Where would Peak Wade rank today?

[Pelly24]

A stat called “rim and FT TSA percentage” combines attempts at the rim and free throw attempts as a shorthand for how much of a player’s offense comes at the basket. It’s a nice quick indicator, especially for perimeter players. It’s also really good at spotting a decline in athleticism and penetration.

Anything above 50 percent is really historic for non-big men, and sometimes big forwards who can slash and play around the basket will cross over that 50 percent line.

Wade peaked at 57%. He had 6 seasons where he was at 50% or higher during his prime (up through 2013).

If you look at Lebron from up until 2013 in this stat, he has 0 seasons that hit the 50% mark.


It isn't until 2014, where he hits the 50% mark, then his 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019 seasons are all at the 50%.

Lebron peaked in 2016 at 55%.

It's funny that during the heart of Lebron's athletic peak and general prime in many people's estimations (first stint Cleveland and Heatles days), not as much of Lebron's offense was coming at the rim.

It is generally in the later years, of pace and space basketball, where Lebron's offense at the rim skyrockets.

To me these highlights how special of a slasher Wade was, that in an era that was more packed in a paint, how he still stood out compared to an GOAT-level slasher in Lebron. It also, kind of highlights, how prolific slashers are able to get more of their offense at the rim than ever before, even during their non-athletic primes, as offense has evolved.

Exactly lol. Like I don't see how people don't think Wade would simply run directly by defenders today for finishes low. I saw Dame just carve up teams at the rim last year, and while he's very athletic and skilled, he's basically a neutral at best when compared to Wade. Wade was basically unstoppable even without a three-ball and being kinda mid shooting free throws at times.

I mean Lillard being one of the best 3 point shooters of all time plays a gigantic factor in why he can get to the rim. Steph Curry can get to the rim easily too. Lillard gets past his defenders because they have to play too close to him which doesn't apply to Wade.

Wade is nothing like Lillard, so you can't use A>B>C logic there.

lol It doesn't matter because Wade couldn't — and basically didn't — shoot threes that well or much at all in his own era with a more packed paint and no reliable second or even third options for a lot of that time — and people still couldn't keep him away from the basket and finishing at high efficiency. He is just physically superior to most guards in NBA history, really, probably all but one or two people. people in this thread are underrating his finishing ability, which is truly historically elite for basically anyone, especially high-usage guards.

[SportsGuru08]

Exactly lol. Like I don't see how people don't think Wade would simply run directly by defenders today for finishes low. I saw Dame just carve up teams at the rim last year, and while he's very athletic and skilled, he's basically a neutral at best when compared to Wade. Wade was basically unstoppable even without a three-ball and being kinda mid shooting free throws at times.

I mean Lillard being one of the best 3 point shooters of all time plays a gigantic factor in why he can get to the rim. Steph Curry can get to the rim easily too. Lillard gets past his defenders because they have to play too close to him which doesn't apply to Wade.

Wade is nothing like Lillard, so you can't use A>B>C logic there.

lol It doesn't matter because Wade couldn't — and basically didn't — shoot threes that well or much at all in his own era with a more packed paint and no reliable second or even third options for a lot of that time — and people still couldn't keep him away from the basket and finishing at high efficiency. He is just physically superior to most guards in NBA history, really, probably all but one or two people. people in this thread are underrating his finishing ability, which is truly historically elite for basically anyone, especially high-usage guards.

Reading the replies has me re-thinking my vote; I voted Top 10 with 6-8 as my personal range for him. But now I definitely think he'd be Top 5.

[Mazter]

Ok, I hear a lot of good things about that Wade person, so I went to check what all the fuss was about. In the end he was an 8 time All NBA from 2006 to 2013, yet only twice made the first team (top 5). He also barely cracked top 5 in MVp voting twice in his career and was 2nd team All Defensive only 3 times. He had a first All NBA Team mate for 6 seasons, in which "he wreaked havoc", made 5 finals, 3 titles and one conference Finals with a 20-3 series record. Whenever he didn't had an All NBA first team mate he had a 2-7 series records and missed the play offs 3x. That doesn't really sound dominating to me, so maybe the personal stats will prove otherwise. After all, he was the fastest and strongest slasher, cruising through the packed paint getting to the rim at will. He definitely must have some outlier kinda stats among his peers, but after I checked I beg to differ:

