his peak was outstanding: MVP (ABA), three-time All NBA First Team, one All ABA First Team, and one All NBA Second Team. Very good rebounder with elite hops (hence his nickname of the Kangaroo Kid), very good passer and solid defender with excellent bbIQ. Career 21.2 point/game scorer. Biggest knock outside of longevity is that he wasn't a good dribbler. But he always played with heart and tenacity with a non-stop motor.

Alternate vote: Jayson Tatum. My biggest reservation is his lack of longevity relative to the other nominees. But his peak/prime has been so strong that I favor him over the other choices. All NBA First Team the past two seasons and on the third team in 20. Dynamic scorer. Not an elite defender but he isn't a poor one either. Just needs better longevity to move up the list for me.

Nomination: Jerry Lucas. No I don't expect Luke to get much support as he didn't make the top 100 the last time either. But he's been a personal favorite of mine since I went to his summer camp so this is a personal bias vote for me. Outstanding shooter who shot for a very high percentage in his era, especially notable since he typically shot from farther out than most anyone else at that time. Twice led the league in TS% with eight total finishes in the top 20. A poor defender on the wing due to his lack of foot speed, he was a solid low post defender due to his strength and positioning, although at only 6-8 he could not stop taller elites like Wilt or Kareem. Seven finishes in the top 20 in DWS and eight times for OWS, he was named All NBA five times (3 first teams and 2 second teams). An elite rebounder, although he was a noted stat padder, he spent hours in the gym studying flight patterns and angles of shots to determine where a potential rebound is most likely to fall and used this uncanny positioning and strength to offset his lack of hops. Also a very good passer for a big in that era.

Alternate nomination: Walt Bellamy. While I was never a big fan of his, I also admit that I only saw him play in the latter (post-prime) half of his career. Had the impression that he was kind of an 'empty stats' guy who put up big numbers that didn't necessarily translate into big impact. His WOWY isn't too impressive and he didn't seem to raise his game in the playoffs, although he didn't have any playoff appearances during his peak years. But he was a strong scorer who shot a high percentage for his era, finishing in the top 10 in TS% nine times. Was a good (but not elite) rebounder with seven top 10 finishes in reb/game. Excellent WS numbers with seven different seasons of 10+ WS (more than any of our current nominees), including a 16 WS rookie year.

trelos6 · Post #4 » by **trelos6** » Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:16 pm

Vote: Bob Davies

He wasn't in my short listed pool of 160 odd players I initially ranked, but after some support in the last 10-15 threads, I've done some deep dives and I'm happy to have him at 91. I'd give him 4 years at an ALL NBA level, with another 3 at an ALL STAR level. This is enough longevity to get him over Bill Walton.

Alt Vote: Tatum

Don’t love his longevity, but very good impact metrics. Has been a #1 option for a while on offence, which is not something I can say about Horace. Though Horace is a better defender, Tatum is a pretty good defender in his own way.

For the rest, I see it: Grant > Hagan > Cunningham

Nomination: Jerry Lucas

I have him with 10 ALL STAR level seasons, peaking ALL NBA for 4 seasons. That's pretty good at this stage in the game.

Alt nomination: Gus Williams

Between Gus and Nique. Both high volume scoring with middling efficiencies. ~5 ALL NBA seasons. Gus seems a bit better in the playoffs, so I'll give him the alt. nomination.

OhayoKD · Post #5 » by **OhayoKD** » Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:40 pm

Vote

1. Horace Grant

(reasoning below).

2. Tatum

Strong impact profile, lots of team success, and doing it in the most talented iteration of the league.

Nomination

1 Luka Doncic
2. Marc Gasol

Would prefer to vote for gasol but may swap depending on who gets support.

Not neccesarily the most deserving player, but with Sam Jones being pushed for a while now, I'd say Grant's case is probably a better version of Jones':

Spoiler:

OhayoKD wrote:
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:

I've pointed this out before, but these box-numbers likely don't give Grant his full credit as a co-primary paint-protector on Chicago:
(if you want to check, 20 possessions are finished through 19:42 amd 40 are finished through 49:52)

Note it was very hard to make out players(besides pippen whose got a nasty case of roblox head), so i could be misattributing here and there though I used jersey numbers, names, commentator[url][/url]s, and head/body shapes the best i could. I also counted "splits" for both parties(which is why the numbers don't add up to 40)

Distribution went

Pippen/Grant
14 each

Purdue
6 or 7

Cartwright
4

Armstrong/Jordan
1 each

FWIW, Grant seemed more significantly more effective than Pippen but otoh, Pippen was trusted to deal with laimbeer far more than anyone else

All that aside, what's notable here is that it's the non-bigs who are checking rim threats the most. Not the centres. With one of the two deterring attempts, sometimes on an island, the rest of the team was enabled to try and force turnovers with suffocating pressure.

FWIW, Chicago postseason defense tended to be closer to their postseason offense than one might think.

