2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

[Doctor MJ]

Again.

The game was officiated like a December basketball game. Every point of marginal contact was a foul.

No playoff game this season has been officiated like this. I don't think any regular season game post-ASB was officiated like this.

The idea that the officials were out to get the Timberwolves isn't correct. The idea that the officials were calling every little contact isn't a normal playoff game.

Like I said, if the rest of the playoffs are refereed like this, the team with the most finesse and most physical offensive team [See Jokic] is going to dominate. That's fine is the officials call it like that, but the problem here lies in this game was officiated significantly different than any other game in the post-season.

Minnesota needs to adapt. They need to post-up KAT/ANT more often. They need to let ANT drive and get the 12-15 FGA Wade/Jordan got as drivers. They need to stop playing Kyle Anderson and more Monte Morris.

The game being officiated as it was hurts Minnesota as it hinders their strengths, but make no mistake that Minnesota is still the more talented team and should still win the series unless Denver has the best 2 players in the series (Like Denver did last night).

Do you believe that if the game were refereed like Game 2 the Wolves would have done 50 points better than in Game 3?

If not, why not?

No, of course not.

Jamal Murray looked healthier.

Towns and notably Edwards looked far less aggressive.

Gordon hit some shots outside of the 1st quarter.

But what happens when McDaniels isn't in foul trouble, maybe Murray doesn't get on an absolute heater. Maybe the defense can play more aggressive with less foul(s) on them. Maybe the Nuggets get in the bonus slow and/or not at all.

I think it's fairly obvious the officiating had a negative effect on the Timberwolves and a positive effect on Denver. I also think Minnesota was relatively flat for most of the game.

I don't know if Minnesota wins the game, and in fact I bet Denver probably wins regardless. But I never said the officials lost the game for Minnesota. I'm actually more focused on what will happen if the game is officiated like this for the remainder of the series and what happens with Denver/Minnesota respectively.

Even when I ask you to focus on something other than fouls, most of your post talks about fouls.

But hey, you're a Wolves fan so frankly it makes sense for you. I'm not looking to tee off on people who actually have team fandom involved - you're supposed to be irritated by things that get in the way of your team's success even if they are small.

My larger concern here is everyone without a dog in the fight commenting on the fight without talking about the fighters.

[Ambrose]

Do you believe that if the game were refereed like Game 2 the Wolves would have done 50 points better than in Game 3?

If not, why not?

No, of course not.

Jamal Murray looked healthier.

Towns and notably Edwards looked far less aggressive.

Gordon hit some shots outside of the 1st quarter.

But what happens when McDaniels isn't in foul trouble, maybe Murray doesn't get on an absolute heater. Maybe the defense can play more aggressive with less foul(s) on them. Maybe the Nuggets get in the bonus slow and/or not at all.

I think it's fairly obvious the officiating had a negative effect on the Timberwolves and a positive effect on Denver. I also think Minnesota was relatively flat for most of the game.

I don't know if Minnesota wins the game, and in fact I bet Denver probably wins regardless. But I never said the officials lost the game for Minnesota. I'm actually more focused on what will happen if the game is officiated like this for the remainder of the series and what happens with Denver/Minnesota respectively.

Even when I ask you to focus on something other than fouls, most of your post talks about fouls.

But hey, you're a Wolves fan so frankly it makes sense for you. I'm not looking to tee off on people who actually have team fandom involved - you're supposed to be irritated by things that get in the way of your team's success even if they are small.

My larger concern here is everyone without a dog in the fight commenting on the fight without talking about the fighters.

Denver threw the first punch for the first time this series, and the Wolves missed some good looks early. When the Wolves kept getting their runs stopped they looked shellshocked. McDaniels earned every foul he had, mostly by being dumb. Denver played the way we've been used to the last two years. Calm and decisive. That was the difference.

I have no issues with anyone thinking Murray should have been suspended. I have no issues with people correctly pointing out the reffing inconsistency between games. But man when I see "they called every ticky tack thing" or "no playoff game has been reffed like this", I can't help but cringe. Neither is remotely true.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

Man...Shai deserved better.

Chet needs to be better for us to win.

[sp6r=underrated]

I can't remember another year like this where literally every time a team loses a good chunk of their supporters immediately goes to the refs.

I've noticed that ref bashing is getting progressively worse among fans despite the quality of refereeing being perfectly acceptable.

I think several things are at work. And many of them are within the NBA's power to fix.
1. Stop encouraging ref bashing. The comment below comes from one of the Wolves-Nuggets games where Miller went on a tangent about how the error rate for refs should be 0. It is absurd.

