Where would Peak Wade rank today?

[Pelly24]

The disparity in responses between this and the kobe thread are pretty wild. Kobe's case for "not optimized in era" is much stronger.

Would take Giannis and Jokic. Embid theoretically better but needs a healthy postseason. Steph may have a case too. Small slashers should stand out less in today's league. In a league where a near 40-Lebron is harder to stop at the rim than shai or ja statistically, not seeing how people are expecting Wade to improve.

Wade's 2008-2009 season was almost on par with LeBron's best RS arguably in a lesser era for offenses to thrive compared to now.

Based on?

That aside, lesser era for offenses isn't meaningful either way inofitself. The point is to stand out from the field, not to up your raw production.

Honestly I don't know what you mean by the small slashers comment. 2008-2009 wade took 581 shots at the rim in 71 games, which is over 7 attempts a game, and he Made 66% of those shots. Thats without the benefit of the spacing today or a great second option scorer/shooters. I could see Wade getting 8 or 9 attempts at the rim, maybe more, and he'd get to the free throw line even more. Wade was also a legit 6'4" 225 while running a 4.4 and having MJ-esque body control. He was an overwhelming force against defenses even when they were set. He wasn't someone who was trying to scurry around people and had to compensate for a lack of size or force — he was the force, and he destroyed.

Wade would be at worst a top 5 player. Gimmie Jokic and Giannis over him (maybe) and thats it. Embiid if he finally carries over to the finals. Luka is probably as good, but Wade has defense. Steph is just older. SGA? Gimmie wade.

[TheGOATRises007]

The disparity in responses between this and the kobe thread are pretty wild. Kobe's case for "not optimized in era" is much stronger.

Would take Giannis and Jokic. Embid theoretically better but needs a healthy postseason. Steph may have a case too. Small slashers should stand out less in today's league. In a league where a near 40-Lebron is harder to stop at the rim than shai or ja statistically, not seeing how people are expecting Wade to improve.

Wade's 2008-2009 season was almost on par with LeBron's best RS arguably in a lesser era for offenses to thrive compared to now.

Based on?

That aside, lesser era for offenses isn't meaningful either way inofitself. The point is to stand out from the field, not to up your raw production.

When I say almost on par arguably, I mean you can argue they were close in impact. Not that Wade matched LeBron's impact.

And I think most of the impact metrics bear it out. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[TheGOATRises007]

Top 3.

Arguable 1st.

Wade's 2008-2009 season was almost on par with LeBron's best RS arguably in a lesser era for offenses to thrive compared to now.

How do you view him compared to Kobe and Paul (pre injury) in 09? As well as his peak stacked next to Jokic & Giannis - probably the most important characters of this question.

In an era relative sense, I think he’s third out of the latter group (imo <= Kobe but > Paul at each’s peak). I’d think top 3 today as well

I think Kobe, Paul and Wade are relatively the same tier in 09, but I've become much higher on Kobe for his 2008 and 2009 seasons respectively. And I'm much higher on Paul now than I was then. I don't think there's a clear cut best player from that trio. If I had to pick 1, I'd lean Kobe, but it's very close.

I would pick 22/23 Jokic over any version of Wade and 21 Giannis over any version of Wade as well.

That said, even though I referenced Wade's 2008-2009 season for peak, I think his peak was in 2006 personally.

[GSP]

6'5 190lbs Sga a 30% 3pt shooter on 3 attempts a game like peak Wade just EVISCERATED the number 1 defense in Nba w/ best rim protection and elite perimeter defender in Mcdaniels for 34,6,7,2,1 on .772ts......missed all of his 3pt attempts.......

Okc a top 5 offense and Sga has been a top 5 player this season.......but some think Wades offense wouldnt be as effective today some ppl need to actually watch games and evaluate skillsets of these players. Stats should always come in play but context always Wade no worse than top 3

[MiamiBulls]

Don't understand the SGA-Dwyane Wade comparisons; SGA can shoot, Dwyane Wade was high volume slasher who really couldn't shoot despite having fairly judicious shot selection for his time. Prime Wade shot 38% from 11FT to 22FT on the court, below league average. SGA in 2024 shoots 10% above league average from 11FT-22FT on the court. Prime Wade was consistently a 76%-77% Free Throw Shooter which was well below league average for a Guard during his prime. SGA shoots 91% from the FT Line, which is the one of the most valuable parts of his game; SGA is Top 15 in the league in Free Throw Rate amongst players with a 20%+ Usage Rate while also being Top 5 in the NBA in FT%.

