Is Kobe a top 15 all-time player?

[Cavsfansince84]

Kobe and KD are an interesting comparison for me. I have them both in the teens tier, but go back and forth with their relative placements.

Scoring isn't the only thing either did, but that's where both are getting most of their value from and Durant just does it so much more efficiently, career 113 TS+ versus a season high of 107 TS+ for Kobe. So I tend to give Kevin the slight edge.

Currently have my 12-19 tier as Oscar, West, Dr. J, Dirk, KD, Kobe, Admiral, KG.

It's kind of strange because I could have swore that for most of the last 5 years people thought of KD as being objectively the better player but in the last year or so it seems like its swung back towards Kobe(at least on here). To where having KD ahead of Kobe is thought of as a wrong opinion. Not that I feel strongly about one being ahead of the other but that's how it seems to me. I think they are at a very similar level but KD's scoring is more resilient which might be enough to push him ahead but KD's just missed so many games since 2019.

[AEnigma]

No, but he’s not the player in typical top 15s with the weakest case (Bird’s is worse, Hakeem’s and Durant’s might be worse).

Hakeem should be safe if people appreciate team context and defence (which implicitly they must for Garnett to also not have a “weaker” case than Kobe). And like Kobe, any postseason-focused analysis should be providing a comparative advantage to playoff fallers.

If someone thinks offense>defense,

They can think that but it is not well supported by most history of the sport and is especially not well supported at his position.

centers are neutered in 2023,

Hakeem is the least affected centre of all the all-timers…

and the +/- data paints Hakeem as a second/third tier superstar,

What plus/minus data? He was not Lebron tier, or necessarily Minnesota Garnett tier, but otherwise he stacks up well with pretty much anyone who had a 14+ year prime.

I can see it. Hakeem’s also not a Kareem/Shaq/Dirk quality big (let alone Jokic).

????? Why should he need to be when he is several tiers above them defensively…

[OhayoKD]

No, but he’s not the player in typical top 15s with the weakest case (Bird’s is worse, Hakeem’s and Durant’s might be worse).

Hakeem should be safe if people appreciate team context and defence (which implicitly they must for Garnett to also not have a “weaker” case than Kobe). And like Kobe, any postseason-focused analysis should be providing a comparative advantage to playoff fallers.

If someone thinks offense>defense, centers are neutered in 2023, and the +/- data paints Hakeem as a second/third tier superstar, I can see it. Hakeem’s also not a Kareem/Shaq/Dirk quality big (let alone Jokic).

There isn't +/- data for Hakeem beyond an 8-game sample(read: very tiny). There is raw data which presents him as a regular season peer for Magic and Jordan over concentrated samples or extended ones(much larger sample). and there is his teams being the biggest playoff overperformers of the era. There is also his archetype being the most valuable type of player across nba history

People can think "Dwight>Shaq" or "CP3>Duncan" because "playmaking>postscoring" and "defense>offense" but thinking something is not the same as having a good reason to. A center just won a comfortable chip after being the most valuable player over the last 3 years. The top 3 of the Ballot were all bigs, the top 2 +/- ers of 20-23 are centers. Unless you're using a wildly unconventional standard(not based on winning in some way), trying to say a 2-way center is a 2nd tier superstar because "offense>defense" or "centers are nuetered in 2023" is probably just wrong.

[KobesScarf]

I do have him inside top 15 and I don't think any active player outside of Curry and LeBron have a strong argument over Kobe for career value.

I don’t see how you can say Chris Paul doesn’t have a strong argument. He could pass Kobe for career games played this year. Meanwhile in 26 year RAPM, Chris Paul ranks #3 overall behind only LeBron and KG while Kobe ranks #73 overall behind Ron Harper and Chuck Hayes.

thanks for proving why this stats is meaningless

Kobe was healthier in the playoffs than Paul, but he also sabotaged a dynasty because he didn’t like being the #2 and literally quit on his team at halftime of a Game 7 in 2006. Personally I’d have Paul far ahead of Kobe. I don’t think it’s even particularly close.

you gotta be trolling. Chris Paul's own mom and dad wouldn't rank him above Kobe

[MyUniBroDavis]

I do have him inside top 15 and I don't think any active player outside of Curry and LeBron have a strong argument over Kobe for career value.