Points in the paint, Wade peaked at 12.5
Others: Iverson 12.1, Parker 11.5, Mason 10.0, Ellis 11.1 and Evans 11.8

Attempts within 10 feet, Wade peaked at 10.3
Others: Iverson 11.8, Mason 10.4, Evans 10.3, Ellis 10.3

Attempts at rim, Wade peaked at 7.8
Others: Iverson 7.7, Ellis 7.9, Parker 7.3, Evans 8.5

Eficiency at rim (min 5 FGA/gm), Wade peaked at 67.6
Others: Jason Richardson 66.1, Parker 69.9, Deng 66.8, Ellis 65.9, Brewer 66.7, Iguodala 72.3, W.Chandler 67.7

Efficiency 0-10 ft (min 7 FGA/gm), Wade peaked at 64.0
Others: Parker 64.4, Ellis 61.9, Deng 60.3

The narrative and highlights could turn everybody in a GOAT. Heck, I think I could make a video making Tony Parker the best player of today's league. But it's painful to watch those defenses in the highlights at times. At one point the paint is "packed" with 3 defenders all residing at the weak side of the paint, more interested in their assignment, while Wade is making his move into the paint. Even worse, one defender makes a half attempt to double, then turns his back to a raging Wade and sprints to the weak side corner to cover a (weak) 3 point shooter. Those defenders would have been benched in this era just for defensive stupidity. After the change of the illegal defense and handcheck defenses were clueless for a while as how to defend against slashers. It took a while for them to get the hang of it. Especially in the period between 2004-2014. But as the numbers indicate the past 4 seasons they started to get the hang of it. Numbers of attempts at the rim are at it lowest since 1997.

This whole Wade thing, or Kobe or Jordan for that matter, is based upon the fact that scoring improved. And of course it's impossible that the league as a whole is at a higher level of scoring so it must be the wide open paint or nobody plays defense anymore thing. Therefore the main believe is that every agile star of the past could come in today and average anywhere between 30-40 points because whatever.

Fun fact, the first foreign born and grown player who had the audacity to average 30 points was Embiid 2 seasons ago. Last year 4 foreign players averaged 30 against 2 American born. This season it's 4 against...well, depends how you see De'Aaron's 29.96 at this point. Maybe, just maybe it's a sign as of why scoring is up.

[Pelly24]

Ok, I hear a lot of good things about that Wade person, so I went to check what all the fuss was about. In the end he was an 8 time All NBA from 2006 to 2013, yet only twice made the first team (top 5). He also barely cracked top 5 in MVp voting twice in his career and was 2nd team All Defensive only 3 times. He had a first All NBA Team mate for 6 seasons, in which "he wreaked havoc", made 5 finals, 3 titles and one conference Finals with a 20-3 series record. Whenever he didn't had an All NBA first team mate he had a 2-7 series records and missed the play offs 3x. That doesn't really sound dominating to me, so maybe the personal stats will prove otherwise. After all, he was the fastest and strongest slasher, cruising through the packed paint getting to the rim at will. He definitely must have some outlier kinda stats among his peers, but after I checked I beg to differ:

Points in the paint, Wade peaked at 12.5
Others: Iverson 12.1, Parker 11.5, Mason 10.0, Ellis 11.1 and Evans 11.8

Attempts within 10 feet, Wade peaked at 10.3
Others: Iverson 11.8, Mason 10.4, Evans 10.3, Ellis 10.3

Attempts at rim, Wade peaked at 7.8
Others: Iverson 7.7, Ellis 7.9, Parker 7.3, Evans 8.5

Eficiency at rim (min 5 FGA/gm), Wade peaked at 67.6
Others: Jason Richardson 66.1, Parker 69.9, Deng 66.8, Ellis 65.9, Brewer 66.7, Iguodala 72.3, W.Chandler 67.7

Efficiency 0-10 ft (min 7 FGA/gm), Wade peaked at 64.0
Others: Parker 64.4, Ellis 61.9, Deng 60.3

