Is Kobe a top 15 all-time player?

[iggymcfrack]

Aren't 2008, 2009, 2011, 2013 and 2014 among his best seasons?


So the sample contains 3 weaker Paul seasons and 5 of his best, looks quite representative to me.


It also includes 1997, 1998, 1999 and 2005. I also wouldn't say that 2011-13 isn't decline years for Kobe.


I can list them as well if you wish:

2012: Kobe 55th, Paul 11th
2013: Kobe 84th, Paul 7th

Again, this database show no evidences that Kobe is "not on the level of Chris Paul". Kobe consistently ranked inside top 6 in RAPM in his best years. His early career RAPM isn't nearly as strong, but his best seasons look actually notably better and more consistent than the best pre-2014 Paul seasons.

When we were discussing the best player never to win a ring the other day and comparing West and Paul, I said that I thought ‘08, ‘09, ‘13, ‘15, ‘16, ‘17 were Paul's best seasons. And honestly, part of the reason it was tough to determine Paul's peak is that '08 and '09 were the best box years, but he had better impact seasons later when he was a better defender. From an impact perspective, 2013 is the only year I'd consider one of his top 4 seasons.

So if you think the sample isn't representative and it doesn't show Paul being better than Kobe, it means you think that Paul is in a different tier than Bryant because of... 2015-17 period. Think about it twice and come to the conclusion.

The sample as a whole had CP3 roughly as far ahead of Kobe as I have him. You're the one that said it wasn't representative due to catching more of CP3's prime so I just pointed out to you that it actually got almost all of Paul's decline years while missing most of his peak while it caught all of Kobe's prime and only missed decline years for him.

[Jaivl]

Let's all be real; if a GM today had the #1 pick, the benefit of knowing how good these guys could be, and a choice between a young Kobe, Giannis, Jokic, KD, Curry, Luka and Harden, then Kobe wouldn't go top 5.

Yes he would.

[One_and_Done]

Come on man. If you were building a team for today's NBA you would take Giannis, Jokic, Curry and KD ahead of him without blinking.

[70sFan]

Come on man. If you were building a team for today's NBA you would take Giannis, Jokic, Curry and KD ahead of him without blinking.

I certainly wouldn't pick Durant over Bryant, the rest are in the heart of their primes so it's hard to answer.

[Jaivl]

Come on man. If you were building a team for today's NBA you would take Giannis, Jokic, Curry and KD ahead of him without blinking.

And that's still top 5, lol.

(Without considering I would take him easily over at least KD)

[One_and_Done]

Come on man. If you were building a team for today's NBA you would take Giannis, Jokic, Curry and KD ahead of him without blinking.

And that's still top 5, lol.

(Without considering I would take him easily over at least KD)

Sure, but you agree you're saying you'd take him 4th or 5th at best without thinking about it, so really it's just haggling over Luka and Harden. I think if you're honest with yourself you'd take Luka. I sure would.

[70sFan]

Come on man. If you were building a team for today's NBA you would take Giannis, Jokic, Curry and KD ahead of him without blinking.

And that's still top 5, lol.

(Without considering I would take him easily over at least KD)

Sure, but you agree you're saying you'd take him 4th or 5th at best without thinking about it, so really it's just haggling over Luka and Harden. I think if you're honest with yourself you'd take Luka. I sure would.

When did he say that?

[OhayoKD]

Come on man. If you were building a team for today's NBA you would take Giannis, Jokic, Curry and KD ahead of him without blinking.

And that's still top 5, lol.

(Without considering I would take him easily over at least KD)

Sure, but you agree you're saying you'd take him 4th or 5th at best without thinking about it, so really it's just haggling over Luka and Harden. I think if you're honest with yourself you'd take Luka. I sure would.

everyone should take luka

[One_and_Done]

On paper Harden seems to be the better player too, certainly in the regular season. I'm not sure I'd go that far given his playoff limitations though.

[iggymcfrack]

Come on man. If you were building a team for today's NBA you would take Giannis, Jokic, Curry and KD ahead of him without blinking.

