You can not win a title with a center such as Jokic if he can't play defence.

[Bergmaniac]

DEN lost this series a lot more due to their offense being put in shackles four times, much more than their defense.

Exactly, a basic test of whether anyone watched the series.

A really bizarre bump.

I think someone really wanted to "casually" mention that Jokic is not better than Wilt.

[Heej]

They lost this series, because their offense heavily underperformed.

The Wolves clamped them up.

And because the nuggets needed to sell out to stop Ant due to Jokic being unreliable as a backside rotator or in containing him in the PnR. The nuggets were forced to give up a free 4 on 3 every possession that Ant touched the ball and that math is impossible to win against when both teams have equivalent levels of talent. Jokic wasn't remotely good enough on defense nor offense to tilt the math back towards the Nuggets' favor. And the subpar offensive creation fed into them having less possessions with a higher EV set defense

[tsherkin]

They lost this series, because their offense heavily underperformed.

The Wolves clamped them up.

And because the nuggets needed to sell out to stop Ant due to Jokic being unreliable as a backside rotator or in containing him in the PnR. The nuggets were forced to give up a free 4 on 3 every possession that Ant touched the ball and that math is impossible to win against when both teams have equivalent levels of talent. Jokic wasn't remotely good enough on defense nor offense to tilt the math back towards the Nuggets' favor. And the subpar offensive creation fed into them having less possessions with a higher EV set defense

This isn't really what happened, though...

[capfan33]

They lost this series, because their offense heavily underperformed.

The Wolves clamped them up.

And because the nuggets needed to sell out to stop Ant due to Jokic being unreliable as a backside rotator or in containing him in the PnR. The nuggets were forced to give up a free 4 on 3 every possession that Ant touched the ball and that math is impossible to win against when both teams have equivalent levels of talent. Jokic wasn't remotely good enough on defense nor offense to tilt the math back towards the Nuggets' favor. And the subpar offensive creation fed into them having less possessions with a higher EV set defense

I think the big thing for me is that Jokic is never going to be anything meaningful defensively against good teams in the playoffs. (Except maybe if they rely on a traditional post big that Jokic can outmuscle in the post) As such, he really needs to be exceptional offensively to have merit in a top-5 discussion, and scoring under 100 points 4 times in 7 games, with a very good supporting cast (even with Murray's injury) is not that. He does get some slack considering its the Timberwolves, but under 100 in 2024 is really underwhelming for anyone that's in the conversation for offensive goat.

[tsherkin]

but under 100 in 2024 is really underwhelming for anyone that's in the conversation for offensive goat.

This doesn't make any sense. You're talking team scoring and riding that on the one guy who is the primary reason they didn't get swept. It's not his fault the rest of the team came up short. It's on the guys who were missing all those shots he created for them. The guys who made Joker have 5 assists at the half of G7 and 7 at the end of the game, despite continuing to make his usual selection of good passes.

It's odd to target Jokic for team-level scoring when the narrative the whole series long has centered around how the guys around him flat-out weren't making shots... He can't shoot for them.

[Peregrine01]

They lost this series, because their offense heavily underperformed.

The Wolves clamped them up.

And because the nuggets needed to sell out to stop Ant due to Jokic being unreliable as a backside rotator or in containing him in the PnR. The nuggets were forced to give up a free 4 on 3 every possession that Ant touched the ball and that math is impossible to win against when both teams have equivalent levels of talent. Jokic wasn't remotely good enough on defense nor offense to tilt the math back towards the Nuggets' favor. And the subpar offensive creation fed into them having less possessions with a higher EV set defense

I think the big thing for me is that Jokic is never going to be anything meaningful defensively against good teams in the playoffs. (Except maybe if they rely on a traditional post big that Jokic can outmuscle in the post) As such, he really needs to be exceptional offensively to have merit in a top-5 discussion, and scoring under 100 points 4 times in 7 games, with a very good supporting cast (even with Murray's injury) is not that. He does get some slack considering its the Timberwolves, but under 100 in 2024 is really underwhelming for anyone that's in the conversation for offensive goat.

If you can't see how this series was not reffed anything like the way the 2024 regular season was reffed, then I don't know what to tell you. The physicality allowed here was on the level of that of the late-90s Knicks/Heat series.

[OhayoKD]

And because the nuggets needed to sell out to stop Ant due to Jokic being unreliable as a backside rotator or in containing him in the PnR. The nuggets were forced to give up a free 4 on 3 every possession that Ant touched the ball and that math is impossible to win against when both teams have equivalent levels of talent. Jokic wasn't remotely good enough on defense nor offense to tilt the math back towards the Nuggets' favor. And the subpar offensive creation fed into them having less possessions with a higher EV set defense

I think the big thing for me is that Jokic is never going to be anything meaningful defensively against good teams in the playoffs. (Except maybe if they rely on a traditional post big that Jokic can outmuscle in the post) As such, he really needs to be exceptional offensively to have merit in a top-5 discussion, and scoring under 100 points 4 times in 7 games, with a very good supporting cast (even with Murray's injury) is not that. He does get some slack considering its the Timberwolves, but under 100 in 2024 is really underwhelming for anyone that's in the conversation for offensive goat.

