Bynum vs Yao

[wezbo]

Agreed especially if you pretend that Camby, Kaman, and Amare don't exist in this world.

ther pfs shhhhhhhh

[teamny1]

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bynum>camby and i'm not even going to waste my time arguing that.
kaman's numbers are inflated because everyone else on that team sucks. and he doesn't win. if you expect him to put up these sort of stats on a top 10 team, you're nuts. his stats are better than duncan's, but is he better? as far as amare, bynum dominated amare in their last matchup and amare is not much of a factor for the suns this season. just ask suns fans.

Yeah, the reigning Defensive Player of the Year sure has been a slouch this year. Tied for 2nd in RPG (with Kaman), almost a full block per game ahead of the 2nd highest in the league (which just so happens to be Kaman as well), while also leading all centers in assists. Obviously you don't want to waste your time arguing that because you'd literally be wasting your time trying to come up with anything tangible.

I agree, the Clippers are bad. So obviously he's doing a lot and playing a lot more. Oh but wait, his efficiency is (guess what) 2nd in the league as well for centers, so he's obviously "inflating" his numbers while being more efficient than everyone except Dwight. He hasn't had Elton Brand, the best player on the team the entire year, of course the team's not going to do well. I don't understand how he can be punished for doing well, but I guess that's how haters operate.

As for Amare, he's 2nd in efficiency (with that overrated guy Kaman). He's shooting an extremely high FG%. If he's not much of a factor despite being the Suns leading scorer, 2nd leading rebounder, block leader, that would literally defy basketball logic.

[Showtime:Part2]

[quote="teamny1"][/quote]

camby is good at blocking shots, not playing man defense. so good for him. big deal. i didn't realize being a better shotblocker made him a better player. fyi, you can't average 9ppg in 34 mins and call yourself the 3rd best center in the league. nope. just not going to buy it. if you really think camby>bynum you are smoking crack. bynum has a way higher FG%. the difference in their offensive abilities is like the difference between kobe and some second rate chump like kevin martin. bynum is getting slightly fewer boards in fewer minutes, so i'd say their rebounding is even. bynum's man defense>cambys. camby gets pushed around too easily.

if kaman's so good, why can't he lead his team to any wins? he has cassell, mobley, and maggette but can't get over 10 wins? a statistical analysis of why bynum>>kaman. http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/12/04/ ... ting-even/
go to the part about "the best center in LA"

as for amare, take into account the suns' pace of game and his numbers aren't that crazy anymore. oh btw, bynum has a higher fg%, in fact he has the second highest in the league. and the suns have more all-stars, but the lakers are right up there with them? amare is soooo good right?

[G35]

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I didnt wanna participate in this thread much but the things u said above were wrong. He is averaging 37-38mpg, no conditioning problems there, actually contrary to popular belief, yao is very tough and works very hard and consistently every day. Yao sometimes plays soft, but he is tough and persists through hard timest As for the rebounding, well which over 7'3+ player has been a better rebounder than yao? Injuries are a concern so i hope there wont be more haunting yao in the future.

37 minutes is the most Yao has played in his career, don't act like he has been doing this every year. He played only 30 minutes a game his first 3 years. Now these last 3 years he has pushed his minutes up; but the results aren't so good:

FG% is at an all time low
He has missed 59 games in the last 2 seasons
TO's are at an all time high

Getting to play 3 more minutes isn't resulting in better production with his ppg lower than last year, getting 1 more reb per game, half a block more a game. So maybe conditioning is an issue and it's showing up in his stats.

Yao's height is an inherent problem. He lacks mobility and it results in him being turnover prone. Bynum is much more mobile and he is only 20. Yao is in his prime and avg'g 21 and 10. Bynum's progression has him doing that in the next 2 years at the latest.

[FANOFNBA]

oden vs Curry makes more sense.

fixed... your welcome

[teamny1]

camby is good at blocking shots, not playing man defense. so good for him. big deal. i didn't realize being a better shotblocker made him a better player. fyi, you can't average 9ppg in 34 mins and call yourself the 3rd best center in the league. nope. just not going to buy it. if you really think camby>bynum you are smoking crack. bynum has a way higher FG%. the difference in their offensive abilities is like the difference between kobe and some second rate chump like kevin martin. bynum is getting slightly fewer boards in fewer minutes, so i'd say their rebounding is even. bynum's man defense>cambys. camby gets pushed around too easily.

if kaman's so good, why can't he lead his team to any wins? he has cassell, mobley, and maggette but can't get over 10 wins? a statistical analysis of why bynum>>kaman. http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/12/04/...ting-even/
go to the part about "the best center in LA"

as for amare, take into account the suns' pace of game and his numbers aren't that crazy anymore. oh btw, bynum has a higher fg%, in fact he has the second highest in the league. and the suns have more all-stars, but the lakers are right up there with them? amare is soooo good right?