I certainly wouldn't pick Durant over Bryant, the rest are in the heart of their primes so it's hard to answer.

Yeah, I've made the most posts in the thread about Kobe being overrated by far and I'd still take young Kobe over KD in a heartbeat. Even just looking at their actual careers I like his better than wherever KD's likely to end up, and I really do think he'd be a lot better team player in almost any scenario other than getting drafted to Shaq's team right as Jordan was retiring and hero ball was at it's peak.

[iggymcfrack]

And that's still top 5, lol.

(Without considering I would take him easily over at least KD)

Sure, but you agree you're saying you'd take him 4th or 5th at best without thinking about it, so really it's just haggling over Luka and Harden. I think if you're honest with yourself you'd take Luka. I sure would.

everyone should take luka

I'd probably go:

1. Jokic
2. Giannis
3. Curry
4. Luka
5. Kobe

I'm a lot less confident in Giannis at #2 than I would have been a year ago though. Following up a medicore regular season with another serious injury makes me really wonder what kind of durability and longevity he will have going forward. This is now 3 of the last 4 playoffs where he's missed games with injuries. That freight train style of play with all the running and jumping and contact can't be easy on his joints.

[Primedeion]

He's easily top ten TBH.

Top 15 peak OAT/best player in the world st his best.

Insane longevity.

Best postseason/player on the best postseason team of all-time/clear 1a/1b on a top five team in history.

Far and away the best player on a top ten all-time team (09 Lakers)

GOAT level offensive impact at his offensive peak

Legit All-Defensive level guard for a fair amount of seasons and one of the best perimeter defenders in the league at his defensive peak (01)

The most clutch player of the 2000's or at least in the argument

Elite impact

Far and away the best player on teams that made three straight Finals appearances won back-to-back titles

Five titles and seven Finals appearances while playing better playoff comp than any player in modern history

More All-NBA selections than all but one player in history

More All-NBA 1st team selections than all but player one player in history

Top ten offensive player OAT by peak and career

Etc, etc

Insane player.

[Salieri]

Sure, but you agree you're saying you'd take him 4th or 5th at best without thinking about it, so really it's just haggling over Luka and Harden. I think if you're honest with yourself you'd take Luka. I sure would.

everyone should take luka

I'd probably go:

1. Jokic
2. Giannis
3. Curry
4. Luka
5. Kobe

I'm a lot less confident in Giannis at #2 than I would have been a year ago though. Following up a medicore regular season with another serious injury makes me really wonder what kind of durability and longevity he will have going forward. This is now 3 of the last 4 playoffs where he's missed games with injuries. That freight train style of play with all the running and jumping and contact can't be easy on his joints.

The question was who to pick if you were a GM, knowing their potential in advance?

Giannis shouldn't be picked before Curry, c'mon. Curry will give your team much more bang for your buck, he's been the definition of a game-breaker during all his prime. A walking cheat code.

If you're a GM and you care more about winning championships than about reaching the player's full potential, Jokic is the only option I'd consider before picking Curry. And I'm not even sure about that, Curry was the core of the team that stopped LeBron from ascending to consensus GOAT status.

If you think Kerr was a genius who implemented a system that nobody could have seen the way he did, then fine. Curry is a "system" player that owes much of his success to Kerr's brilliance. I'd disagree with that take but I'd understand his relatively low pick.

But if you think Kerr's idea was very good but somewhat obvious (for a competent coach) and sooner or later a good coach would end up taking the ball off Curry's hands, then Curry's success is highly repeatable in a wide array of team comps. And, from that list, Curry's success beats and laps anyone else's from a GM standpoint, exception made of Kobe, ironically.

Thinking as a GM with deep pockets, for me, the list would be sorted like this:

1. Curry
2. Jokic
3. Kobe
4. Giannis
5. Luka

The list could change a lot in several years, of course. I can only judge according to what I've seen, and I don't know how Luka would fare with a good supporting cast that fits his style. He could end up much higher than fifth. Also, Jokic could start an era of dominance that would propel him above Curry without discussion.