I know a lot of basketball fans feel like Reggie, "you can't miss calls," but the error rate for refs will always be above 0. As comparison Reggie Miller is one of the greatest shooters of all time and he missed one in ten free throws. A free throw is when a player is unguarded and has ten seconds to collect themselves. He missed one in ten and he was one of the best shooters of all time.

Refs are going to miss calls and when you compare NBA ref to NCAA refs their error rate is a lot lower.

But the comparison there isn't just a missed call. It was such an obvious foul. Is more like Reggie shooting an air ball on a FT.

Actually missing a free throw is the perfect comparison for a blown call. The shooter has ten seconds collect himself. He knows he's unguarded and he's one of the best shooters in the world. But even the Reggie Millers miss 1 in 10.

The NBA should tell announcers if you want to call national games you cannot go on rants like that and if you do you'll be fired. During game telecasts instead of constantly showing super slow replays to show a missed call show a replay from the angle of the ref in real. If fans saw it in real time they'd understand the misses way more. Also they should make the point I make above. Refs are going to miss calls, just as players miss free throws.

2. They need to start punishing coaches/players rants with suspensions anytime they allege referees fix games or abuse refs. It is absurd that the NBA doesn't suspend players who allege games are fixed. Fans take their cue from their favorite. If their favorite team says we lost because the ref is a crook, lots of fans will believe them. Gobert's money gesture should have been a suspension. Murray should have been suspended 2 games for throwing things at refs. The minimal punishment for all these incidents tells fans there is truth to the charges.

3. The NBA needs to adjust the automatic ejection rule. This is the change I recommend

The NBA has to get serious about solving this problem. My solution is :

1. Technicals for ref bashing are not counted to the two technical auto ejection rule.
2. Referees are required to call a technical anytime a player complains about a call.

If that change was made players would lower the complaining a lot. Even the Luka/Draymond HOF level players would lower their complaining because they'd be killing their team with free throws. There are some players who truly complain on every possession for their team that doesn't end in a made bucket or a free throw.

I think if you did the points above the culture of ref bashing from fans would lower.

This is pure conjecture on my part so I put it in spoiler mode. Read if you want.

Spoiler:

One subtext to ref bashing is the increase in sports betting. A higher percentage of fans are betting on games they watch. Doc made the point that ref bashing is occurring among fans without a rooting interest. My guess is bettors are more likely to be ref bashers, especially now that people bet on really weird things like MOV for quarters or player props. I don't know if that is true but I do think it is possible that it plays a role

[Fadeaway_J]

I can't remember another year like this where literally every time a team loses a good chunk of their supporters immediately goes to the refs.

I've noticed that ref bashing is getting progressively worse among fans despite the quality of refereeing being perfectly acceptable.

I think several things are at work. And many of them are within the NBA's power to fix.
1. Stop encouraging ref bashing. The comment below comes from one of the Wolves-Nuggets games where Miller went on a tangent about how the error rate for refs should be 0. It is absurd.

But the comparison there isn't just a missed call. It was such an obvious foul. Is more like Reggie shooting an air ball on a FT.

Actually missing a free throw is the perfect comparison for a blown call. The shooter has ten seconds collect himself. He knows he's unguarded and he's one of the best shooters in the world. But even the Reggie Millers miss 1 in 10.

The NBA should tell announcers if you want to call national games you cannot go on rants like that and if you do you'll be fired. During game telecasts instead of constantly showing super slow replays to show a missed call show a replay from the angle of the ref in real. If fans saw it in real time they'd understand the misses way more. Also they should make the point I make above. Refs are going to miss calls, just as players miss free throws.

2. They need to start punishing coaches/players rants with suspensions anytime they allege referees fix games or abuse refs. It is absurd that the NBA doesn't suspend players who allege games are fixed. Fans take their cue from their favorite. If their favorite team says we lost because the ref is a crook, lots of fans will believe them. Gobert's money gesture should have been a suspension. Murray should have been suspended 2 games for throwing things at refs. The minimal punishment for all these incidents tells fans there is truth to the charges.

3. The NBA needs to adjust the automatic ejection rule. This is the change I recommend

The NBA has to get serious about solving this problem. My solution is :

1. Technicals for ref bashing are not counted to the two technical auto ejection rule.
2. Referees are required to call a technical anytime a player complains about a call.

If that change was made players would lower the complaining a lot. Even the Luka/Draymond HOF level players would lower their complaining because they'd be killing their team with free throws. There are some players who truly complain on every possession for their team that doesn't end in a made bucket or a free throw.

I think if you did the points above the culture of ref bashing from fans would lower.

This is pure conjecture on my part so I put it in spoiler mode. Read if you want.