The narrative and highlights could turn everybody in a GOAT. Heck, I think I could make a video making Tony Parker the best player of today's league. But it's painful to watch those defenses in the highlights at times. At one point the paint is "packed" with 3 defenders all residing at the weak side of the paint, more interested in their assignment, while Wade is making his move into the paint. Even worse, one defender makes a half attempt to double, then turns his back to a raging Wade and sprints to the weak side corner to cover a (weak) 3 point shooter. Those defenders would have been benched in this era just for defensive stupidity. After the change of the illegal defense and handcheck defenses were clueless for a while as how to defend against slashers. It took a while for them to get the hang of it. Especially in the period between 2004-2014. But as the numbers indicate the past 4 seasons they started to get the hang of it. Numbers of attempts at the rim are at it lowest since 1997.

This whole Wade thing, or Kobe or Jordan for that matter, is based upon the fact that scoring improved. And of course it's impossible that the league as a whole is at a higher level of scoring so it must be the wide open paint or nobody plays defense anymore thing. Therefore the main believe is that every agile star of the past could come in today and average anywhere between 30-40 points because whatever.

Fun fact, the first foreign born and grown player who had the audacity to average 30 points was Embiid 2 seasons ago. Last year 4 foreign players averaged 30 against 2 American born. This season it's 4 against...well, depends how you see De'Aaron's 29.96 at this point. Maybe, just maybe it's a sign as of why scoring is up.

I do think the league is more skilled now, but I'm sorry, it's clear these stats are inflated lol. TMac led the league in scoring in 2003-2004 with 28 ppg. AI averaged 26 ppg, and no one else averaged over 25 ppg that season. Now, there are 18 players scoring at least 25 ppg. That's not coincidence. I really don't see any argument that Wade wouldn't average at least what he averaged in 2009. As far as MJ goes ... I don't know how people can see Kawhi Leonard, who is less athletic than even 1996-1998 MJ in every conceivable way, dominate and not conclude that prime MJ averages 40 ppg

Wade was the biggest and fastest and most athletic guard of his era and would also be that way today. I've already posted the rim finishing stats. He got to the rim an absurd amount and he could get to the rim a lot today too. The stats you show support him being an incredible finisher. The people who finished at a higher efficiency didn't have nearly the volume, and their finishes weren't self-created as often, and they weren't the No. 1 option on their team. Totally different, and yet Wade is still in the 1st percentile. And I didn't even get into his P&R playmaking which would be spammed today. I mean, we saw Harden average 36 ppg. Harden was super quick and powerful and had the step back three, sure. But imagine having four shooters on the court and trying to guard Wade in space? Quickest first step ever besides maybe MJ and D. Rose, all that space, 6'4" 220 coming at you with the ability to move like Kyrie Irving. He's obviously getting whatever he wants, and unlike a bunch of other stars, isn't about to fizzle out in the playoffs.

[Eagle4]

Ok, I hear a lot of good things about that Wade person, so I went to check what all the fuss was about. In the end he was an 8 time All NBA from 2006 to 2013, yet only twice made the first team (top 5). He also barely cracked top 5 in MVp voting twice in his career and was 2nd team All Defensive only 3 times. He had a first All NBA Team mate for 6 seasons, in which "he wreaked havoc", made 5 finals, 3 titles and one conference Finals with a 20-3 series record. Whenever he didn't had an All NBA first team mate he had a 2-7 series records and missed the play offs 3x. That doesn't really sound dominating to me, so maybe the personal stats will prove otherwise. After all, he was the fastest and strongest slasher, cruising through the packed paint getting to the rim at will. He definitely must have some outlier kinda stats among his peers, but after I checked I beg to differ:

Points in the paint, Wade peaked at 12.5
Others: Iverson 12.1, Parker 11.5, Mason 10.0, Ellis 11.1 and Evans 11.8

Attempts within 10 feet, Wade peaked at 10.3
Others: Iverson 11.8, Mason 10.4, Evans 10.3, Ellis 10.3

Attempts at rim, Wade peaked at 7.8
Others: Iverson 7.7, Ellis 7.9, Parker 7.3, Evans 8.5

