Is Kobe a top 15 all-time player?

[rk2023]

Kobe is in the 11-20 range along with Bird, Pierce, and Dirk

What? How does PIerce belong in this tier?

Is this Pierce's burner account where he has Pierce > Wade?

Finding a candidate for a new signature atm, this fits the bill.

[One_and_Done]

Kobe doesn't get extra credit because players around him were less good, no more than Wilt or Russell should. Players today on average are more skilled, but either way I don't think Kobe playing today would have helped him much as I explained. The very thing that makes Kobe dangerous is the same thing that caps his efficiency from increasing; his inelastic offense.

Iggy is specifically comparing CP3 and Kobe with an era-relative lens. Yes the league is better now but Kobe was not being used in the most individually efficient way with the triangle in a league without illegal defense rules. As is, Kobe was in the top 10% of the league in efficiency at basically every type of play so it's plausible he scales up when utilized by offenses that are better optimized to take advantage of his robust skillset instead of constantly deploying Kobe in low-percentage(for the league) situations.

Kobe's strength is that he was very good at everything on offense. Moreover, even if he looks worse in the 2010's or 2020's because "the average player is better", that same logic would suggest he would look better in the 90's 80's, 70's, and 60's

So tell that to Iggy? Or to the people tooting thehorn of old time players. I am neither.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Kobe is in the 11-20 range along with Bird, Pierce, and Dirk

What? How does PIerce belong in this tier?

Is this Pierce's burner account where he has Pierce > Wade?

Finding a candidate for a new signature atm, this fits the bill.

This is like still a top 15% smart post in this topic with iggy and one and done throwing out some absolute stinkers lmao

[OhayoKD]

Kobe doesn't get extra credit because players around him were less good, no more than Wilt or Russell should. Players today on average are more skilled, but either way I don't think Kobe playing today would have helped him much as I explained. The very thing that makes Kobe dangerous is the same thing that caps his efficiency from increasing; his inelastic offense.

Iggy is specifically comparing CP3 and Kobe with an era-relative lens. Yes the league is better now but Kobe was not being used in the most individually efficient way with the triangle in a league without illegal defense rules. As is, Kobe was in the top 10% of the league in efficiency at basically every type of play so it's plausible he scales up when utilized by offenses that are better optimized to take advantage of his robust skillset instead of constantly deploying Kobe in low-percentage(for the league) situations.

Kobe's strength is that he was very good at everything on offense. Moreover, even if he looks worse in the 2010's or 2020's because "the average player is better", that same logic would suggest he would look better in the 90's 80's, 70's, and 60's

So tell that to Iggy? Or to the people tooting thehorn of old time players. I am neither.

You replied to a post that was replying to iggy. Maybe try reading?

[One_and_Done]

7 pages in and I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why peak Malone or KD were worse than Kobe.

[Cavsfansince84]

Defensible? Absolutely. I think it's defensible to have him the Top 10.

But I will say, in my tentative updated list, he fell to #16. So to answer your thread title: No, I don't think he is right now.

Just because I think a little context might answer a lot of questions: I have Dirk Nowitzki ahead of Kobe at this point. Not something I expect that most, and even most knowledgeable folk, would agree with.

Well I have them basically side by side and lean towards Dirk. I think Dirk was getting a lot of love a few years ago but now it seems like people have cooled on him more recently for whatever reason. I also entertain having Dirk over KG.

[Cavsfansince84]

If you subscribe to something like career-value, even Ben's career-calculation(He has his peak lower than you do IIRC) lands with Kobe as a comfortable top 10. And he's most certainly not using the most favorable statistical interpretations when he assesses Bryant's seasonal evals.

Well if Ben has him as top 10 based on his model I'll acknowledge that there is a statistical basis for having him top 10.

[MyUniBroDavis]

“Kobe you know how you’re one of the most focused on Double/triple teamed perimeter players of all time? What if we told you we could give you way more space and time to go to work one on one”

“Nah **** you mamba out”

This is better than the throw poop from bbref method and hope it sticks tho lol

[One_and_Done]

Unless Reddit and google are lying to me, this was Ben Taylor's last top 20 list:
Top 40 Careers

1. LeBron James
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Michael Jordan
4. Bill Russell
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Tim Duncan
8. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Kevin Garnett
10. Larry Bird
11. Magic Johnson
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Karl Malone
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Steph Curry
17. Chris Paul
18. Jerry West
19. David Robinson
20. Dr J

He doesn't appear to have Kobe top 10.