Wade as a 6'4" slasher in an NBA where the league average in rim finishing is now 69%, wouldn't standout the same way he would have 4-6 years ago when the league average in rim finishing was 65%. Giannis shoots over 50% of his shots at the rim and finishes at a 80% clip; Wade isn't coming close to that type of rim finishing.

In a 2019 NBA, Wade likely would have been in contention for best player in the league, but with the extreme offensive explosion since then with a heightened premium on shooting proficiency, it's a comfortable bet to say Wade wouldn't be a Top 3 player in a 2024 NBA.

[HeartBreakKid]

SGA plays more like Kobe Bryant than he does Wade. When I think of SGA I think of cerebral guy who can pull up on people.

[Eagle4]

Don't understand the SGA-Dwyane Wade comparisons; SGA can shoot, Dwyane Wade was high volume slasher who really couldn't shoot despite having fairly judicious shot selection for his time. Prime Wade shot 38% from 11FT to 22FT on the court, below league average. SGA in 2024 shoots 10% above league average from 11FT-22FT on the court. Prime Wade was consistently a 76%-77% Free Throw Shooter which was well below league average for a Guard during his prime. SGA shoots 91% from the FT Line, which is the one of the most valuable parts of his game; SGA is Top 15 in the league in Free Throw Rate amongst players with a 20%+ Usage Rate while also being Top 5 in the NBA in FT%.

Wade as a 6'4" slasher in an NBA where the league average in rim finishing is now 69%, wouldn't standout the same way he would have 4-6 years ago when the league average in rim finishing was 65%. Giannis shoots over 50% of his shots at the rim and finishes at a 80% clip; Wade isn't coming close to that type of rim finishing.

In a 2019 NBA, Wade likely would have been in contention for best player in the league, but with the extreme offensive explosion since then with a heightened premium on shooting proficiency, it's a comfortable bet to say Wade wouldn't be a Top 3 player in a 2024 NBA.

Again in more spaced out league with smaller bigs how would Wade's finishing ability stagnate or get worse it makes no sense. I personally don't see the SGA comparison, I see a bigger stronger more cerebral Morant. Ja avgs 28 ppg in this current nba so how would Wade go from being in contest for best player in 2019 but not 2024 when teams are more focused on having multiple shooters on the floor for slashers like Jimmy, Morant, Zion etc?

Giannis has absurd finishing now but one equate that to less resistance at the him, he's bigger than 99% of players in the leauge, that wouldn't be the case in the mid to late 00'. In fact his finishing numbers were right there with prime Wade's in 2017 before the new offensive friendly rules kicked in.

Not to mention he he was a better shooter than Giannis, his game wasn't just PURELY run and dunk style, he used an array of post moves, shot fakes and his mid range game was very respectable. I'm seeing a trend of some posters implying Wade was Rondo-like shooting-wise where you could just leave him open and not pay. That just wasn't the case, he wasn't Dirk or Nash but he could hit shots. Honestly his best comparison is a more athletic SUSTAINED playoff Jimmy Butler.

If Wade had a team similar to 2018 Houston (he really doesn't even need THAT amount of shooting around him to thrive) then I can easily see him avg 31-33ppg 8apg 6rpg, with elite defense and thats arguably the best player in the league. I can see Jokic, maybe Giannis over him but that's about it.

[wafflzgod]

Top 3. Even in a relative-to-era sense I think he at least holds his own against Jokic and Giannis (though I would still lean them), but as much of his brilliance comes from being one of the best slashing guards ever, he could take even more advantage of that in today's more spaced out game

[Jaqua92]

Where would peak Wade rank in todays league?