Eficiency at rim (min 5 FGA/gm), Wade peaked at 67.6
Others: Jason Richardson 66.1, Parker 69.9, Deng 66.8, Ellis 65.9, Brewer 66.7, Iguodala 72.3, W.Chandler 67.7

Efficiency 0-10 ft (min 7 FGA/gm), Wade peaked at 64.0
Others: Parker 64.4, Ellis 61.9, Deng 60.3

The narrative and highlights could turn everybody in a GOAT. Heck, I think I could make a video making Tony Parker the best player of today's league. But it's painful to watch those defenses in the highlights at times. At one point the paint is "packed" with 3 defenders all residing at the weak side of the paint, more interested in their assignment, while Wade is making his move into the paint. Even worse, one defender makes a half attempt to double, then turns his back to a raging Wade and sprints to the weak side corner to cover a (weak) 3 point shooter. Those defenders would have been benched in this era just for defensive stupidity. After the change of the illegal defense and handcheck defenses were clueless for a while as how to defend against slashers. It took a while for them to get the hang of it. Especially in the period between 2004-2014. But as the numbers indicate the past 4 seasons they started to get the hang of it. Numbers of attempts at the rim are at it lowest since 1997.

This whole Wade thing, or Kobe or Jordan for that matter, is based upon the fact that scoring improved. And of course it's impossible that the league as a whole is at a higher level of scoring so it must be the wide open paint or nobody plays defense anymore thing. Therefore the main believe is that every agile star of the past could come in today and average anywhere between 30-40 points because whatever.

Fun fact, the first foreign born and grown player who had the audacity to average 30 points was Embiid 2 seasons ago. Last year 4 foreign players averaged 30 against 2 American born. This season it's 4 against...well, depends how you see De'Aaron's 29.96 at this point. Maybe, just maybe it's a sign as of why scoring is up.

Context matters, you can't just look up accolades/stats and come to a baseless conclusion without actually doing proper research. Kobe stole a few all nba defenses from Wade and a couple first teams. It'd be like saying Shaq wasn't they dominant as illustrated because he only nabbed one whole MVP. Or saying he should've had 7 rings. Or Wilt in the same manner only winning 3 titles.
Wade took his team a title in his 3rd year and was a rib cage injury away from going to the finals in his 2nd year. From '07-08 he dislocated his shoulder and was playing with knee tendinitis. Not to mention in '11 when Lebron had all time mental breakdown that cost Wade another FMVP and title. That last part alone would catapult Wade a good 5 spots up in the ATG list. So yeah context matters in everything when discussing how or why certain players aren't GREATER and in Wade's case it was mainly injuries. I can confidently say he'd be a Top 15 all time player if not for the poor decision to remove his meniscus pre-NBA draft.

[HeartBreakKid]

Exactly lol. Like I don't see how people don't think Wade would simply run directly by defenders today for finishes low. I saw Dame just carve up teams at the rim last year, and while he's very athletic and skilled, he's basically a neutral at best when compared to Wade. Wade was basically unstoppable even without a three-ball and being kinda mid shooting free throws at times.

I mean Lillard being one of the best 3 point shooters of all time plays a gigantic factor in why he can get to the rim. Steph Curry can get to the rim easily too. Lillard gets past his defenders because they have to play too close to him which doesn't apply to Wade.

Wade is nothing like Lillard, so you can't use A>B>C logic there.

lol It doesn't matter because Wade couldn't — and basically didn't — shoot threes that well or much at all in his own era with a more packed paint and no reliable second or even third options for a lot of that time — and people still couldn't keep him away from the basket and finishing at high efficiency. He is just physically superior to most guards in NBA history, really, probably all but one or two people. people in this thread are underrating his finishing ability, which is truly historically elite for basically anyone, especially high-usage guards.

If it didn't matter why did you bring it up?