Horace Grant also probably deserves at least some credit for the 2001 Lakers dramatically improved postseason defense(and overall) performance relative to their 2000 iteration(their rim-protection numbers in particular were significantly).

Probably fair to say he played a "key role" on 4 champions and 5 finalists with three distinct cores(though there was common ground between all 3 teams). Nothing mind blowing in terms of rs impact(similar to Sam Jones and Sharman), but there's a consistent trend in terms of playoff results:

-> Chicago improves drastically overnight as he and pippen see their roles increase in 1990, looks similar to the 91 Bulls in the first two rounds per M.O.V iirc
-> Chicago has their worst playoff run of the dynasty with his depature(despite looking pretty good without him in the RS)
-> Magic go from a first round out to a finalist(though the "real nba finals" was arguably in the West)
-> Lakers go from one of the worst champions ever to statistically maybe the best

All these teams specifically see their defense and ability to protect the paint rise and drop with his arrival and depature in the postseason.

I think if we're going to have the jones and sharmans inducted, Grant should also probably be there as well. Replication across contexts and a more clear connect between team performance and the nature of his contributions are advantages for him here I think.

TLDR: While both have eh rs profiles, unlike Sam Jones, Horace Grant has a consistent pattern of joining teams and seeing their playoff performance jump, and leaving teams and seeing their playoff performance fall, with his specific contributions correlating with the side of the floor the team jumps the most in. He also had one chance taking up a bigger role in 1994 and played like a legit no.2 on a contender. Sam Jones has no track record to speak off without the biggest impact outlier in history. Moreover, while the Bulls clearly missed Grant vs the Magic when he left, the Celtics went on their most impressive two-year playoff run with Sam Jones as a 6th man beating the 68 Lakers(highest mov ever with west), the 68 Sixers(wilt + a team that was good without him), the 69 Lakers(merger of 2nd and 3rd best team in the league, core that won a championship soon after), and the 69 Knicks(rotation that won the next year's championship and made three finals, winning two in short order). All in all, I'd say there are bigger questions around Sam Jones replicability than Grant and don't really see why Sam Jones should go ahead.

2. Marc Gasol

This omission is really weird to me:

-> Was the clear best player on a fringe contender, most notably going 2-1 up on the eventual champion 2015 Warriors before their point guard got hurt.
-> Post-prime, was the clear-cut defensive anchor on a toronto side that won a title and then contended without their best player on the back of an all-time defense: Said defense becomes all-time when he comes, and returns to mediocrity when he leaves. Team immediately turns from contender to fringe playoff team
-> Was correctly identified as the best defender in the league in 2013, and an all-time menace for opposing bigs(giannis, gasol) even post-prime
-> Was helping the Lakers post the best defense and rs record and srs in the league before injuries derailed their 2021 campaign

The comparisons that come to mind are are

already inducted Sam Cousy who
-> did not co-lead a team as close to winning as what Gasol led
-> did not show the same level impact post-prime on a winner

already getting inductee votes larry nance
-> did not co-lead a team as competitive as the grizzlies
-> never won
-> not as clear-cut of a defensive anchor

Bill Sharman
-> same as cousy except without the MVP

Gasol has yet to get a single nomination vote, I don't get it at all. Probably should have been inducted already tbh.

3. Iggy
A few years as the star(and defensive anchor) of playoff teams, and then post-injury played a key role for 3 championships and 6 final apperances over two teams. Since championship role-players are in vogue right now...

Also strong rapm for what it's worth.

4. Luka Donicic

Better peak than anyone left on the board besides Walton and argument for being the best in a vacuum. His longetivity is a knock but he was pretty much better than anyone here besides Bill in his second year in the league if not his first and while people may not be overly impressed by the round finishes and rs record, on a series to series basis, Luka's Mavs have done pretty well:

-> went toe to toe with "maybe win the title if kawhi is healthy" clippers with kawhi
-> beat "best record over the last 5 years" suns a year removed from their final run

Mavs have been a fringe contender with Luka in the playoffs and haven't been a good team without him in the regular season if you go by game instead of "few minutes without". If Walton is getting serious inductee consideration, Luka deserves some nomination love I think.

AEnigma · Post #6 » by **AEnigma** » Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:00 pm

For Chet Walker, I will point out that that we currently have no multi-time conference finalist teams unrepresented in the project after 1980. We have several in the 1940s/50s, but after that, the list is:

To me those latter two teams are separated from the former by title competitiveness. Famously, the West/Baylor Lakers never won, and none of thsoe conference runner-up series with the Lakers were even particularly close. None of those teams had particularly good SRS values either (best was 2 SRS), and three of them had losing records! In contrast, the 1975 Bulls lost by 4 points in Game 7 against the eventual champion Warriors (4-0 over the Bullets), with the Warriors down 6 entering the fourth quarter. The 1976 Suns made the Finals and were a triple overtime loss away from a Game 7 there too, while the 1979 Suns were a single basket away from making the Finals over the eventual champion Sonics (4-1 over the Bullets), with the Sonics down 8 entering the fourth quarter of Game 6.