My man you are one deluded guy. No, just blocking shots does not make him a better player than Bynum. However, considering he does that better, rebounds better (no they are not similar, Camby's Rebounds per 48 min is 19.6, tops in the league while Bynum's is 16.7, so don't bring up the fact that Bynum plays less than Camby) and they both don't do anything on offense except offensive rebound and receive passes to dunk it or lay it in, then Camby is better.

You just said the Clippers suck, and now you list the Clipper players as evidence that Kaman has a strong team around him?

Lakers average 80 FGA/Game while Suns average 85 FGA/Game. Suns only score about 2.5 points more per game than the Lakers do. Yeah, the Suns pace absolutely destroys the Lakers.

Those last two sentences...I don't know what you were going for there.

Anyway I'm done supplying facts and numbers for this pointless argument. I'll resume my smoke cracking now and stop smoking it when Bynum, since he's the 2nd best C in the West behind Yao evidently, make the All Star game since the coaches select the best of the best. I already ordered my 08 Bynum All Star Jersey!!

Edit: That link of yours doesn't work.

2nd Edit: I must be on crack since I keep forgetting to mention things. I read that article before about the Wins Produced. However, going by that same article, Kaman will have more WP than Bynum will. "But, But, Bynum's WP48 is higher than Kaman, therefore, Bynum>Kaman." True, it is higher. However, there is no chance in this beautiful game that Bynum would be able to play 48 min since he would most definitely foul out before then. Even in that same article it has him at 6.0 fouls per 48 minutes.

Besides if you really want to get to the point of that article, it was about Kobe vs Bynum since Bynum's WP48 is higher than Kobe's. I guess Bynum is better than that 2nd rate chump Kobe and that 3rd rate chump Kevin Martin then.

[MnM_McgradyMing]

37 minutes is the most Yao has played in his career, don't act like he has been doing this every year. He played only 30 minutes a game his first 3 years. Now these last 3 years he has pushed his minutes up; but the results aren't so good:

FG% is at an all time low
He has missed 59 games in the last 2 seasons
TO's are at an all time high

Getting to play 3 more minutes isn't resulting in better production with his ppg lower than last year, getting 1 more reb per game, half a block more a game. So maybe conditioning is an issue and it's showing up in his stats.

Yao's height is an inherent problem. He lacks mobility and it results in him being turnover prone. Bynum is much more mobile and he is only 20. Yao is in his prime and avg'g 21 and 10. Bynum's progression has him doing that in the next 2 years at the latest.

It seems you that only thing you look at is stats, try watching some games before you make any judgements. In a new system Yao is the cornerstone of the offence and every night defences are keying in on him, 2-3 people EVERY night. He doesn't jsut put up 20/10, he helps his teammates by drawing double teams and passing the ball out. That doesn't show up on the stats sheet, which is the only thing you ever look at.

And even if yao isnt producing 25ppg like last season, he still doing a lot better than what his stats look like, so try watch some games.

[Myth_Breaker]

10 pages of so poor learning comprehence from the part of certain Yao fans, still not getting that it's not about who is better NOW (obviously Yao, and by far), but who will be better for FUTURE to build around. But it can hardly surprise considering some of them don't even know what "potential" means...

That being said, even though it's a comparison for future, I'd rather wait for the end of the season with making it.

Sigh... 2 pages more and nothing changed...

[Myth_Breaker]

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What? I like watching him play, but I'm not a Yao fan. Potential is uncertain, so I'd question your full understanding or of the concept.

Really, Einstein?! Freakin' unbelievable!!! Yes, potential IS uncertain, everybody knows that, yet potential IS what we're talking about - at least those who managed to comprehend the issue at hand; a task in which you failed miserably.

Andrew Bynum is not a sure thing. Yao is... and for those of us who have watched him play... a top 2 center in the NBA. Will Bynum ever be a top 2 center in the NBA? I'm sure some of you are already completely convinced of that based on a great run and some youtube clips.

I'm sure you can find some better arguments than putting words in other people's mouths... though, on the other hand, I'm not so sure.