I don’t see how you can say Chris Paul doesn’t have a strong argument. He could pass Kobe for career games played this year. Meanwhile in 26 year RAPM, Chris Paul ranks #3 overall behind only LeBron and KG while Kobe ranks #73 overall behind Ron Harper and Chuck Hayes.

thanks for proving why this stats is meaningless

Kobe was healthier in the playoffs than Paul, but he also sabotaged a dynasty because he didn’t like being the #2 and literally quit on his team at halftime of a Game 7 in 2006. Personally I’d have Paul far ahead of Kobe. I don’t think it’s even particularly close.

you gotta be trolling. Chris Paul's own mom and dad wouldn't rank him above Kobe

But we just say them rank him above Kobe in this thread

[ceiling raiser]

Hakeem should be safe if people appreciate team context and defence (which implicitly they must for Garnett to also not have a “weaker” case than Kobe). And like Kobe, any postseason-focused analysis should be providing a comparative advantage to playoff fallers.

If someone thinks offense>defense, centers are neutered in 2023, and the +/- data paints Hakeem as a second/third tier superstar, I can see it. Hakeem’s also not a Kareem/Shaq/Dirk quality big (let alone Jokic).

There isn't +/- data for Hakeem beyond an 8-game sample(read: very tiny). There is raw data which presents him as a regular season peer for Magic and Jordan over concentrated samples or extended ones(much larger sample). and there is his teams being the biggest playoff overperformers of the era. There is also his archetype being the most valuable type of player across nba history

People can think "Dwight>Shaq" or "CP3>Duncan" because "playmaking>postscoring" and "defense>offense" but thinking something is not the same as having a good reason to. A center just won a comfortable chip after being the most valuable player over the last 3 years. The top 3 of the Ballot were all bigs, the top 2 +/- ers of 20-23 are centers. Unless you're using a wildly unconventional standard(not based on winning in some way), trying to say a 2-way center is a 2nd tier superstar because "offense>defense" or "centers are nuetered in 2023" is probably just wrong.

I love Hakeem’s game, but Jokic is miles better offensively. His passing is incredible and he’s a better shooter. Defensively it’s a massive chasm but I don’t know if Hakeem has the same impact today even if he is DPOY each year.

[KobesScarf]

I don’t see how you can say Chris Paul doesn’t have a strong argument. He could pass Kobe for career games played this year. Meanwhile in 26 year RAPM, Chris Paul ranks #3 overall behind only LeBron and KG while Kobe ranks #73 overall behind Ron Harper and Chuck Hayes.

thanks for proving why this stats is meaningless

Kobe was healthier in the playoffs than Paul, but he also sabotaged a dynasty because he didn’t like being the #2 and literally quit on his team at halftime of a Game 7 in 2006. Personally I’d have Paul far ahead of Kobe. I don’t think it’s even particularly close.

you gotta be trolling. Chris Paul's own mom and dad wouldn't rank him above Kobe

But we just say them rank him above Kobe in this thread

Nah CP3's parents gotta have good sense since they raised him. I think the ones in this thread are just hardcore Kobe haters

[Cavsfansince84]

I love Hakeem’s game, but Jokic is miles better offensively. His passing is incredible and he’s a better shooter. Defensively it’s a massive chasm but I don’t know if Hakeem has the same impact today even if he is DPOY each year.