Spoiler:

One subtext to ref bashing is the increase in sports betting. A higher percentage of fans are betting on games they watch. Doc made the point that ref bashing is occurring among fans without a rooting interest. My guess is bettors are more likely to be ref bashers, especially now that people bet on really weird things like MOV for quarters or player props. I don't know if that is true but I do think it is possible that it plays a role

I can promise you none of these heavy-handed measures are going to stop ref bashing at all (except maybe showing more replays in real time). All they will do is heighten distrust of the NBA even more.

[sp6r=underrated]

I can't remember another year like this where literally every time a team loses a good chunk of their supporters immediately goes to the refs.

I've noticed that ref bashing is getting progressively worse among fans despite the quality of refereeing being perfectly acceptable.

I think several things are at work. And many of them are within the NBA's power to fix.
1. Stop encouraging ref bashing. The comment below comes from one of the Wolves-Nuggets games where Miller went on a tangent about how the error rate for refs should be 0. It is absurd.

Actually missing a free throw is the perfect comparison for a blown call. The shooter has ten seconds collect himself. He knows he's unguarded and he's one of the best shooters in the world. But even the Reggie Millers miss 1 in 10.

The NBA should tell announcers if you want to call national games you cannot go on rants like that and if you do you'll be fired. During game telecasts instead of constantly showing super slow replays to show a missed call show a replay from the angle of the ref in real. If fans saw it in real time they'd understand the misses way more. Also they should make the point I make above. Refs are going to miss calls, just as players miss free throws.

2. They need to start punishing coaches/players rants with suspensions anytime they allege referees fix games or abuse refs. It is absurd that the NBA doesn't suspend players who allege games are fixed. Fans take their cue from their favorite. If their favorite team says we lost because the ref is a crook, lots of fans will believe them. Gobert's money gesture should have been a suspension. Murray should have been suspended 2 games for throwing things at refs. The minimal punishment for all these incidents tells fans there is truth to the charges.

3. The NBA needs to adjust the automatic ejection rule. This is the change I recommend

The NBA has to get serious about solving this problem. My solution is :

1. Technicals for ref bashing are not counted to the two technical auto ejection rule.
2. Referees are required to call a technical anytime a player complains about a call.

If that change was made players would lower the complaining a lot. Even the Luka/Draymond HOF level players would lower their complaining because they'd be killing their team with free throws. There are some players who truly complain on every possession for their team that doesn't end in a made bucket or a free throw.

I think if you did the points above the culture of ref bashing from fans would lower.

This is pure conjecture on my part so I put it in spoiler mode. Read if you want.

Spoiler:

One subtext to ref bashing is the increase in sports betting. A higher percentage of fans are betting on games they watch. Doc made the point that ref bashing is occurring among fans without a rooting interest. My guess is bettors are more likely to be ref bashers, especially now that people bet on really weird things like MOV for quarters or player props. I don't know if that is true but I do think it is possible that it plays a role

I can promise you none of these heavy-handed measures are going to stop ref bashing at all (except maybe showing more replays in real time). All they will do is heighten distrust of the NBA even more.

You may be right that fatalism is the proper attitude but the tinfoil hat crew should be treated with derision and the chronic ref bashers should be viewed with disgust.

[Dr Positivity]

I'll never believe Celtics offense can be elite in the playoffs playing this way. My favorite version of them was 2022 because they were maxing out on defense.

[The Explorer]

Seems all the ref-bashing goes silent when it benefits Lebron and the Lakers

[sp6r=underrated]

Seems all the ref-bashing goes silent when it benefits Lebron and the Lakers

On both ends Lakers games probably get the most ref bashing. Same with Lebron. What are you talking about?

[sp6r=underrated]

The Brunson is a good example of what I'm getting at with the NBA encouraging a culture in which fans bash refs 24/7. As you can tell by my profile I'm a knicks fan. The ref missed a landing foul. That is a bad call.

But it shouldn't warrant a discussion with a retired ref, multiple replays and a color commentator. In a 48 minute basketball refs will make mistakes. I don't know why the NBA thinks focusing their in-game coverage on missed calls is good for the game.

And I intentionally picked a call in which my team ha d a gripe.

[eminence]

Observation: First season since the ABA merger that no teams west of the Rockies are in the 2nd round.

Edit: In fact, if we count ABA teams (Oaks/Stars/etc) it's the first time it's happened since 1960, when there were no teams west of the Rockies.

[Dr Positivity]

Fun lotto winner. I say trade Trae anyway for highest pick they can get, let DeJounte stat stuff next year and get more picks.

[JimmyFromNz]

The Brunson is a good example of what I'm getting at with the NBA encouraging a culture in which fans bash refs 24/7. As you can tell by my profile I'm a knicks fan. The ref missed a landing foul. That is a bad call.