With Walton inducted and Bob Davies soon to follow, we will have successfully represented every title team. These two teams, along with the one-time conference finalist 2002 Kings, are the post-1957 teams who were closest to winning a title. All of them were certainly ensemble efforts to a degree, and I understand how Westphal did not maintain a long enough (or otherwise outstanding enough) prime to be considered here (basically just five years of star play), but with Chet having the 1967 76ers on his résumé, he does feel like the most successful team leader remaining on the board.

OldSchoolNoBull · Post #7 » by **OldSchoolNoBull** » Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:01 pm

Ok, I have to challenge the Jerry Lucas votes. I say this as someone who likes Lucas, even considered him a while back, and who has probably been one of the project's biggest supporters of 50s/60s guys getting in - I don't see a particularly strong case vs others left on the board.

He was one of the most efficient volume scorers of his era and also an elite rebounder, but he was also a questionable defender(correct me if I'm wrong) and often(in contrast to other guys from his era that have been inducted) a significant playoff faller, and the Royals' lack of success despite having a Top 20 guy in Oscar doesn't make Lucas look particularly good(I know, I know, they kept running into Russell and Wilt).

In the RS, he's at .147 WS/48 and a +5.0 rTS.
In the PO, he's at .100 WS/48 and his TS is -3.2 from his RS.

Compare to a selection of other potential nominees who have much more impressive playoff resumes and statistical profiles(I realize we don't have BPM for Lucas, I'm just quoting myself from an earlier post):

James Worthy:
135 WS/48, 2.9 BPM, 57.8% TS
+1.8% TS from RS

Gus Williams:
.150 WS/48, 4.7 BPM, 52% TS
+1.5% TS from RS

Dan Issel:
.161 WS/48, 1.7BPM, 54.4% TS
-1.5% TS from RS

Chris Bosh: .
144 WS/48, 1.8 BPM, 55.3% TS
-1.8% TS from RS

Chet Walker:
.133 WS/48, 3.5 BPM*, 52.2% TS
-1.8% TS from RS
*only have BPM for his last two seasons

Alex English: .129 WS/48, 2.7 BPM, 55.6% TS
+0.6% TS from RS

When you look at Lucas vs, say, Issel - two guys with similar skillsets - why Lucas over Issel when Issel did it for much longer(nearly a 10k total minute difference) and had more postseason success?

Why Lucas over Worthy when Worthy was a much better/more consistent playoff performer? Also, Worthy's career RS rTS is +2.2, which looks much lower than Lucas, but if you look at only 1982-1990, before Worthy's big falloff, his rTS for that period is +5.2, actually a hair above Lucas.

Or guys like Williams and Bosh who are not only better playoff performers based on the stats above which skew offensively, but also appear to be more effective defenders?

But I'm open to counterarguments.

AEnigma · Post #8 » by **AEnigma** » Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:33 pm

I am low on Issel (especially without English being inducted first), but I agree he is not overly distinct from Lucas and offers better longevity without some of Lucas’s negative signals.

falcolombardi · Post #9 » by **falcolombardi** » Thu Apr 11, 2024 6:03 am

Vote- horace grant, full career of excellent side star, fairly portable specially for its era play

Alt vote- tatum, has build a decently long career of all star to borderline all nba level of play, very easy fit on most teams as a big 2 way wing who passes and scores

Nomination- luka donic, this season technically doesnt count yet but we are talking about a 5 year stretch of borderline to full blown mvp level of play with 3 out of 3 different strong playoffs showings.
Longevity is a step below tatum but quality of play is one ahead

Alt nomination- gus johnson. One of the few (only?) "Best player in title team" players left. Impressive playoffs showings from what i have got.

eminence · Post #10 » by **eminence** » Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:09 am

falcolombardi wrote:Vote- horace grant, full career of excellent side star, fairly portable specially for its era play

Alt vote- tatum, has build a decently long career of all star to borderline all nba level of play, very easy fit on most teams as a big 2 way wing who passes and scores

Nomination- luka donic, this season technically doesnt count yet but we are talking about a 5 year stretch of borderline to full blown mvp level of play with 3 out of 3 different strong playoffs showings.
Longevity is a step below tatum but quality of play is one ahead

Alt nomination- gus johnson. One of the few (only?) "Best player in title team" players left. Impressive playoffs showings from what i have got.

I think you mean a different Gus (Williams). The '73 Pacers won a title, but Honeycomb was playing 10 mpg.

ShaqAttac · Post #11 » by **ShaqAttac** » Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:40 am

okay

ill go

TATUM

led celts to cfs and a final, good impact stats

GRANT

4 chips

Gonna nom

Luka

he should probably win mvp ngl

Post #12 » by **penbeast0** » Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:18 pm

Vote Horace Grant Low scoring dirty work player but every team he played for improved significantly with him.

alt vote Jayson Tatum Main man for the last 5+ years on one of the most consistently competitive teams in the modern era.