I don't agree with this idea that how a player would perform in the 'current nba' which is an ever changing thing should determine how guys are ranked comparatively. Much like how guys who use the 3 pt shot a lot wouldn't be nearly as effective in the 60's & 70's & even 80's/90's to a large degree. I mean if we look at the eras in which Hakeem's defense would be just as impactful as it was in his playing day it's basically 2014 and prior. Which is around 87% of the league's history. Should that 13% which came after him really matter when we evaluate how good Hakeem was as a player?

[OhayoKD]

If someone thinks offense>defense, centers are neutered in 2023, and the +/- data paints Hakeem as a second/third tier superstar, I can see it. Hakeem’s also not a Kareem/Shaq/Dirk quality big (let alone Jokic).

There isn't +/- data for Hakeem beyond an 8-game sample(read: very tiny). There is raw data which presents him as a regular season peer for Magic and Jordan over concentrated samples or extended ones(much larger sample). and there is his teams being the biggest playoff overperformers of the era. There is also his archetype being the most valuable type of player across nba history

People can think "Dwight>Shaq" or "CP3>Duncan" because "playmaking>postscoring" and "defense>offense" but thinking something is not the same as having a good reason to. A center just won a comfortable chip after being the most valuable player over the last 3 years. The top 3 of the Ballot were all bigs, the top 2 +/- ers of 20-23 are centers. Unless you're using a wildly unconventional standard(not based on winning in some way), trying to say a 2-way center is a 2nd tier superstar because "offense>defense" or "centers are nuetered in 2023" is probably just wrong.

I love Hakeem’s game, but Jokic is miles better offensively. His passing is incredible and he’s a better shooter. Defensively it’s a massive chasm but I don’t know if Hakeem has the same impact today even if he is DPOY each year.

The team that played the Nuggets closest was the Lakers whose best postseason player was...Anthony Davis, surgery demanding injury and all. As far as a modern prototype, he's a pretty decent comp. Giannis took an excellent team to 7 with his co-star out last year and the year before won a championship 2 years removed from pushing a 50-60-win team + an all-time 2-way wing to the brink. As far as RAPM is concerned, the highest scoring player over the last 3-years was Embid, also not to dissimilar of an offensive comp with weaker defense.

Of course you could argue the league is more skilled and the talent pool has grown and shooting and passing and blah blah blah....but that's as true for the Magics and the Jordans and the Birds and the Wests and the Oscars as it would be for Hakeem. Would it be reasonable to drop them from the top 15 too?

[OhayoKD]

I love Hakeem’s game, but Jokic is miles better offensively. His passing is incredible and he’s a better shooter. Defensively it’s a massive chasm but I don’t know if Hakeem has the same impact today even if he is DPOY each year.

I don't agree with this idea that how a player would perform in the 'current nba' which is an ever changing thing should determine how guys are ranked comparatively. Much like how guys who use the 3 pt shot a lot wouldn't be nearly as effective in the 60's & 70's & even 80's/90's to a large degree. I mean if we look at the eras in which Hakeem's defense would be just as impactful as it was in his playing day it's basically 2014 and prior. Which is around 87% of the league's history. Should that 13% which came after him really matter when we evaluate how good Hakeem was as a player?

They wouldn't be as effective because they'd be alot more effective...

[OhayoKD]

Kobe and KD are an interesting comparison for me. I have them both in the teens tier, but go back and forth with their relative placements.

Scoring isn't the only thing either did, but that's where both are getting most of their value from and Durant just does it so much more efficiently, career 113 TS+ versus a season high of 107 TS+ for Kobe. So I tend to give Kevin the slight edge.

Currently have my 12-19 tier as Oscar, West, Dr. J, Dirk, KD, Kobe, Admiral, KG.

It's kind of strange because I could have swore that for most of the last 5 years people thought of KD as being objectively the better player but in the last year or so it seems like its swung back towards Kobe(at least on here). To where having KD ahead of Kobe is thought of as a wrong opinion. Not that I feel strongly about one being ahead of the other but that's how it seems to me. I think they are at a very similar level but KD's scoring is more resilient which might be enough to push him ahead but KD's just missed so many games since 2019.