[eminence]

I'm unsure on any particular stats of Bens, but as of last fall Ben had him #12, with it conceivable Curry (#16) caught him with this season.

[70sFan]

7 pages in and I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why peak Malone or KD were worse than Kobe.

Would you like to provide any argument for Durant instead?

[JimmyFromNz]

7 pages in and I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why peak Malone or KD were worse than Kobe.

Would you like to provide any argument for Durant instead?

That sums up the essence of this thread.

Many fragmented statements with little to no evidential addition whilst suggesting the onus of proof is on the tested conventional wisdom.

[MyUniBroDavis]

An argument for KD over Kobe is gonna be more based off of what he should be or is on paper more than what he actually is

Post warriors KD can’t really get to the rim anymore, and that’s a pretty big issue, so you’re left with 2014 KD who stumbled a bit in the playoffs but was otherwise still great, but he has a lot of issues passing wise, and warriors KD which is fine but I also can understand why people handwave it away as well, since Curry was the engine of that offense

[One_and_Done]

7 pages in and I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why peak Malone or KD were worse than Kobe.

Would you like to provide any argument for Durant instead?

I mean, the stats seem to suggest what is visible to the naked eye; Durant was better on O and D, and had a skill set that makes him one of the best complementary stars of all-time. If you're an Ortg guy then KD's averages and peaks are all better than Kobe. If you look at scoring per 100 possessions to adjust he kills him there too. TS%? It's KD. Did I mention KD is almost 7 feet tall and can play 4-5 positions, while providing limited rim protection and strong D at his peak? His longevity is enough that Kobe can't use that to get ahead.

The argunent for Kobe is what? Ringzzz? KD appears to be better than him in almost every way.

[70sFan]

Durant was better on O and D,

Is there any evidence that it's true?

and had a skill set that makes him one of the best complementary stars of all-time.

I mean, Kobe didn't struggle as a complementary star next to Shaq...

If you're an Ortg guy then KD's averages and peaks are all better than Kobe.

Do you mean basketball-reference Ortg? Do you know what does this stat measure?

If you look at scoring per 100 possessions to adjust he kills him there too.

Does he?

Durant at 19-34 years old: 37.1 pp100
Kobe at 19-34 years old: 36.7 pp100

I wouldn't call it a "kill" and that's before we start adjusting for era inflation.

TS%? It's KD.

Yes, Durant was a notably more efficient scorer than Kobe. That alone doesn't make him a better basketball player though, so I'm waiting for more evidences.

Did I mention KD is almost 7 feet tall and can play 4-5 positions, while providing limited rim protection and strong D at his peak?

Durant isn't 7 feet tall, he can't and didn't play 4-5 positions (too weak for a bigman, too weak handles for a guard), so calling his rim protection "limited" is the only thing you got right in this sentence.

His longevity is enough that Kobe can't use that to get ahead.

Is it? His longevity is nothing special, he missed two full seasons in his prime and a lot of games after 2020, making his prime short and poor durability-wise.

The argunent for Kobe is what? Ringzzz? KD appears to be better than him in almost every way.

I didn't mention rings in any moment of this conversation.

Kobe's case is that he's significantly better playmaker due to his ball-handling and passing skills being on a completely different tier, which along with his scoring skillset makes him a better, more resilient offensive player for the playoffs competition. Kobe proved in 2008-10 period that he was capable of leading his team to the highest heights against top tier competition as a clear best player. That's something Durant never accomplished and KD's postseason career outside of GSW is full of underwhelming results.

His case is also a huge longevity and durability advantage.

[One_and_Done]

When you score the same or more per 100 on better efficiency you are a better scorer. I also query the 'age 19 to 34' range. Is that when both players primes occured?

You don't seem to dispute KD was better on D too, so it's just playmaking and longevity it seems. I think this is a weak argunent because Kobe showed he had little interest on maximising that skillset, and often did the opposite. KDs longevity isn't as good, but he has enough that I'm not going to rank him behind an inferior player.

KD and Kobe were contemporaries. No era adjustment beyond pace of the teams is needed, especially given that I don't see Kobe being willing to play differently anyhow.

[OhayoKD]

Unless Reddit and google are lying to me, this was Ben Taylor's last top 20 list:

He doesn't appear to have Kobe top 10.