Nomination: Mel Daniels: Best player on a multiple championship team and a 2 time ABA MVP. It was a weak league but probably stronger than the one Bob Davies excelled in.

Most similar modern player would be Alonzo Mourning with better rebounding but without the great shotblocking. Both became greats through sheer aggression and a willingness to fight you every inch of every possession.

alt Luka Doncic Very iffy this one and I may go back and change it. In here pretty much for stats alone as Dallas hasn't been that impressive in his tenure. And, the current era is one of stat inflation for stars so I take modern monster stat lines with a bit of a grain of salt. But, his are indeed monster stats and I am consciously trying to give more modern players a bit more leeway as I think I naturally lean to 20th century players from when I was younger.

homecourtloss · Post #13 » by **homecourtloss** » Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:31 pm

Vote: Horace Grant

Very good impact profile regardless of where he was, i.e., Chicago, Orlando, Seattle, Los Angeles, etc. He had an additive game that was highly portable, i.e., his motor on both offense and defense, defensive ability to guard multiple positions and decently defend the rim while also playing passing lanes, transition prowess, and high BBall IQ that manifested in many ways including a low turnover % (yes, he didn’t handle the ball, but watching him, he made very few lazy/bad passes), and highly positive on court,T ewwwwgre abu mbnptgfddhxx-first demeanor.

Alt Vote: Jason Tatum

He and Jokic have the best impact profiles of anyone in this new generation and look to both finish among the elite of the elites. More on him when voting for him.

Nomination: Luka Doncic

Post #14 » by **trex_8063** » Thu Apr 11, 2024 10:40 pm

Copying this from prior thread just to plug for him again.....

Dominique Wilkins

As to Dominique, I know he had his playoff failings, but his WOWY profile (referenced in the #87 thread) is respectable for this stage of the list. He was often the ONLY notable scorer his team had, and obviously would then be the focal point of the opposing defense.
So I thus just cannot see how a guy who was even capable (through his talents and durability/longevity) of scoring >26k points in a very competitive era with mostly good shooting efficiency in his prime and a GOOD turnover economy (comparable to that of LeBron James and Ray Allen in mTOV%; BETTER THAN guys like Scottie Pippen, Latrell Sprewell, and Sidney Moncrief), and doing so while often at the helm of some of the best offenses in the league for a few years in the mid-late 80s....

....who was also a good offensive rebounder, and placed 53rd in MVP win shares [fwiw], and who looks competitive via PIPM wins added [see below].....

I'll further quote this argument for him:

trex_8063 wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:Why Nique rather than his contemporary Alex English? Both great scorers and apparently great guys, Nique is clearly the better rebounder, English the better playmaker, English more versatile and without the playoff efficiency fail. Nique was flashier, had more accolades, and had the best nickname in NBA history but I don't think he was actually better. Willing to listen though.

Atlanta Hawks rORtg and league rank during Nique’s prime
‘86: +0.7 rORTG (11th/23)
‘87: +4.3 rORTG (4th/23)
‘88: +3.3 rORTG (5th/23)
‘89: +4.4 rORTG (4th/25)
‘90: +4.9 rORTG (4th/27)
‘91: +3.0 rORTG (8th/27)
‘92: -0.9 rORTG (16th/27)*
*Important to note Nique missed 40 games this^^^ year. They were +0.8 rORTG in the 42 games he played, -2.6 rORTG in the 40 he missed [+3.4 shift].
‘93: +1.3 rORTG (10th/27)
‘94 (Nique traded late season): +0.9 rORTG (12th/27)

And I want to point out who his primary supporting cast was, in descending order of playing time, for that 5-year stretch in which they were >+3.0 rORTG each and every year.....
'87: Kevin Willis, Doc Rivers, Randy Wittman, Cliff Levingston, Tree Rollins, Jon Koncak
'88: Doc Rivers, Randy Wittman, Cliff Levingston, Kevin Willis, Tree Rollins, Antoine Carr, Spud Webb, John Battle
'89: [late prime/early post-prime] Moses Malone, Reggie Theus, Doc Rivers, Cliff Levingston, John Battle, Jon Koncak, Antoine Carr, Spud Webb
'90: Moses Malone (post-prime), Kevin Willis, Spud Webb, Cliff Levingston, Doc Rivers, John Battle
'91: Doc Rivers, Kevin Willis, Spud Webb, Jon Koncak, Moses Malone (35 yrs old, very post-prime), John Battle

Dominique Wilkins with/without records in prime
‘86: 49-29 (.628) with, 1-3 (.250) without
‘87: 56-23 (.709) with, 1-2 (.333) without
‘88: 48-30 (.615) with, 2-2 (.500) without
‘89: 51-29 (.638) with, 1-1 (.500) without
‘90: 39-41 (.488) with, 2-0 without
‘91: 43-38 (.531) with, 0-1 without
‘92: 22-20 (.524) with, 16-24 (.400) without
‘93: 39-32 (.549) with, 4-7 (.364) without
‘94: 42-32 (.568) with, 4-5 (.444) without
TOTAL: 389-274 (.587)---on pace for 48.1 wins---with him; 31-45 (.408)---on pace for 33.5 wins---without him. Avg +14.7 wins added.