Yes, Wade was a great finisher, but you're talking like he would shoot 60% from the field or something.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Ok, I hear a lot of good things about that Wade person, so I went to check what all the fuss was about. In the end he was an 8 time All NBA from 2006 to 2013, yet only twice made the first team (top 5). He also barely cracked top 5 in MVp voting twice in his career and was 2nd team All Defensive only 3 times. He had a first All NBA Team mate for 6 seasons, in which "he wreaked havoc", made 5 finals, 3 titles and one conference Finals with a 20-3 series record. Whenever he didn't had an All NBA first team mate he had a 2-7 series records and missed the play offs 3x. That doesn't really sound dominating to me, so maybe the personal stats will prove otherwise. After all, he was the fastest and strongest slasher, cruising through the packed paint getting to the rim at will. He definitely must have some outlier kinda stats among his peers, but after I checked I beg to differ:

Points in the paint, Wade peaked at 12.5
Others: Iverson 12.1, Parker 11.5, Mason 10.0, Ellis 11.1 and Evans 11.8

Attempts within 10 feet, Wade peaked at 10.3
Others: Iverson 11.8, Mason 10.4, Evans 10.3, Ellis 10.3

Attempts at rim, Wade peaked at 7.8
Others: Iverson 7.7, Ellis 7.9, Parker 7.3, Evans 8.5

Eficiency at rim (min 5 FGA/gm), Wade peaked at 67.6
Others: Jason Richardson 66.1, Parker 69.9, Deng 66.8, Ellis 65.9, Brewer 66.7, Iguodala 72.3, W.Chandler 67.7

Efficiency 0-10 ft (min 7 FGA/gm), Wade peaked at 64.0
Others: Parker 64.4, Ellis 61.9, Deng 60.3

The narrative and highlights could turn everybody in a GOAT. Heck, I think I could make a video making Tony Parker the best player of today's league. But it's painful to watch those defenses in the highlights at times. At one point the paint is "packed" with 3 defenders all residing at the weak side of the paint, more interested in their assignment, while Wade is making his move into the paint. Even worse, one defender makes a half attempt to double, then turns his back to a raging Wade and sprints to the weak side corner to cover a (weak) 3 point shooter. Those defenders would have been benched in this era just for defensive stupidity. After the change of the illegal defense and handcheck defenses were clueless for a while as how to defend against slashers. It took a while for them to get the hang of it. Especially in the period between 2004-2014. But as the numbers indicate the past 4 seasons they started to get the hang of it. Numbers of attempts at the rim are at it lowest since 1997.

This whole Wade thing, or Kobe or Jordan for that matter, is based upon the fact that scoring improved. And of course it's impossible that the league as a whole is at a higher level of scoring so it must be the wide open paint or nobody plays defense anymore thing. Therefore the main believe is that every agile star of the past could come in today and average anywhere between 30-40 points because whatever.

Fun fact, the first foreign born and grown player who had the audacity to average 30 points was Embiid 2 seasons ago. Last year 4 foreign players averaged 30 against 2 American born. This season it's 4 against...well, depends how you see De'Aaron's 29.96 at this point. Maybe, just maybe it's a sign as of why scoring is up.

Context matters, you can't just look up accolades/stats and come to a baseless conclusion without actually doing proper research. Kobe stole a few all nba defenses from Wade and a couple first teams. It'd be like saying Shaq wasn't they dominant as illustrated because he only nabbed one whole MVP. Or saying he should've had 7 rings. Or Wilt in the same manner only winning 3 titles.
Wade took his team a title in his 3rd year and was a rib cage injury away from going to the finals in his 2nd year. From '07-08 he dislocated his shoulder and was playing with knee tendinitis. Not to mention in '11 when Lebron had all time mental breakdown that cost Wade another FMVP and title. That last part alone would catapult Wade a good 5 spots up in the ATG list. So yeah context matters in everything when discussing how or why certain players aren't GREATER and in Wade's case it was mainly injuries. I can confidently say he'd be a Top 15 all time player if not for the poor decision to remove his meniscus pre-NBA draft.

I just wanted to add, the “Wade’s no good without another all-pro” argument is severely lacking in sample size. He plays with Shaq by his second season, and when Shaq is no longer an all-pro, he’s still arguably the best player in the league the first half of 06-07, then gets hurt, and plays the entire 07-08 season hurt.