If you can't see how this series was not reffed anything like the way the 2024 regular season was reffed, then I don't know what to tell you. The physicality allowed here was on the level of that of the late-90s Knicks/Heat series.

The refereeing in the Nuggets game 3 win was more atypical than any of the others and occured after the league basically put their thumb on the scale for the Nuggets by not suspending Murray.

[OhayoKD]

but under 100 in 2024 is really underwhelming for anyone that's in the conversation for offensive goat.

This doesn't make any sense. You're talking team scoring and riding that on the one guy who is the primary reason they didn't get swept. It's not his fault the rest of the team came up short. It's on the guys who were missing all those shots he created for them. The guys who made Joker have 5 assists at the half of G7 and 7 at the end of the game, despite continuing to make his usual selection of good passes.

It's odd to target Jokic for team-level scoring when the narrative the whole series long has centered around how the guys around him flat-out weren't making shots... He can't shoot for them.

Riding it on one guy even when he plays well can makes sense depending on the level of value one argues he generates.

As is, a disproportionate amount of Jokic's assists these playoffs have come of what I'd classify as weak or not even proper creations, and his weakness as a ball-handler relative to guards and certain wings makes it easier to blitz him out of plays and force him to settle for passes that depend on his teammates to do more to score.

[Heej]

And because the nuggets needed to sell out to stop Ant due to Jokic being unreliable as a backside rotator or in containing him in the PnR. The nuggets were forced to give up a free 4 on 3 every possession that Ant touched the ball and that math is impossible to win against when both teams have equivalent levels of talent. Jokic wasn't remotely good enough on defense nor offense to tilt the math back towards the Nuggets' favor. And the subpar offensive creation fed into them having less possessions with a higher EV set defense

I think the big thing for me is that Jokic is never going to be anything meaningful defensively against good teams in the playoffs. (Except maybe if they rely on a traditional post big that Jokic can outmuscle in the post) As such, he really needs to be exceptional offensively to have merit in a top-5 discussion, and scoring under 100 points 4 times in 7 games, with a very good supporting cast (even with Murray's injury) is not that. He does get some slack considering its the Timberwolves, but under 100 in 2024 is really underwhelming for anyone that's in the conversation for offensive goat.

If you can't see how this series was not reffed anything like the way the 2024 regular season was reffed, then I don't know what to tell you. The physicality allowed here was on the level of that of the late-90s Knicks/Heat series.

NGL mate the Warriors were doing that s*** almost 10 years ago. People have been really late to notice how much physicality has been allowed in the playoffs nowadays

[tsherkin]

Riding it on one guy even when he plays well can makes sense depending on the level of value one argues he generates.

Not really. At some point, you need contributions from your team, or you aren't going to win. This is a story which has been told and retold the entire breadth of NBA history, and which will continue for the duration of the league.

As is, a disproportionate amount of Jokic's assists these playoffs have come of what I'd classify as weak or not even proper creations, and his weakness as a ball-handler relative to guards and certain wings makes it easier to blitz him out of plays and force him to settle for passes that depend on his teammates to do more to score.

Sure, he isn't a POA attacker, that's fine. He's perhaps the most effective big we have seen in terms of bridging that gap, but 100%, he can't just iso from the top of the circle or spam PnRs to gain entry into the lane and breakdown a D that way.

I don't really think that's ultra relevant at the moment, though.

[bigboi]

They lost this series, because their offense heavily underperformed.

The Wolves clamped them up.

And because the nuggets needed to sell out to stop Ant due to Jokic being unreliable as a backside rotator or in containing him in the PnR. The nuggets were forced to give up a free 4 on 3 every possession that Ant touched the ball and that math is impossible to win against when both teams have equivalent levels of talent. Jokic wasn't remotely good enough on defense nor offense to tilt the math back towards the Nuggets' favor. And the subpar offensive creation fed into them having less possessions with a higher EV set defense

This isn't really what happened, though...

That’s exactly what happened. Watch game 1 and 2 again. Jokic was food on defense and wolves’ gameplan was to attack jokic

[tsherkin]

And because the nuggets needed to sell out to stop Ant due to Jokic being unreliable as a backside rotator or in containing him in the PnR. The nuggets were forced to give up a free 4 on 3 every possession that Ant touched the ball and that math is impossible to win against when both teams have equivalent levels of talent. Jokic wasn't remotely good enough on defense nor offense to tilt the math back towards the Nuggets' favor. And the subpar offensive creation fed into them having less possessions with a higher EV set defense

This isn't really what happened, though...