Prime English (‘81-’89)
PER 21.2, .139 WS/48, +2.7 BPM in 36.6 mpg
77.5 WS, cumulative VORP: 28.9

Prime Wilkins (‘86-’94)
PER 23.2, .173 WS/48, +4.5 BPM in 37.4 mpg
89.6 WS, cumulative VORP: 32.8

Career English
Per 100 poss (rs): 30.2 pts, 7.7 reb, 5.1 ast, 1.3 stl, 1.0 blk, 3.4 tov @ .550 TS%
19.9 PER, .127 WS/48, 111 ORtg/110 DRtg (+1) in 31.9 mpg
100.7 rs WS
Per 100 poss (playoffs): 31.1 pts, 7.0 reb, 5.5 ast, 0.9 stl, 0.6 blk, 2.7 tov @ .556 TS%
19.9 PER, .129 WS/48, 116 ORtg/115 DRtg (+1) in 35.7 mpg
6.5 playoff WS

Career Wilkins
Per 100 poss (rs): 34.7 pts, 9.3 reb, 3.5 ast, 1.8 stl, 0.8 blk, 3.5 tov @ .536 TS%
21.6 PER, .148 WS/48, 112 ORtg/108 DRtg (+4) in 35.5 mpg.
117.5 rs WS
Per 100 poss (playoffs): 33.8 pts, 8.9 reb, 3.4 ast, 1.7 stl, 0.8 blk, 3.6 tov @ .510 TS%
18.7 PER, .079 WS/48, 106 ORtg/112 DRtg (-6) in 38.8 mpg
3.6 playoff WS

So Nique looks better in the rs, English looks better in the playoffs (though neither made a huge playoff imprint in their careers, nor has a particularly sizeable playoff game sample size).

I'll also make note of the difference in pts/100 possessions (both rs and playoffs). You've said previously that English gives the "same scoring volume (but on better efficiency)"; but that's not actually true. English, in fact, only has ONE season where he EVER topped Nique's career avg in pts/100 possessions.

I think English’s reputation as a scorer is perhaps a little inflated by the pace and focus on offense that existed on Doug Moe’s Nuggets. During English’s tenure in Denver (third of ‘80 season, then ‘81-’90), the Nuggets had the league’s fastest pace every single year from ‘81 thru ‘89 (sometimes by >5 over the 2nd-fastest team!), and were 2nd in pace in ‘90. Consequently, if you adjust for his numbers for pace, things come back to Earth a little.

English’s best year as a scorer was probably either ‘86 (35.9 pts/100 possessions on +2.15% to league TS%) or ‘82 (30.2 pts/100 poss on TS% +5.75% to league).
Dominique’s best year as a scorer was ‘93 (39.4 pts/100 poss on TS% +3.4% to league)--->I would say Nique wins the battle of scoring peak.
Looking at longer samples, English closes the gap, but doesn't definitively take the lead.......

Prime English (‘81-’89):
32.6 pts/100 poss, +1.9% to league TS%
career: 30.2 pts/100 poss, +1.65% to league TS%
Prime Wilkins (‘86-’94): 36.9 pts/100 poss, +0.8% to league TS%
career: 34.7 pts/100 poss, +/- 0% to league TS%

Couple other measures (career rs stats, fwiw):
Pts/Missed FGA: English--- 2.468, Wilkins--- 2.29
Pts/Turnover: English---- 8.97, Wilkins--- 9.99

So Nique’s obv right there with him as a scorer, arguably marginally better [at least in the rs] imo.
wrt the playoffs, I can't help feeling like opposing defenses couldn't preferentially focus in on English in the same way they would target Nique.......because some of those Denver teams also had Kiki Vandeweghe, Dan Issel, Calvin Natt, then Michael Adams: other guys who could put the ball in the bucket. I'm not sure guys like Kevin Willis or Doc Rivers truly compare as far as guys you need to worry about going off on you, if you cheat toward shutting down Nique.

This is not to say Nique's playoff regression isn't a valid criticism; it absolutely is. But it, shall we say, carries less relevance out here at #90 (when considering all the Nique accomplished in the rs).

And maybe there's something to Nique's bigger fan/media/accolade presence. Those are the guys that drive the imaginations of new generations, and generally drive the increasing popularity of the game........and that's important to the league's evolution.

So those would be my arguments as to why Nique > English.

Though I would also favour English as a candidate above everyone we currently have on the ticket except for Grant.

Anyway, the guy described above belongs somewhere in the top 100, imo.