He comes back strong in 08-10, but plays on terrible teams where his second best teammate is a toss-up between a washed JO, a role player (UD), and the extremely flawed Michael Beasley. He doesn’t get his own team again until LeBron leaves, but his knees are shot by this point, oh and he only gets Chris Bosh for parts of a year and a half before he is forced to medically retire.

So the “Wade can only win with great players” narrative is flawed, because he never got to play on an average well rounded team, outside maybe his rookie season.

[Pelly24]

I mean Lillard being one of the best 3 point shooters of all time plays a gigantic factor in why he can get to the rim. Steph Curry can get to the rim easily too. Lillard gets past his defenders because they have to play too close to him which doesn't apply to Wade.

Wade is nothing like Lillard, so you can't use A>B>C logic there.

lol It doesn't matter because Wade couldn't — and basically didn't — shoot threes that well or much at all in his own era with a more packed paint and no reliable second or even third options for a lot of that time — and people still couldn't keep him away from the basket and finishing at high efficiency. He is just physically superior to most guards in NBA history, really, probably all but one or two people. people in this thread are underrating his finishing ability, which is truly historically elite for basically anyone, especially high-usage guards.

If it didn't matter why did you bring it up?

Yes, Wade was a great finisher, but you're talking like he would shoot 60% from the field or something.

What matters is that Damian Lillard, who is significantly slower than Wade and smaller than Wade with a standing reach about 7 inches lower than Wade (7'11" versus 8'6") shot 67% at the rim last year. Y'all keep trying to act like I'm making some crazy point that's not supported by readily accessible data and really just the eye test lol. We're talking about potentially the greatest guard slasher ever. I'm not saying Wade would shoot 60% from the field. But he did average 30 on 50% from the field without a legit second or third option, I think 32/8/8 on 53% is totally possible, on about 62 TS%.

[OhayoKD]

TBH, by most advanced stats and the outcomes of his teams — their records always get way better when he gets there and they're always a lot less successful when he leaves — Jimmy's been a legit top 8 player the last six or seven years. And he's got the finals appearances and LeBron, D-Wade esque playoff runs to prove it's not a fluke. Guaranteed 21/6/6 on +5 or 6 TS% with elite defense and the ability to run an offense, hit clutch shots and free throws and scale down from a 1st to 3rd or 4th option. Jimmy is amazing, a legit top 10 player, not borderline.

I'd also add Butler's ball-control/turnover economy is significantly bested by precisely zero high usage wings in NBA history (unless we're calling Shai or Haliburton "wings" because they're similar sized). Point is: Jimmy's low-mistake ball-control is phenomenal. His last 3+ seasons collectively: 21.8 ppg, 5.7 apg, 1.9 topg. In the post-season [same years]: 26.0 ppg, 5.5 apg, 1.7 topg.
He just does not f***-up with the ball often.

There may have been seasons in recent years which I would have ranked as "borderline top 10", but only because of missed games (which affect how I rank/consider a player-season). But the actual quality of player he's been when he does play......yeah, I agree. The amount of total offensive load he's able to carry, on the degree of efficiency he's able to do it with, while also giving you the kind of defense he provides........he hasn't NOT been at least top 8-9 in the league for awhile, imo.

Exactly, people underrated the value of taking care of the ball. LeBron is kind of like that too, better playmaker, but turns the ball over a bit more. But basically, Jimmy is nearly a guaranteed positive possession player most of the time and he's an elite defender who can move around varied roles on a team — from hustle player to offense initiator to clutch half court volume scorer — without losing effectiveness. He's one of the most underrated players ever, and he's been incredibly valuable in most tangible ways.

Will just remind everyone that how much you handle the ball is a big component in turnover economy, regardless of how often you're making the final pass.

Possessions(and the breaking-down of defenses) don't start at the end even if PER-brain has convinced people that's all that matters.

Butler handles the ball a fair-bit but it is a relative disadvantage compared to offensive players like Luka, Trae Young, and SGA. Do with that what you will.

[OhayoKD]

lol It doesn't matter because Wade couldn't — and basically didn't — shoot threes that well or much at all in his own era with a more packed paint and no reliable second or even third options for a lot of that time — and people still couldn't keep him away from the basket and finishing at high efficiency. He is just physically superior to most guards in NBA history, really, probably all but one or two people. people in this thread are underrating his finishing ability, which is truly historically elite for basically anyone, especially high-usage guards.