That’s exactly what happened. Watch game 1 and 2 again. Jokic was food on defense and wolves’ gameplan was to attack jokic

But that isn't what lost them the series at all. And it certainly wasn't what lost them Games 6 and 7.

[bigboi]

This isn't really what happened, though...

That’s exactly what happened. Watch game 1 and 2 again. Jokic was food on defense and wolves’ gameplan was to attack jokic

But that isn't what lost them the series at all. And it certainly wasn't what lost them Games 6 and 7.

But it is a big part of what lost them the series lol

[tsherkin]

That’s exactly what happened. Watch game 1 and 2 again. Jokic was food on defense and wolves’ gameplan was to attack jokic

But that isn't what lost them the series at all. And it certainly wasn't what lost them Games 6 and 7.

But it is a big part of what lost them the series lol

But no, actually, it really isn't. What lost them the series was their inefficacy on offense, not holding Minnesota to considerably worse offense than they produced during the RS. That, and in G7, being in the bonus very early on so they sent Minny on a parade to the foul line all 4th quarter.

Like, it wasn't subtle at all. Jokic's defense was 100% not what cost them.

[capfan33]

but under 100 in 2024 is really underwhelming for anyone that's in the conversation for offensive goat.

This doesn't make any sense. You're talking team scoring and riding that on the one guy who is the primary reason they didn't get swept. It's not his fault the rest of the team came up short. It's on the guys who were missing all those shots he created for them. The guys who made Joker have 5 assists at the half of G7 and 7 at the end of the game, despite continuing to make his usual selection of good passes.

It's odd to target Jokic for team-level scoring when the narrative the whole series long has centered around how the guys around him flat-out weren't making shots... He can't shoot for them.

Yes team scoring =/individual impact, but it jives with what I saw in the Lakers series as well, which is that when you take certain things away from him, he simply isn't able to impose his will on the game the way that Magic/Nash/Lebron/Jordan (era-relative) were able to. The book is out on him, double , take away strong-side cutting, and play him for the skip pass. And when you do this he simply doesn't have as many way to pressure the defense as those other guys, and that's the standard I'm comparing him to.

Murray not being his usual self is also definitely a major issue, but being a big, not being traditionally athletic, and also being more of an opportunistic shooter as opposed to a volume shooter limits what he can do when teams take certain things away from him in a way that isn't the case with the aforementioned players. Extremely good, even best in the league, yea sure. As good as Magic, highly doubt it.

[Heej]

But that isn't what lost them the series at all. And it certainly wasn't what lost them Games 6 and 7.

But it is a big part of what lost them the series lol

But no, actually, it really isn't. What lost them the series was their inefficacy on offense, not holding Minnesota to considerably worse offense than they produced during the RS. That, and in G7, being in the bonus very early on so they sent Minny on a parade to the foul line all 4th quarter.

Like, it wasn't subtle at all. Jokic's defense was 100% not what cost them.

Dialectical thinking. This is a both/and situation, not an either/or

[JimmyFromNz]

DEN lost this series a lot more due to their offense being put in shackles four times, much more than their defense.

Exactly, a basic test of whether anyone watched the series.

A really bizarre bump.

A basic test of whether you watched the series is if you take his assists per game at face-value. Jokic's offense was not anywhere near goat level. Turns out ball-handling is more than a minor component of offensive goodness.

What are you even talking about ? Whatever axe to grind about 'GOAT offense' you have. None of that has anything to do with my post.

[DorianRo]

He is a major liability on defense. No question.. Look at how AD just bullied and abused him all series.

[tsherkin]

But it is a big part of what lost them the series lol

But no, actually, it really isn't. What lost them the series was their inefficacy on offense, not holding Minnesota to considerably worse offense than they produced during the RS. That, and in G7, being in the bonus very early on so they sent Minny on a parade to the foul line all 4th quarter.

Like, it wasn't subtle at all. Jokic's defense was 100% not what cost them.

Dialectical thinking. This is a both/and situation, not an either/or

But no, again, this is wrong.

Denver didn't lose this series because they had trouble containing Minnesota's offense.

[Clyde Frazier]

DEN lost this series a lot more due to their offense being put in shackles four times, much more than their defense.

Bbq chicken all series. If ant wasn’t being selfish, gobert was open like 3-4 straight possessions because Jokic was too winded and not paying attention during the double. Jokic is a trash defender and it did hurt them this series. Because Minny’s whole strategy first two games was attacking the paint because Jokic doesn’t defend the rim well. Then they had to start doubling ant constantly while prevented this attack

So jokic's defense caused MPJ to give the nuggets next to nothing on offense?