It's KD whose efficacy plummets without a volume-trade off when his responsibilities increase. Unless resiliency is defined as putting up points on mediocre playoff defenses with minimal attention or non-scoring responsibility...

[Cavsfansince84]

They wouldn't be as effective because they'd be alot more effective...

If you can assume that a coach is going to just let them spam 3's like they would today sure but that's a big if imo. I mean, do they just walk in and say 'look, I'm here from the future and just trust me when I say we need to triple or quadruple the amount of 3's we are taking' or if he's born back then there's no way he'd emphasize it near as much and expect to shoot 10 3's a game.

[Cavsfansince84]

It's KD whose efficacy plummets without a volume-trade off when his responsibilities increase. Unless resiliency is defined as putting up points on mediocre playoff defenses with minimal attention or non-scoring responsibility...

Well how exactly are you defining it? I'm not saying there's a huge gap. Just looking at playoffs numbers though(of which we have a pretty huge sample for both players) I think KD's are better. Now is that due in part to getting to play on the Warriors? Maybe but I think Kobe getting to play with Shaq didn't hurt him either and that's where a huge bulk of his playoff games come from.

[iggymcfrack]

thanks for proving why this stats is meaningless


you gotta be trolling. Chris Paul's own mom and dad wouldn't rank him above Kobe

But we just say them rank him above Kobe in this thread

Nah CP3's parents gotta have good sense since they raised him. I think the ones in this thread are just hardcore Kobe haters

If I’m a “Kobe hater”, it’s just frustration from all those years rooting for the Lakers and watching him sink them in the playoffs year after year. Shaq was my favorite player until Dirk became a superstar and it was so FRUSTRATING watching Kobe ignore the most dominant player on the planet so he could take terrible contested jumper after terrible contested jumper. Can we at least agree that Kobe’s the most selfish superstar in NBA history? If he would have just used his incredible passing skill instead of playing hero ball all the time he could have been a legit top 10 player and won at least 7 rings. But his ego couldn’t handle ever trusting anyone else.

[dygaction]

Kobe and KD are an interesting comparison for me. I have them both in the teens tier, but go back and forth with their relative placements.

Scoring isn't the only thing either did, but that's where both are getting most of their value from and Durant just does it so much more efficiently, career 113 TS+ versus a season high of 107 TS+ for Kobe. So I tend to give Kevin the slight edge.

Currently have my 12-19 tier as Oscar, West, Dr. J, Dirk, KD, Kobe, Admiral, KG.

It's kind of strange because I could have swore that for most of the last 5 years people thought of KD as being objectively the better player but in the last year or so it seems like its swung back towards Kobe(at least on here). To where having KD ahead of Kobe is thought of as a wrong opinion. Not that I feel strongly about one being ahead of the other but that's how it seems to me. I think they are at a very similar level but KD's scoring is more resilient which might be enough to push him ahead but KD's just missed so many games since 2019.

It is those bandwagoners who ditch KD the fastest. When KD left Warriors to form Nets big 3s, people were trying to get on the KD train as it seemed he was on his way to #3 Finals MVPs, which would have strengthened his legacy.

[iggymcfrack]

Honestly, people always talk about the shooters that didn’t take a lot of threes as guys who would be way better in the modern era, but I think Kobe’s actually toward the top of the list. If he grew up idolizing LeBron’s all-around game in an era where people rate the top players on analytics and team play, he could have been getting triple doubles all the time and been a MUCH more impactful offensive player. But instead, he grew up in the shadow of Jordan when PPG and ALWAYS taking the last shot were king. When Iverson would win an MVP over Shaq based on PPG with terrible efficiency. So Kobe figured that selfishness was the way to be recognized as an all-time great. I can’t imagine how much better he would have been if he grew up in a different basketball culture.