I've said before and I'll say it again. To avoid rehashing the same old arguments, go back and read all 10 pages, some of them actually make a little sense.

Yep, especially these comments of yours.

[G35]

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It seems you that only thing you look at is stats, try watching some games before you make any judgements. In a new system Yao is the cornerstone of the offence and every night defences are keying in on him, 2-3 people EVERY night. He doesn't jsut put up 20/10, he helps his teammates by drawing double teams and passing the ball out. That doesn't show up on the stats sheet, which is the only thing you ever look at.

And even if yao isnt producing 25ppg like last season, he still doing a lot better than what his stats look like, so try watch some games.

I see that if stats don't back up your argument then you start making assumptions. I have watched Yao and his game but I used stats to talk about his CONDITIONING. That has nothing to do with his role in the offense.

As he plays MORE minutes his stamina doesn't show he can maintain a high level of play.

Yao is franchise player. He is a dominant force. You can build an offense around him.

But YOU have to also be realistic about his weaknesses also and one of them is injuries and conditioning. Perhaps it's his commitment to the Chinese nat'l team; I don't know. But he is playing more minutes without more production. That's just the bottom line.

He is now out of the Van Gundy offense so that isn't a crutch you can point to anymore. Yao has inherent weaknesses that I haven't seen him eliminate since he has come into the league. Teams that send double teams and have active hands give him problems. Yao and Dwight both have TO issues. Also I think his height doesn't allow him to establish good post position against those stronger players (ones that have lower center of gravitys) so he has to take more jumpshots and turnaround shots instead of going towards the basket. Which is why he is shooting less than 50% which is not good for someone who has the claim of best C in the game........

[Baller 24]

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Yep, especially these comments of yours.

Too bad you guys only use stats as your argument, and btw the argument has been changed on will Bynum be better then Yao in the future?

[hayden]

If you watched any Clipper games this season, you would know that Kaman > Bynum. He is more productive, more consistent and has much much better footwork than Bynum.

[Baller 24]

If you watched any Clipper games this season, you would know that Kaman > Bynum. He is more productive, more consistent and has much much better footwork than Bynum.

Oh yeah definitely, Kaman Id say currently is playing like and putting up stats of a top 3 center in the league.

18pts, close to 14reb. and 2.9blks is very impressive from his prior seasons.

[SabasRevenge!]

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Yep, especially these comments of yours.

Please, step back, take a deep breath.

Thoughtfully reading and responding to posts, even if the debate is passionate, is a much better way to go about this than getting really emotional and packing every response with generic insults.

Thanks.

I'm done with these ridiculous Bynum threads, you all have fun.

[SDChargers#1]

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Oh yeah definitely, Kaman Id say currently is playing like and putting up stats of a top 3 center in the league.

18pts, close to 14reb. and 2.9blks is very impressive from his prior seasons.

That sounds about right. I know another Laker fan said top 3, but I will be a little more realistic and say top 5. Kaman is a having a great year where he is playing on a team with Maggette and a bunch of scrubs. Even though Bynum outplayed him the first time they met I would still say that Kaman is the 3rd best C in the league right now (for the record I don't consider Amare a center).

I would say the top 5 looks like this...

1a) Dwight - Based on this year I got to give it to him, but it was close real close.

1b) Yao - His FT% almost got him the not as the top guy, but I can't ignore 15 rpg.

3. Kaman

4. Camby - Bynum has already surpassed him offensively. But I will take Camby's DPOY defense over Bynum's above average defense.

5. Bynum - Cmon guys are you really going to argue this. Bynum has literally gotten the best of Amare, Kaman, Chandler, and a lot of the lesser big men this year. He has put up decent numbers against Dwight (7 blocks in that game) and Camby (although he was shut down in one of there meetings). The only people who have been able to stop him this year are Yao and Perkins (with help defense from KG). That is pretty impressive even if you ignore the stats.

P.S. It ain't just Laker fans who think very highly of Andrew Bynum

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7657106

Titled "Andrew Bynum may become an Elite Center"

[Myth_Breaker]

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Too bad you guys only use stats as your argument,

Where did I use stats? Show me. On the contrary, I've said it's a bit too early for comparing them even only in aspect of potential: but it doesn't mean I should let go some (Please Use More Appropriate Word) arguments of Yao supporters unanswered.

and btw the argument has been changed on will Bynum be better then Yao in the future?

Again: where was it changed? The OP was about building around Bynum vs. Yao considering Bynum's getting better every day: to me the meaning of this is clear.