Foil Baiting, Speedy- Rim Pressuring Guards, With a reliable mid range to keep the teams honest but not a good 3-PT Shooter; I mean I’d venture for top 10 as a safe bet? I don’t see why he couldn’t rack up SGA level production with more spacing, and lanes to attack. I’m not very knowledgeable about D-Wade but one place he could be hurt is the iverson cut and other off-ball activities he used to create leverage and pace for himself aren’t as common actions, I doubt it’s a huge deal although as 21 Offense and Downhill actions in general should replace the lack of rhythm off ball movement actions D-Wade got

"I'm not very knowledgeable about D Wade"

I'm too young to remember MJ in his prime. But man, I'm apparently old enough to say "I remember D Wade in his prime"

Thanks for calling me old

[Mazter]

Spacing does make it more difficult for defenders, it doesn't make defenses stupid. Since 2004 it has been easier for driving into the paint. But if a defense has to choose between a shot at the rim (60+%) or an open 3 (57% eFG) it will be an open 3 any day of the week on any opponent of the day. I mean the numbers are there, and numbers don't lie:

Code: Select all

% of FGA by distance     0-3 ft  3-10 ft   Total
'05-'10:                 .312     .129     .441
'11-'20:                 .287     .164     .451
'21-'24:                 .246     .199     .445


Getting attempts within 10 feet hasn't changed much since Wade's prime. But getting to the rim has become much more difficult the past 4 seasons, or so it seems. Help defense has become more of a thing, help defenders have become quicker, more agile. So there is no proof that Wade, Kobe, or any past star for that matter, would walk into this era and feast on the rim like there is no tomorrow. It might even be more difficult for them.

[OhayoKD]

The disparity in responses between this and the kobe thread are pretty wild. Kobe's case for "not optimized in era" is much stronger.

Would take Giannis and Jokic. Embid theoretically better but needs a healthy postseason. Steph may have a case too. Small slashers should stand out less in today's league. In a league where a near 40-Lebron is harder to stop at the rim than shai or ja statistically, not seeing how people are expecting Wade to improve.

Wade's 2008-2009 season was almost on par with LeBron's best RS arguably in a lesser era for offenses to thrive compared to now.

Based on?

That aside, lesser era for offenses isn't meaningful either way inofitself. The point is to stand out from the field, not to up your raw production.

Honestly I don't know what you mean by the small slashers comment. 2008-2009 wade took 581 shots at the rim in 71 games, which is over 7 attempts a game, and he Made 66% of those shots

Here, let me put it simpler:
Wade making more attempts at the rim today with more spacing doesn't mean anything. Everyone's spacing is going up including the players wade is competing against. So either Wade stands out more than he did when he played or he gets worse.

I really don't understand why people reply and then repeat the thing that was addressed in the reply. "spacing -> more stats -> better" is not how era-translation works.

[OhayoKD]

The disparity in responses between this and the kobe thread are pretty wild. Kobe's case for "not optimized in era" is much stronger.

Would take Giannis and Jokic. Embid theoretically better but needs a healthy postseason. Steph may have a case too. Small slashers should stand out less in today's league. In a league where a near 40-Lebron is harder to stop at the rim than shai or ja statistically, not seeing how people are expecting Wade to improve.

Wade's 2008-2009 season was almost on par with LeBron's best RS arguably in a lesser era for offenses to thrive compared to now.

Based on?

That aside, lesser era for offenses isn't meaningful either way inofitself. The point is to stand out from the field, not to up your raw production.

n

When I say almost on par arguably, I mean you can argue they were close in impact. Not that Wade matched LeBron's impact.

And I think most of the impact metrics bear it out. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Well I am not aware of any metrics baring that out so feel free to provide.

What I am aware of is RAPM, which artificially drags down outliers, which has Lebron ahead of the pack by varying degrees depending on the source and then KG/Duncan being ahead of the not-lebron pack and then curry being ahead of the not-lebron/curry/kg pack, and --then-- if you're using cheema(wade's best source), Wade shows up alongside Shaq and Draymond and Manu.

By real-world signals(08-10 without, 11 without with similar lineup) First cleveland Lebron is a 40-win generating outlier of outliers and Wade's team...isn't that far above 40-wins. It also doesn't hurt that the cavs went 11-0 and +8 without the major addition to the 2009 team in 2010.

If you want to look at a few minutes without a player a game, Lebron's on/off is +21 in 2009 and +16 in 2010 while Wade's is +14/+13 in those same years.

Maybe you're using some box-impact hybrid, but i don't recall wade looking comparable in those either.