But it shouldn't warrant a discussion with a retired ref, multiple replays and a color commentator. In a 48 minute basketball refs will make mistakes. I don't know why the NBA thinks focusing their in-game coverage on missed calls is good for the game.

And I intentionally picked a call in which my team ha d a gripe.

Agree completely with the sentiment. Also agree it was a missed call.

I found that quite a bizarre interchange between the Mike Breen (clearly with his Knicks hat on) and Steve Javie.

ESPN clearly have their finger on the fan pulse here, but its a shame to see them bait this issue so explicitly.

[Texas Chuck]

The ref thing just kills it. And I read through the OKC/Dallas game thread this morning and 80% of the posts were complaining about refs(both sides equally guilty). And I watched the game. And yet Dort gets away with a lot, but Dort always gets away with a lot so deal with it. And yeah Luka should be T'd up and tossed from games from how he goes at refs, but they aren't going to toss him from playoff games so move on.

Good teams, players, coaches adjust to how the game is called and play through it. One of the things I love about all the Mavs players outside of Luka is not one of them worries about it. Jones is clearly frustrated that Dort is allowed to bump bump bump Luka but if he so much as touches SGA or SGA pushes him, he gets a foul. But he knows he can't do a thing about that, so he just keeps going. Kyrie will maybe glance at a ref after getting fouled with no call, but just jumps up and plays.

I've given up on Luka. He's going to whine especially in an SGA series.

But I cant' imagine watching games and being focused so heavily on the refs. I wonder if some of you buy ref jerseys to wear even. You are more interested in them than the players.

[Fadeaway_J]

The ref thing just kills it. And I read through the OKC/Dallas game thread this morning and 80% of the posts were complaining about refs(both sides equally guilty). And I watched the game. And yet Dort gets away with a lot, but Dort always gets away with a lot so deal with it. And yeah Luka should be T'd up and tossed from games from how he goes at refs, but they aren't going to toss him from playoff games so move on.

Good teams, players, coaches adjust to how the game is called and play through it. One of the things I love about all the Mavs players outside of Luka is not one of them worries about it. Jones is clearly frustrated that Dort is allowed to bump bump bump Luka but if he so much as touches SGA or SGA pushes him, he gets a foul. But he knows he can't do a thing about that, so he just keeps going. Kyrie will maybe glance at a ref after getting fouled with no call, but just jumps up and plays.

I've given up on Luka. He's going to whine especially in an SGA series.

But I cant' imagine watching games and being focused so heavily on the refs. I wonder if some of you buy ref jerseys to wear even. You are more interested in them than the players.

The players are pretty interested themselves tbh. Some of the calls they have to gall to protest are flat-out hilarious.

[Texas Chuck]

The ref thing just kills it. And I read through the OKC/Dallas game thread this morning and 80% of the posts were complaining about refs(both sides equally guilty). And I watched the game. And yet Dort gets away with a lot, but Dort always gets away with a lot so deal with it. And yeah Luka should be T'd up and tossed from games from how he goes at refs, but they aren't going to toss him from playoff games so move on.

Good teams, players, coaches adjust to how the game is called and play through it. One of the things I love about all the Mavs players outside of Luka is not one of them worries about it. Jones is clearly frustrated that Dort is allowed to bump bump bump Luka but if he so much as touches SGA or SGA pushes him, he gets a foul. But he knows he can't do a thing about that, so he just keeps going. Kyrie will maybe glance at a ref after getting fouled with no call, but just jumps up and plays.

I've given up on Luka. He's going to whine especially in an SGA series.

But I cant' imagine watching games and being focused so heavily on the refs. I wonder if some of you buy ref jerseys to wear even. You are more interested in them than the players.

The players are pretty interested themselves tbh. Some of the calls they have to gall to protest are flat-out hilarious.

As stated above I'm over Luka(and others) and the ref baiting.

But I at least get Luka in the fight getting frustrated by what he believes is unfair(again his perception not necessarily reality). I don't understand watching games, waiting for my team to lose or a player I don't like to win and just launching in ref tirades. And its literally every game now.

[OhayoKD]

jokic carrying

[Fadeaway_J]

Jokic is still decent apparently

[OhayoKD]

Jokic slowing and Edward rising but it's not going to matter if Minny can't get stops. Small-sample, but some real questions to ask about Gobert Kat's defensive synergy. Murray also has woken up which doesn't bode well for the rest of this series

[GSP]

Rudy having 4 Dpoys in one of the biggest travesties in Nba history specially as the likes of Ad and Bam have never sniffed 1

they gotta stop giving this fraud the award man its sickening. Their perimeter defense looks so much worse since hes gotten back. Cant make excuses and blame it on the perimeter defenders like in Utah