I'd also REALLY like to see guys like Chris Bosh, LaMarcus Aldridge, and Dan Issel gain some traction. I could fall into line behind a campaign for Terry Porter or Mo Cheeks, too. Melo, as well.

Looking at some of our candidates and other notable non-inducted players (and a few recent inductees) by PIPM career wins added (as I know it's a metric some have expressed significant confidence in or appreciation of).....

(Shawn Marion: 123.97)
Maurice Cheeks: 119.15
(Jack Sikma: 117.54)
Terry Porter: 116.64
Horace Grant: 114.81
(Tony Parker: 113.50)
**Dan Issel: 67.54 (**9-year NBA career ONLY; pro-rated for all 15 seasons would come to 112.57 [though his ABA seasons are likely to be even MORE highly rated])
Chris Bosh: 111.58
LaMarcus Aldridge: 109.02
Dominique Wilkins: 105.11
(Al Horford: 88.24)
Carmelo Anthony: 87.39
Chris Webber: 85.49
Chris Mullin: 84.82
Alex English: 82.41
(Sidney Moncrief: 78.53)
(Bill Walton: 52.38)

Post #15 » by **trex_8063** » Fri Apr 12, 2024 10:45 pm

Induction vote: Horace Grant
I like Grant's defense, offensive rebounding, GOAT-tier turnover economy, and soft floor-spacing he provides; and for a good long time. Meshed easily with several contenders in his career, his impact profile actually somewhat rivals his one-time teammate, Scottie Pippen. And he's "got the hardware", as one poster puts it.

Alternate vote: Billy Cunningham
On another look, I've decided I was underrating Cunningham; he provides a decent peak with not totally awful longevity, this in an era/league that isn't near as competitive as today [imo], though MUCH more developed than that of Bob Davies (or even Hagan). And he's got the hardware.
While I'm not enthusiastic about his inclusion, he feels like the "best of the rest" (again: a line-up of candidates I'm largely not crazy about).

If it comes to any runoff, I'm presently ranking them:
Grant > Cunningham > Tatum > Hagan > Davies

Nomination: Chris Bosh
Alt Nomination: Dominique Wilkins

Could flop these two, pending preferences of others (edit: and in fact have swapped Bosh into first).

As to Dominique, I know he had his playoff failings, but his WOWY profile (referenced in the #87 thread) is respectable for this stage of the list. He was often the ONLY notable scorer his team had, and obviously would then be the focal point of the opposing defense.
So I thus just cannot see how a guy who was even capable (through his talents and durability/longevity) of scoring >26k points in a very competitive era with mostly good shooting efficiency in his prime and a GOOD turnover economy (comparable to that of LeBron James and Ray Allen in mTOV%; BETTER THAN guys like Scottie Pippen, Latrell Sprewell, and Sidney Moncrief), and doing so while often at the helm of some of the best offenses in the league for a few years in the mid-late 80s....

....who was also a good offensive rebounder, and placed 53rd in MVP win shares [fwiw], and who looks competitive via PIPM wins added [see below].....

I'll further quote this argument for him:

Spoiler:

trex_8063 wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:Why Nique rather than his contemporary Alex English? Both great scorers and apparently great guys, Nique is clearly the better rebounder, English the better playmaker, English more versatile and without the playoff efficiency fail. Nique was flashier, had more accolades, and had the best nickname in NBA history but I don't think he was actually better. Willing to listen though.

Atlanta Hawks rORtg and league rank during Nique’s prime
‘86: +0.7 rORTG (11th/23)
‘87: +4.3 rORTG (4th/23)
‘88: +3.3 rORTG (5th/23)
‘89: +4.4 rORTG (4th/25)
‘90: +4.9 rORTG (4th/27)
‘91: +3.0 rORTG (8th/27)
‘92: -0.9 rORTG (16th/27)*
*Important to note Nique missed 40 games this^^^ year. They were +0.8 rORTG in the 42 games he played, -2.6 rORTG in the 40 he missed [+3.4 shift].
‘93: +1.3 rORTG (10th/27)
‘94 (Nique traded late season): +0.9 rORTG (12th/27)

And I want to point out who his primary supporting cast was, in descending order of playing time, for that 5-year stretch in which they were >+3.0 rORTG each and every year.....
'87: Kevin Willis, Doc Rivers, Randy Wittman, Cliff Levingston, Tree Rollins, Jon Koncak
'88: Doc Rivers, Randy Wittman, Cliff Levingston, Kevin Willis, Tree Rollins, Antoine Carr, Spud Webb, John Battle
'89: [late prime/early post-prime] Moses Malone, Reggie Theus, Doc Rivers, Cliff Levingston, John Battle, Jon Koncak, Antoine Carr, Spud Webb
'90: Moses Malone (post-prime), Kevin Willis, Spud Webb, Cliff Levingston, Doc Rivers, John Battle
'91: Doc Rivers, Kevin Willis, Spud Webb, Jon Koncak, Moses Malone (35 yrs old, very post-prime), John Battle