But Giannis' potential has been seen, IMHO. And while he's an amazing player, he doesn't break the game in the way Jokic and Curry do. In that regard, he reminds me of KD: a brilliant player who will perform like the best in the league at his position, but whose presence won't catapult his team's performance beyond his skills. He is "just" an outstanding player, not an outstanding player and an offensive system merged into one entity. Despite his all-time, almost unprecedented numbers at the rim, again.

[MyUniBroDavis]

everyone should take luka

I'd probably go:

1. Jokic
2. Giannis
3. Curry
4. Luka
5. Kobe

I'm a lot less confident in Giannis at #2 than I would have been a year ago though. Following up a medicore regular season with another serious injury makes me really wonder what kind of durability and longevity he will have going forward. This is now 3 of the last 4 playoffs where he's missed games with injuries. That freight train style of play with all the running and jumping and contact can't be easy on his joints.

The question was who to pick if you were a GM, knowing their potential in advance?

Giannis shouldn't be picked before Curry, c'mon. Curry will give your team much more bang for your buck, he's been the definition of a game-breaker during all his prime. A walking cheat code.

If you're a GM and you care more about winning championships than about reaching the player's full potential, Jokic is the only option I'd consider before picking Curry. And I'm not even sure about that, Curry was the core of the team that stopped LeBron from ascending to consensus GOAT status.

If you think Kerr was a genius who implemented a system that nobody could have seen the way he did, then fine. Curry is a "system" player that owes much of his success to Kerr's brilliance. I'd disagree with that take but I'd understand his relatively low pick.

But if you think Kerr's idea was very good but somewhat obvious (for a competent coach) and sooner or later a good coach would end up taking the ball off Curry's hands, then Curry's success is highly repeatable in a wide array of team comps. And, from that list, Curry's success beats and laps anyone else's from a GM standpoint, exception made of Kobe, ironically.

Thinking as a GM with deep pockets, for me, the list would be sorted like this:

1. Curry
2. Jokic
3. Kobe
4. Giannis
5. Luka

The list could change a lot in several years, of course. I can only judge according to what I've seen, and I don't know how Luka would fare with a good supporting cast that fits his style. He could end up much higher than fifth. Also, Jokic could start an era of dominance that would propel him above Curry without discussion.

But Giannis' potential has been seen, IMHO. And while he's an amazing player, he doesn't break the game in the way Jokic and Curry do. In that regard, he reminds me of KD: a brilliant player who will perform like the best in the league at his position, but whose presence won't catapult his team's performance beyond his skills. He is "just" an outstanding player, not an outstanding player and an offensive system merged into one entity. Despite his all-time, almost unprecedented numbers at the rim, again.

What makes Kerr a genius is that he did it without the template. Curry would have absurd impact wherever he goes

[Salieri]

What makes Kerr a genius is that he did it without the template. Curry would have absurd impact wherever he goes

Absolutely. I'm not denying Kerr's genius or Curry's impact.

My point was pondering if Kerr had a Gordian knot style epiphany that nobody could have thought of, or if the change was bound to be seen by any given competent coach with keen eye and imagination.

Because, given that Curry might arguably be the best off-ball player of all time, if you don't give the ball to someone else, you don't tap into that extra potential and his impact, although still great, would be a bit diminished. At least that's how I see it.

[OhayoKD]

everyone should take luka

I'd probably go:

1. Jokic
2. Giannis
3. Curry
4. Luka
5. Kobe

I'm a lot less confident in Giannis at #2 than I would have been a year ago though. Following up a medicore regular season with another serious injury makes me really wonder what kind of durability and longevity he will have going forward. This is now 3 of the last 4 playoffs where he's missed games with injuries. That freight train style of play with all the running and jumping and contact can't be easy on his joints.

The question was who to pick if you were a GM, knowing their potential in advance?

Giannis shouldn't be picked before Curry, c'mon. Curry will give your team much more bang for your buck, he's been the definition of a game-breaker during all his prime. A walking cheat code.

If you're a GM and you care more about winning championships than about reaching the player's full potential, Jokic is the only option I'd consider before picking Curry. And I'm not even sure about that, Curry was the core of the team that stopped LeBron from ascending to consensus GOAT status.