He may not, but the outputs from his formula(with his own seasonal-evals inputted) do:

Career list - you'll see ElGee's rankings don't exactly follow his CORP numbers

2. MJ 2.81
3. LeBron 2.79
4. Russell 2.63
5. Shaq 2.59
6. Hakeem 2.56
7. Duncan 2.47
8. KG 2.43
9. Wilt 2.33
10. Magic 2.00
11. Bird 1.90
12. Oscar 1.91
13. Karl 1.98
14. Kobe [b]2.06
15. Robinson 1.94
16. Dr.J 1.84
17. West 1.75
18. Dirk 1.93
19. Nash 1.57
20. Barkley 1.38
21. CP3 1.36
22. Wade 1.25
23. Pippen 1.26
24. Moses 1.20
25. Stockton 1.33
26. Durant 1.23
27. Ewing 1.20
28. Barry 1.16
29. Miller 1.24
30. Pettit 1.03
31. Hondo 1.11
32. Curry 1.05
33. Frazier 1.01
34. Kidd 1.09
35. Pierce 1.10
36. Gilmore 1.04
37. Baylor 0.96
38. McHale 0.93
39. Drexler 0.97
40. Allen 1.11

The gap between Kobe and 12th scoring Malone is bigger than the gap between and everyone Ben ranked above Kobe for...reasons. Bird would actually be ranked 15th but Elgee is a boston fan who likes Bird's vibes so after deriving a formula for championship probability based on srs-championship correlation, inputting his own opinions for each and every season, and seeing that it didn't lead to the conclusiosn he wanted, he shifted the rankings with no explanation so that the players he preferred ended up ahead and the players he didn't like ended up behind.

Regardless by the "stat" he concocted Kobe is the 10th greatest player ever

[iggymcfrack]

There’s a gitlab rapm database that literally everyone knows sucks and have told him sucks that he continues to reference multiple times lol

Oh, FFS, it's just the easiest thing to find quickly that has old years. The good RAPM database that I actually based a lot of my opinions on was the 97-14 RAPM that used to be available in a Google spreadsheet that included both RS + PS and was prior informed. That was excellent and the leader in RAPM matched the winner of the retro POY project pretty much every single year. Unfortunately, it seems to be taken down. The fact is though, pretty much any RAPM database you use is going to find Kobe to be a massively overrated player who's not on the level of Chris Paul.

You can still find it here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20201024055547/https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm-2

Kobe is 33rd in that list, not in the 70s. Paul is higher at 11th spot, but this sample includes basically whole Kobe's career and only the best Paul seasons (outside of 2015).

If we go year by year:

2006: Kobe 6th, Paul 124th
2007: Kobe 8th, Paul 73rd
2008: Kobe 6th, Paul 26th
2009: Kobe 5th, Paul 6th
2010: Kobe 4th, Paul 22nd
2011: Kobe 32nd, Paul 7th

So much about Paul destroying Kobe in RAPM... Sorry but it doesn't really look like Paul was in a different tier than Kobe.

In what world is that the best Paul seasons? 2006, 2007, and 2010 are maybe the 3 worst seasons of his career until last year. Meanwhile, 2006-2010 is Kobe's best 5 year stretch. The only decline year there for Kobe is 2014 which doesn't even count since he only played 6 games. Also, listing CP3's rookie year, but not 2012 or 2013 is massively LOL-worthy. I appreciate you finding that database for me again though. I bookmarked it this time so I won't lose it again.

[MyUniBroDavis]

The guy that uses 7 game RAPM also uses the words “Massively LOL-worthy”

[70sFan]

In what world is that the best Paul seasons?

Aren't 2008, 2009, 2011, 2013 and 2014 among his best seasons?

2006, 2007, and 2010 are maybe the 3 worst seasons of his career until last year.

So the sample contains 3 weaker Paul seasons and 5 of his best, looks quite representative to me.

Meanwhile, 2006-2010 is Kobe's best 5 year stretch. The only decline year there for Kobe is 2014 which doesn't even count since he only played 6 games.

It also includes 1997, 1998, 1999 and 2005. I also wouldn't say that 2011-13 isn't decline years for Kobe.

Also, listing CP3's rookie year, but not 2012 or 2013 is massively LOL-worthy.

I can list them as well if you wish:

2012: Kobe 55th, Paul 11th
2013: Kobe 84th, Paul 7th

Again, this database show no evidences that Kobe is "not on the level of Chris Paul". Kobe consistently ranked inside top 6 in RAPM in his best years. His early career RAPM isn't nearly as strong, but his best seasons look actually notably better and more consistent than the best pre-2014 Paul seasons.