Dominique Wilkins with/without records in prime
‘86: 49-29 (.628) with, 1-3 (.250) without
‘87: 56-23 (.709) with, 1-2 (.333) without
‘88: 48-30 (.615) with, 2-2 (.500) without
‘89: 51-29 (.638) with, 1-1 (.500) without
‘90: 39-41 (.488) with, 2-0 without
‘91: 43-38 (.531) with, 0-1 without
‘92: 22-20 (.524) with, 16-24 (.400) without
‘93: 39-32 (.549) with, 4-7 (.364) without
‘94: 42-32 (.568) with, 4-5 (.444) without
TOTAL: 389-274 (.587)---on pace for 48.1 wins---with him; 31-45 (.408)---on pace for 33.5 wins---without him. Avg +14.7 wins added.

Prime English (‘81-’89)
PER 21.2, .139 WS/48, +2.7 BPM in 36.6 mpg
77.5 WS, cumulative VORP: 28.9

Prime Wilkins (‘86-’94)
PER 23.2, .173 WS/48, +4.5 BPM in 37.4 mpg
89.6 WS, cumulative VORP: 32.8

Career English
Per 100 poss (rs): 30.2 pts, 7.7 reb, 5.1 ast, 1.3 stl, 1.0 blk, 3.4 tov @ .550 TS%
19.9 PER, .127 WS/48, 111 ORtg/110 DRtg (+1) in 31.9 mpg
100.7 rs WS
Per 100 poss (playoffs): 31.1 pts, 7.0 reb, 5.5 ast, 0.9 stl, 0.6 blk, 2.7 tov @ .556 TS%
19.9 PER, .129 WS/48, 116 ORtg/115 DRtg (+1) in 35.7 mpg
6.5 playoff WS

Career Wilkins
Per 100 poss (rs): 34.7 pts, 9.3 reb, 3.5 ast, 1.8 stl, 0.8 blk, 3.5 tov @ .536 TS%
21.6 PER, .148 WS/48, 112 ORtg/108 DRtg (+4) in 35.5 mpg.
117.5 rs WS
Per 100 poss (playoffs): 33.8 pts, 8.9 reb, 3.4 ast, 1.7 stl, 0.8 blk, 3.6 tov @ .510 TS%
18.7 PER, .079 WS/48, 106 ORtg/112 DRtg (-6) in 38.8 mpg
3.6 playoff WS

So Nique looks better in the rs, English looks better in the playoffs (though neither made a huge playoff imprint in their careers, nor has a particularly sizeable playoff game sample size).

I'll also make note of the difference in pts/100 possessions (both rs and playoffs). You've said previously that English gives the "same scoring volume (but on better efficiency)"; but that's not actually true. English, in fact, only has ONE season where he EVER topped Nique's career avg in pts/100 possessions.

I think English’s reputation as a scorer is perhaps a little inflated by the pace and focus on offense that existed on Doug Moe’s Nuggets. During English’s tenure in Denver (third of ‘80 season, then ‘81-’90), the Nuggets had the league’s fastest pace every single year from ‘81 thru ‘89 (sometimes by >5 over the 2nd-fastest team!), and were 2nd in pace in ‘90. Consequently, if you adjust for his numbers for pace, things come back to Earth a little.

English’s best year as a scorer was probably either ‘86 (35.9 pts/100 possessions on +2.15% to league TS%) or ‘82 (30.2 pts/100 poss on TS% +5.75% to league).
Dominique’s best year as a scorer was ‘93 (39.4 pts/100 poss on TS% +3.4% to league)--->I would say Nique wins the battle of scoring peak.
Looking at longer samples, English closes the gap, but doesn't definitively take the lead.......

Prime English (‘81-’89):
32.6 pts/100 poss, +1.9% to league TS%
career: 30.2 pts/100 poss, +1.65% to league TS%
Prime Wilkins (‘86-’94): 36.9 pts/100 poss, +0.8% to league TS%
career: 34.7 pts/100 poss, +/- 0% to league TS%

Couple other measures (career rs stats, fwiw):
Pts/Missed FGA: English--- 2.468, Wilkins--- 2.29
Pts/Turnover: English---- 8.97, Wilkins--- 9.99

So Nique’s obv right there with him as a scorer, arguably marginally better [at least in the rs] imo.
wrt the playoffs, I can't help feeling like opposing defenses couldn't preferentially focus in on English in the same way they would target Nique.......because some of those Denver teams also had Kiki Vandeweghe, Dan Issel, Calvin Natt, then Michael Adams: other guys who could put the ball in the bucket. I'm not sure guys like Kevin Willis or Doc Rivers truly compare as far as guys you need to worry about going off on you, if you cheat toward shutting down Nique.

This is not to say Nique's playoff regression isn't a valid criticism; it absolutely is. But it, shall we say, carries less relevance out here at #90 (when considering all the Nique accomplished in the rs).