[Myth_Breaker]

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Please, step back, take a deep breath.

Thoughtfully reading and responding to posts, even if the debate is passionate, is a much better way to go about this than getting really emotional and packing every response with generic insults.

Thanks.

I'm done with these ridiculous Bynum threads, you all have fun.

It's fortunate for you that I got annoyed, so you can conveniently focus on this aspect: on the other hand, it's not going to hide that you had nothing to answer my specific arguments.

[tsherkin]

1a) Dwight - Based on this year I got to give it to him, but it was close real close.

1b) Yao - His FT% almost got him the nod as the top guy, but I can't ignore 15 rpg.

Also, it's fair to say that shooting over 60% trumps 49.2%. Yao's in the middle of a career-best rebounding season though, and he's scoring 22 ppg for the third-straight season. So yeah, these rankings I agree with.

3. Kaman

Can't really fault this ranking either; Kaman's doing the 18/14/2 thing on 48% shooting (75% from the line at 5.7 FTA/g). Adding 3 bpg, I'm inclined to say more 1c) than 3, though.

He's second in the league in rebounding, blocking shots very well (notably, he's posting 1.4 BLK/shooting foul, which is very good; Camby, generally the best in the league, is at 2.05).

In fact, it's difficult to rank Yao ABOVE Kaman this year, especially since Kaman is exerting a more noticeable impact on D. More BPG, a better BLK/shooting foul margin, Yao's at +3.6 defensive points per 100 possessions and Kaman's at -1.5, Kaman's floor time is marked by a 3.1% DROP in opponent eFG% and Yao's is marked by an INCREASE of 1.4% (and this is minding that Houston is 3rd-best in the league at defensive efficiency and the Clippers are 10th, so it's not like Yao's all alone on D).

I'd be inclined to say that, at least for this season (or to this point in the season, more specifically), Kaman should be 1b) and Yao should be 1c).

4. Camby - Bynum has already surpassed him offensively. But I will take Camby's DPOY defense over Bynum's above average defense.

My MOM has already passed him offensively; Camby has never been a scorer. He has been, and remains, the best shot-blocker in the association and one of the best rebounders. He is also an underrated passer. But yes, his defensive impact is significant when he's on the floor.

5. Bynum - Cmon guys are you really going to argue this. Bynum has literally gotten the best of Amare, Kaman, Chandler, and a lot of the lesser big men this year. He has put up decent numbers against Dwight (7 blocks in that game) and Camby (although he was shut down in one of there meetings). The only people who have been able to stop him this year are Yao and Perkins (with help defense from KG). That is pretty impressive even if you ignore the stats.

For this season, I don't think it's much fair to argue this. What other significant centers are there in the league?

You're talking about Amare, Al Jefferson, Chandler, Ilgauskas and Shaq as the only others...

Unless you consider Tim Duncan to be a center. I tend to, given his style of play and the fact that 82games.com traditionally supports this notion and that his coach routinely refers to him as a pivot man, as their 4th Q center, etc.

But this season, would be 4th and Camby would be 5th, leaving Bynum 6th.

If you prefer to think of Duncan as a 4 because he plays next to Fabricio Oberto, that's fine but consider that Oberto is a 21 mpg player and Francisco Elson takes a lot of mid-range jumpers. Those are pretty much your other options at the 5 and while they combine to play 37 mpg, Duncan still spends a crapload of time in the low post and functioning in the classic role of your great NBA center. He's their interior defensive anchor, a shot-blocker and help defender and his offense predominantly comes from setting up down low.

To whit, he's taken 424 shots this season and 358 of them have been from in the paint or the low post. He's taken 51 shots from the mid-range zones, or an average of about 1.8 shots per game away from the post.

Just because Duncan CAN step outside doesn't mean he does so with great frequency. Also, he's shooting 5/16 from the bottom of the circle, so one imagines he's not looking for the shot all that often (about once every other game, in fact).

Then again, he's still shooting 50%, dropping 19/11/3 and blocking 1.7 shots in 33 minutes a game. That's Tim Duncan; he's over 30, posting a career-low in MPG and he's still one of the 4 best centers in the league. Oh, and he's not playing defense at his usual caliber.

So my comment here is explicitly "to this point in the season" and not a projection for the final rankings. Duncan is annually one of the three or four best players in the league when he's healthy, and that's in an off year.

But yes, I'd consider Bynum to be a top 6 center right now, top 5 if you don't categorize players by position the same way I do (e.g. by role and style of play).

He's played very well.