If you think Kerr was a genius who implemented a system that nobody could have seen the way he did, then fine. Curry is a "system" player that owes much of his success to Kerr's brilliance. I'd disagree with that take but I'd understand his relatively low pick.

But if you think Kerr's idea was very good but somewhat obvious (for a competent coach) and sooner or later a good coach would end up taking the ball off Curry's hands, then Curry's success is highly repeatable in a wide array of team comps. And, from that list, Curry's success beats and laps anyone else's from a GM standpoint, exception made of Kobe, ironically.

Thinking as a GM with deep pockets, for me, the list would be sorted like this:

1. Curry
2. Jokic
3. Kobe
4. Giannis
5. Luka

The list could change a lot in several years, of course. I can only judge according to what I've seen, and I don't know how Luka would fare with a good supporting cast that fits his style. He could end up much higher than fifth. Also, Jokic could start an era of dominance that would propel him above Curry without discussion.

But Giannis' potential has been seen, IMHO. And while he's an amazing player, he doesn't break the game in the way Jokic and Curry do. In that regard, he reminds me of KD: a brilliant player who will perform like the best in the league at his position, but whose presence won't catapult his team's performance beyond his skills. He is "just" an outstanding player, not an outstanding player and an offensive system merged into one entity. Despite his all-time, almost unprecedented numbers at the rim, again.

Not sure he has been "seen" with a mediocre postseason coach and I'm not sure why you're fixating on offense with a two-way big who generates as much value on the other end. If KD was one of the best defenders ever anchoring all-time defenses you might have a point.

[Salieri]

Not sure he has been "seen" with a mediocre postseason coach and I'm not sure why you're fixating on offense with a two-way big who generates as much value on the other end. If KD was one of the best defenders ever anchoring all-time defenses you might have a point.

I focus on offense because, the way I see it, it's much more difficult nowadays for a player to carry a defensive system by himself the way they can do on offense. The advances in offensive schemes/freedom and the offense-slanted rules make offensive fulcrums possible to a much greater degree.

Curry, Jokic and LeBron have demonstrated it's possible to achieve that status of one-man-offense and carry a team to a title. Luka and Harden could be mentioned here too, although without the ultimate success so far.

On the other hand, becoming the equivalent on defense like Hakeem or Russell did back in the day appears to be much more difficult, and more relying on team performance. Maybe Gobert? Giannis and AD fall a bit short despite their excellent defense, IMO.

It's not that there are lesser players on defense or that I don't value defense as much as offense. It's that the game has evolved towards a concept of hive-mind when it comes to that side of the ball. Defensive game-breakers have a harder time by default. A good system trumps a good defensive player. On offense, a good enough player is the system.

Or at least that's my take, speaking from ignorance. Maybe my impressions are all wrong, in fact I don't know what the hell I'm doing posting on this board, it's above my paygrade

[iggymcfrack]

everyone should take luka

I'd probably go:

1. Jokic
2. Giannis
3. Curry
4. Luka
5. Kobe

I'm a lot less confident in Giannis at #2 than I would have been a year ago though. Following up a medicore regular season with another serious injury makes me really wonder what kind of durability and longevity he will have going forward. This is now 3 of the last 4 playoffs where he's missed games with injuries. That freight train style of play with all the running and jumping and contact can't be easy on his joints.

The question was who to pick if you were a GM, knowing their potential in advance?

Giannis shouldn't be picked before Curry, c'mon. Curry will give your team much more bang for your buck, he's been the definition of a game-breaker during all his prime. A walking cheat code.

If you're a GM and you care more about winning championships than about reaching the player's full potential, Jokic is the only option I'd consider before picking Curry. And I'm not even sure about that, Curry was the core of the team that stopped LeBron from ascending to consensus GOAT status.

If you think Kerr was a genius who implemented a system that nobody could have seen the way he did, then fine. Curry is a "system" player that owes much of his success to Kerr's brilliance. I'd disagree with that take but I'd understand his relatively low pick.