And maybe there's something to Nique's bigger fan/media/accolade presence. Those are the guys that drive the imaginations of new generations, and generally drive the increasing popularity of the game........and that's important to the league's evolution.

So those would be my arguments as to why Nique > English.

idk, the guy described belongs somewhere in the top 100, imo.

I'd REALLY like to see guys like LaMarcus Aldridge and Dan Issel gain some traction, too.

Looking at some of our candidates and other notable non-inducted players (and a few recent inductees) by PIPM career wins added (as I know it's a metric some have expressed significant confidence in or appreciation of).....

(Shawn Marion: 123.97)
Maurice Cheeks: 119.15
(Jack Sikma): 117.54
Terry Porter: 116.64
Horace Grant: 114.81
(Tony Parker: 113.50)
**Dan Issel: 67.54 (**9-year NBA career ONLY; pro-rated for all 15 seasons would come to 112.57 [though his ABA seasons are likely to be even MORE highly rated])
Chris Bosh: 111.58
LaMarcus Aldridge: 109.02
Dominique Wilkins: 105.11
(Al Horford): 88.24
Carmelo Anthony: 87.39
Chris Webber: 85.49
Chris Mullin: 84.82
Alex English: 82.41
(Sidney Moncrief: 78.53)
Bill Walton: 52.38

eminence · Post #16 » by **eminence** » Sat Apr 13, 2024 3:54 am

Vote #1: Bob Davies
-Best guard of the 40s/early 50s.
-Fairly consistent top 5 guy in prime (yes, not the same standard as modern, not treating it as such).
-Strong scorer and playmaker.
-Leader of the team I would say was the 2nd best of the pre-shot clock era.

Vote #2: Horace Grant
-Medieval Chris Bosh.
-Showed out as a #3 guy in multiple settings. Looked good in his brief #2 run.
-Role the sort to get underrated by contemporary accolades, so don't hold that much against him.
-Quite strong longevity.

Cunningham>Tatum>Hagan

Nomination #1: Chris Bosh
-Modern Horace Grant.
-Not cut out for #1 duty, but another great #2/#3.
-Longevity is decent at ~10 solid years.

Nomination #2: Gus Williams
-Guy I'd prefer among players with reasonable support here (most notably vs Lucas/Luka).
-One of many guys hurt when efficiency is overvalued. Showed plenty enough impact throughout his career that I'm not at all bothered by the efficiency.
-Luka would have the spot if '24 counted, but it doesn't.

OldSchoolNoBull · Post #17 » by **OldSchoolNoBull** » Sat Apr 13, 2024 9:57 am

Induction Vote #1: Billy Cunningham

Induction Vote #2: Bob Davies

The two most impressive resumes on the current ballot, imo, with primacy taken into consideration.

Nomination Vote #1: Gus Williams

Nomination Vote #2: Dan Issel

Williams is my choice of those who have nomination votes. Demonstrated good impact throughout his career and may have been the best player on a champion and two-time finalist.

Issel for all the reasons I've laid in detail before.

Post #18 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Apr 13, 2024 2:19 pm

Personal Vote:

Induction 1: Bob Davies
Induction 2: Cliff Hagan

Not a lot to explain here. These will likely continue to be my top two guys until they get in except in cases where it seems like I might make a difference in runoffs.

Nomination 1: Chris Bosh
Nomination 2: James Worthy

My mind is pretty open here, but of the players getting attention right now, I'm inclined to go with Bosh. There's no doubt that he was a legit B-list alpha, and I was extremely impressed by what he transformed himself into which enabled the Heatles to actually be something close to what they thought they could be.

I'll put Big Game James in there in the 2nd slot again. In comparison to guys like Gus Williams or Jerry Lucas, I really don't think it's close. Worthy was an exceptional player who stood out most against the strongest playoff competition.

(Re: Luka. Not my guy, but y'all know that.)

Post #19 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Apr 13, 2024 2:25 pm

Tallies:

Induction 1:

Cunningham - 3 (AEnigma, Samurai, OSNB)
Davies - 3 (trelos, eminence, Doc)
Grant - 5 (Ohayo, falco, beast, hcl, trex)
Tatum - 1 (ShaqA)

ShaqA's 2nd vote is for Grant so:

Horace Grant 6, Billy Cunningham 3, Bob Davies 3
Horace Grant is Inducted at #92.

Nomination 1:

Gus - 2 (AEnigma, OSNB)
Lucas - 2 (Samurai, trelos)
Luka - 4 (Ohayo, falco, ShaqA, hcl)
Daniels - 1 (beast)
Bosh - 3 (trex, eminence, Doc)

Going to vote 2 between Luka & Bosh:

Luka - 1 (beast)
Bosh - 0 (none)
neither - 4 (AEnigma, Samurai, trelos, OSNB)

Luka Doncic 5, Chris Bosh 3
Luka Doncic is added to Nominee list.