Ilgauskas is doing the 13/10 thing and playing good D, shooting nearly as well as Yao from the line but he's not as efficient on offense as Bynum, shooting about 18% lower from the field.

Chandler? He's scoring about as much as Bynum (only 1 ppg less) and he's shooting over 60% from the field for the second straight year, so he's really not that far off in terms of scoring efficiency. He is, in fact, posting a TS% just a hair above Dwight Howard's. Chandler is taking 7.97 FGA/g, e.g. fewer than Bynum, and drawing fouls at 0.47 FTA/FGA, which is better than Bynum, though he's only shooting 66.1% (which is, incidentally, the third-best mark of his career).

Still, the noticeable difference here is that Chandler doesn't score like Bynum; you can't play the Chris Paul card, because Chandler's only assisted on 54% of his baskets, which is actually less than your average big man. Bynum himself is at 57%.

But you notice the difference in second-chance points; Chandler's at 4.4 offensive boards a game for the second straight year, or 5.04 ORBD/40 and Bynum's at 4.12 ORBD/40.

You could make quite a legitimate argument along the Chandler/Bynum axis, I have to say.

But what I do know is that Bynum is a lot more polished down low offensively and is infinitely more capable of establishing and maintaining a low post seal. He's more reliable as a scoring weapon whereas Chandler's a really nasty garbage man.

They have nearly identical shot distribution, getting all their baskets in the same basic area, though Chandler dunks it a little less often. Chandler's actually a little more efficient inside, but Bynum does a lot better on those longer shots, shooting over 36% eFG on his jumpers compared to Chandler at just under 31%.

Chandler's been quietly playing quite effectively in New Orleans; he doesn't get a lot of pub for it.

Bynum has four games at 20+ points and 6 other games at or above 16 points.

Chandler has only 2 games at 20+ but 5 other games at 16+. He hasn't peaked as high as a scorer but he's otherwise been scoring pretty steadily at a similar rate to Bynum.

Anyway, I'd argue that he's at least in the argument as comparable to Bynum and consequently in the argument for top 5-7 center in the league.

Shaq's dipped pretty low this year, especially ITO turnovers and fouls and is too unhealthy to be considered top 5. Amare is too poor on defense and not good enough a rebounder to be top 5, regardless of his offensive prowess; his FG% is very much a product of his association with Steve Nash; we all know he can score without Nash but at a considerably lower level of efficiency and that was pre-injury. He's a fine player Nash or no and likely an All-Star even without Nash but he's not top 5, Duncan or no.

Jefferson is someone to consider but he scores like Zach Randolph; acceptable to good FG%, horrible at drawing fouls, mediocre to bad defense at his position (though Jefferson is very much only playing the 5 because Minny's REAL center is the perennially injured Theo Ratliff; if this were a healthy season, he wouldn't be in this discussion because he'd be a 4 instead of a 5).

And that's it.

Even in the broadest and most generous of senses, the list of centers which compare to or exceed Bynum this year includes only 7 other players, which means that at the absolute WORST, Bynum's the 8th best center in the league.

And that assumes that you put Chandler, who's arguably AS good as Bynum, AHEAD of Drew. It assumes you put Amare ahead of Bynum.

And then it assumes that Duncan's a center, and that Camby, Kaman, Yao and Dwight are all ahead of him as well. Of course, THIS portion is reasonable, I'm just being thorough.

So again, at WORST, you're talking about the 8th best center in a 30-team league, which would make him something like 73rd percentile.

But realistically, Amare isn't as valuable as Bynum because of his defensive and rebounding deficiencies and because Bynum's a significantly better passer and a legitimate low post scorer as opposed to a PF masquerading as a center for matchup advantages.

So now he's #7.

But then you have to justify why Chandler's better... and you can't. Chandler isn't as good a passer or shot-blocker and the rebounding gap isn't so big as to be a real justification. Bynum is also a more skilled scorer.

So ultimately you're forced to rank Bynum no lower than 6th in the league and 5th if you don't consider Duncan a center.

That's pretty damned good, whether he approaches Dwight or not.

[Myth_Breaker]

Tsherkin, as to Duncan also bear in mind he's at the stage when conserves energy in regular season to utilize it in playoffs. It was already clear last season and becomes even more pronounciated now. I feel it's safe to assume that once playoffs come, TD will be top bigman again (especially considering not only raw numbers, but also intangibles): unless there will be some great matchup with KG in the Finals that will verify that notion.

[etopn23]

How hasn't this been locked yet?