Kobe is often compared to KD and rightly so. Both are tremendous all-time volume scorers and above average defenders who just fail to really lift their teammates offensively the way you’d an expect an all-time great player to do. The difference is that KD CAN’T pass like a superstar. He just doesn’t have the reaction time or the court vision to impact an offense the way that Curry or CP3 or Jokic or even Dirk did with his gravity. Kobe had all that in spades. He had stretches where he played more of a pass-first game and it was sublime. His court vision and mental game are up there with any SG in the history of the NBA. He just wasn’t a willing passer because that skill wasn’t celebrated when he was in his prime. In LeBron’s first Cleveland run, I remember him being excoriated time after time for making the right basketball play instead of playing hero ball and taking the last shot no matter what. It was all about the shadow of Jordan.

And the irony is Jordan was a much more willing passer than Kobe. If the right play was to give the ball to Kerr or Paxson for the game winning shot, he was more than happy to give it up. It’s just that in the illegal defense era, it was hard to help, and most of the time, the right basketball play actually was for Jordan to just take his man one-on-one and shoot. If Jordan played with modern rules he probably would have seen a big uptick in assists and we’d remember his incredible passing almost as much as we remember his clutch scoring.

This one fatal flaw based on a fundamental misunderstanding limited Kobe and relegated him to the tier of Malone, Stockton, and Wade instead of the Curry/Dirk level where he rightly belonged. Purely on talent he was at least a top 15 player and maybe even top 10, but constantly making the wrong play in crunch time led to him being one of the worst clutch shooters of any great all-time offensive player and caused him to consistently underperform on the biggest stages when defenses were keyed in to his tendencies. When I think about Kobe, I’ll always think about what could have been instead of just celebrating the level that he actually reached due to the poor strategy he exhibited in the moments that mattered most.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Bro was a laker fan this is a top 10 plot twist of 2023

[Cavsfansince84]

It is those bandwagoners who ditch KD the fastest. When KD left Warriors to form Nets big 3s, people were trying to get on the KD train as it seemed he was on his way to #3 Finals MVPs, which would have strengthened his legacy.

There might be some of that though I think it's also true on here where there are less KD fans.

[70sFan]

In what world is that the best Paul seasons?

Aren't 2008, 2009, 2011, 2013 and 2014 among his best seasons?

2006, 2007, and 2010 are maybe the 3 worst seasons of his career until last year.

So the sample contains 3 weaker Paul seasons and 5 of his best, looks quite representative to me.

Meanwhile, 2006-2010 is Kobe's best 5 year stretch. The only decline year there for Kobe is 2014 which doesn't even count since he only played 6 games.

It also includes 1997, 1998, 1999 and 2005. I also wouldn't say that 2011-13 isn't decline years for Kobe.

Also, listing CP3's rookie year, but not 2012 or 2013 is massively LOL-worthy.

I can list them as well if you wish:

2012: Kobe 55th, Paul 11th
2013: Kobe 84th, Paul 7th

Again, this database show no evidences that Kobe is "not on the level of Chris Paul". Kobe consistently ranked inside top 6 in RAPM in his best years. His early career RAPM isn't nearly as strong, but his best seasons look actually notably better and more consistent than the best pre-2014 Paul seasons.

When we were discussing the best player never to win a ring the other day and comparing West and Paul, I said that I thought ‘08, ‘09, ‘13, ‘15, ‘16, ‘17 were Paul's best seasons. And honestly, part of the reason it was tough to determine Paul's peak is that '08 and '09 were the best box years, but he had better impact seasons later when he was a better defender. From an impact perspective, 2013 is the only year I'd consider one of his top 4 seasons.

So if you think the sample isn't representative and it doesn't show Paul being better than Kobe, it means you think that Paul is in a different tier than Bryant because of... 2015-17 period. Think about it twice and come to the conclusion.

[ShaqAttac]

Bro was a laker fan this is a top 10 plot twist of 2023

i call cap