But if you think Kerr's idea was very good but somewhat obvious (for a competent coach) and sooner or later a good coach would end up taking the ball off Curry's hands, then Curry's success is highly repeatable in a wide array of team comps. And, from that list, Curry's success beats and laps anyone else's from a GM standpoint, exception made of Kobe, ironically.

Thinking as a GM with deep pockets, for me, the list would be sorted like this:

1. Curry
2. Jokic
3. Kobe
4. Giannis
5. Luka

The list could change a lot in several years, of course. I can only judge according to what I've seen, and I don't know how Luka would fare with a good supporting cast that fits his style. He could end up much higher than fifth. Also, Jokic could start an era of dominance that would propel him above Curry without discussion.

But Giannis' potential has been seen, IMHO. And while he's an amazing player, he doesn't break the game in the way Jokic and Curry do. In that regard, he reminds me of KD: a brilliant player who will perform like the best in the league at his position, but whose presence won't catapult his team's performance beyond his skills. He is "just" an outstanding player, not an outstanding player and an offensive system merged into one entity. Despite his all-time, almost unprecedented numbers at the rim, again.

I have Curry #8 all-time, but I don’t see much of case for him over Jokic honestly. Curry’s made the playoffs in 9 different seasons. None of those beat Jokic’s career playoff averages in PER. One beat Jokic’s career average in WS/48. One beat his career average in BPM. And Jokić might not even have reached his peak yet. Also, Jokic’s incredible all-time passing lifts his teammates even more than Curry’s gravity. I think defensively they’re pretty similar. Both are slightly above average, but neither one has much of an impact compared to a typical defender. Jokić has also been incredibly durable while Curry has struggled with injuries for much of his career. What is even the case for Curry? I don’t see it.

[lessthanjake]

Kobe is clearly a top 15 player of all time. He has 5 titles and an MVP. The number of guys with a resume that even comes close to that is less than 15 (and really is exactly 10 other guys, unless we go far enough back to include guys like Mikan and Cousy—which most don’t do). So it seems to me like Kobe is clearly a top 11 all time player. The only question is where he falls in that top 11. To me, he falls near the bottom of it. He’s pretty clearly below the following: Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, and Magic. For the rest of them—Bird, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Duncan, Curry, and Kobe—there could be some debate. I am strongly inclined to put Russell ahead because, even though there were fewer players and teams and it was a long-ago era, it’s just extremely hard to argue with 11 titles and 5 MVPs. I also have a strong inclination to put Shaq above Kobe because Shaq was by far the superior player when they were on a team together (though Shaq was at his very peak, and Kobe was not), and I just think prime Shaq was at a level that Kobe never reached. I also feel like, for me, it’d be very tough to put Kobe above Duncan—whose career overlapped a lot with Kobe and who I regarded at the time as a better/more impactful player. But I think that’s in part because I rate Duncan more highly than most people do. There’s a thread on Steph vs. Kobe, and I’ve made my thoughts clear there that I think Steph is superior—though, like Duncan, this one seems fairly debatable (indeed, the results in the poll in that thread are essentially 50/50). That leaves Wilt and Bird. To me, while it’s close, Kobe goes above Bird. Bird had a relatively short career, and has *a lot* of playoff shortcomings and subpar performances that people forget or don’t know about because they did not come in the era of social media. Kobe edges him out IMO. That just leaves Wilt. Wilt is really hard to rank because his statistical dominance is off the charts, but he only won two titles in an era where there weren’t actually that many teams, and his titles both came in an era where he was not at his statistical peak. So I think Wilt just has a really big range for where he could be put within this group. That said, I’m inclined to put Wilt above Kobe, because it’s just hard to get past the numbers. Thus, that’d leave me having Kobe at #10 (at least at the moment—as with most people, my all-time rankings can sometimes change by the day). I think one could optimistically put Kobe as high as #5 or #6 (though I think you’d have to be pretty charitable to Kobe and quite harsh on some of these other guys to get Kobe all the way up there), and could put him as low as #11. I don’t think he could reasonably be placed below #11 though.

[Mikeball]

Hes top 15. High level peak and sustained longevity make him top 15 for me