We can have a discussion over whether that big statistical advantage is truly reflective, but I am unaware of their being cold data that contradicts it

[OhayoKD]

Don't understand the SGA-Dwyane Wade comparisons; SGA can shoot, Dwyane Wade was high volume slasher who really couldn't shoot despite having fairly judicious shot selection for his time. Prime Wade shot 38% from 11FT to 22FT on the court, below league average. SGA in 2024 shoots 10% above league average from 11FT-22FT on the court. Prime Wade was consistently a 76%-77% Free Throw Shooter which was well below league average for a Guard during his prime. SGA shoots 91% from the FT Line, which is the one of the most valuable parts of his game; SGA is Top 15 in the league in Free Throw Rate amongst players with a 20%+ Usage Rate while also being Top 5 in the NBA in FT%.

Wade as a 6'4" slasher in an NBA where the league average in rim finishing is now 69%, wouldn't standout the same way he would have 4-6 years ago when the league average in rim finishing was 65%. Giannis shoots over 50% of his shots at the rim and finishes at a 80% clip; Wade isn't coming close to that type of rim finishing.

In a 2019 NBA, Wade likely would have been in contention for best player in the league, but with the extreme offensive explosion since then with a heightened premium on shooting proficiency, it's a comfortable bet to say Wade wouldn't be a Top 3 player in a 2024 NBA.

Again in more spaced out league with smaller bigs how would Wade's finishing ability stagnate or get worse it makes no sense. I personally don't see the SGA comparison, I see a bigger stronger more cerebral Morant. Ja avgs 28 ppg in this current nba so how would Wade go from being in contest for best player in 2019 but not 2024 when teams are more focused on having multiple shooters on the floor for slashers like Jimmy, Morant, Zion etc?

Who ranks higher in their respective league(all else being equal)?
Player a: a 70 percent rim finisher in a league of 50 percent rim finishing where there's four other 60+ rim finishers or

player b: a 80 percent rim finisher in a lague of 70 percent rim finihsing where there's 8 other 75 percent rim finishers.

Extreme example, but hopefully illustrutates eagle4's point

Top 3. Even in a relative-to-era sense I think he at least holds his own against Jokic and Giannis (though I would still lean them), but as much of his brilliance comes from being one of the best slashing guards ever, he could take even more advantage of that in today's more spaced out game

Not a good use of "even"

[dygaction]

Top 6 joining the current top 5

[RIPCITY1977]

Antetokounmpo, JoJo, joker, Wade

[The Main Event]

Top 3 fo sho. Would be the best defensively of the superstar guards by a wide margin and arguably second offensively after Curry.

I'd take Haliburton over Wade on offense without a second thought. Luka as well

You might, but no GM in the league worth his salt would.

[Rishkar]

Top 3 fo sho. Would be the best defensively of the superstar guards by a wide margin and arguably second offensively after Curry.

I'd take Haliburton over Wade on offense without a second thought. Luka as well

You might, but no GM in the league worth his salt would.

Why? Wade's defense makes him a better player than either, but on offense, he isn't providing the same combination of scoring and passing needed to elevate an offense. He's a fantastic finisher, but give me someone who can create open looks for their teammates while stretching a defense.

[PaulieWal]

but give me someone who can create open looks for their teammates while stretching a defense.

Puzzling statement given that's what Wade was doing before LeBron showed up in 2011. And there are more ways than stretching a defense to create open looks for teammates while being a floor general.

[Rishkar]

but give me someone who can create open looks for their teammates while stretching a defense.

Puzzling statement given that's what Wade was doing before LeBron showed up in 2011. And there are more ways than stretching a defense to create open looks for teammates while being a floor general.

Wade definitely put pressure on a defense with his slashing, but his shooting, while not abysmal, was not a fundamental piece of his game. He was good enough to keep the defense honest and it opened up his drives, but i always got the impression that Wade needed others to create space for him to operate instead of the opposite.

[McBubbles]

I'd take Haliburton over Wade on offense without a second thought. Luka as well

You might, but no GM in the league worth his salt would.

Why? Wade's defense makes him a better player than either, but on offense, he isn't providing the same combination of scoring and passing needed to elevate an offense. He's a fantastic finisher, but give me someone who can create open looks for their teammates while stretching a defense.

Wot?

I'm not asking rhetorically, but what do you think Wade did as a playmaker if not this?

Also Wade shot 45.2% from mid-range on 8.6 attempts per game in the 2006 post season run. For reference, that's about as efficient as Kobe's mid-range game in his most efficient mid-range shooting season.

Streaky or not Wade was doing more than keeping them honest, he was dominating from that part of the floor. He also shot a respectful 38.0% from 3, though on pretty low volume.