If it didn't matter why did you bring it up?

Yes, Wade was a great finisher, but you're talking like he would shoot 60% from the field or something.

What matters is that Damian Lillard, who is significantly slower than Wade and smaller than Wade with a standing reach about 7 inches lower than Wade (7'11" versus 8'6") shot 67% at the rim last year.

If Wade shot at a similar rate and volume as Damian Lillard he would be dramatically less valuable at basketball.

Your problem is you keep using "raw" production when impact which is dictated by "relative" production. I don't understand why you're struggling with this so much. Wade has to exceed the pace everyone has improved, not simply increase his counting numbers or percentages.

If you are not willing to argue that, then you don't have a serious argument for Wade improving.

[tsherkin]

I do think the league is more skilled now, but I'm sorry, it's clear these stats are inflated lol. TMac led the league in scoring in 2003-2004 with 28 ppg. AI averaged 26 ppg, and no one else averaged over 25 ppg that season. Now, there are 18 players scoring at least 25 ppg. That's not coincidence.

League average pace was 9 possessions slower per game, 3PAr was 18.7% compared to 39.2%, and McGrady played 39.9 mpg.

These are relevant factors. Spacing on the floor for teams is considerably different than it was then. It was NOTEWORTHY that the Spurs had a 3+D wing and some corner 3pt shooters in that era, much the same as with the 2000 Lakers or the 94 Rockets. This was a big deal at the time, all that spacing, whereas it's considerably more common. The highest-volume 3pt shooting team in the league in 2004 took 23.6 3PA/g: it was Seattle with Ray Allen and what was still fairly new and different in Rashard Lewis as a 2nd-option stretch 4. Today, that's 6.5 3PA/g fewer than the LOWEST-volume 3pt shooting team in the league (Detroit).

Context matters, man.

I don't know how people can see Kawhi Leonard, who is less athletic than even 1996-1998 MJ in every conceivable way, dominate and not conclude that prime MJ averages 40 ppg

He wouldn't be driving all game, there's a limit to the FG% he could shoot at the volume required to get to 40 ppg, and he likely wouldn't play the 40+ mpg it would take to get there in the first place, are some early thoughts which come to mind. Certainly wouldn't happen with 97 or 98 Jordan, and 96 and 97 were his peak as a shooter (and also included the pulled-in 3pt line).

Wade would be very good today, though.

[Pelly24]

I do think the league is more skilled now, but I'm sorry, it's clear these stats are inflated lol. TMac led the league in scoring in 2003-2004 with 28 ppg. AI averaged 26 ppg, and no one else averaged over 25 ppg that season. Now, there are 18 players scoring at least 25 ppg. That's not coincidence.

League average pace was 9 possessions slower per game, 3PAr was 18.7% compared to 39.2%, and McGrady played 39.9 mpg.

These are relevant factors. Spacing on the floor for teams is considerably different than it was then. It was NOTEWORTHY that the Spurs had a 3+D wing and some corner 3pt shooters in that era, much the same as with the 2000 Lakers or the 94 Rockets. This was a big deal at the time, all that spacing, whereas it's considerably more common. The highest-volume 3pt shooting team in the league in 2004 took 23.6 3PA/g: it was Seattle with Ray Allen and what was still fairly new and different in Rashard Lewis as a 2nd-option stretch 4. Today, that's 6.5 3PA/g fewer than the LOWEST-volume 3pt shooting team in the league (Detroit).

Context matters, man.

I don't know how people can see Kawhi Leonard, who is less athletic than even 1996-1998 MJ in every conceivable way, dominate and not conclude that prime MJ averages 40 ppg

He wouldn't be driving all game, there's a limit to the FG% he could shoot at the volume required to get to 40 ppg, and he likely wouldn't play the 40+ mpg it would take to get there in the first place, are some early thoughts which come to mind. Certainly wouldn't happen with 97 or 98 Jordan, and 96 and 97 were his peak as a shooter (and also included the pulled-in 3pt line).

Wade would be very good today, though.

Either way, wouldn't all of the extra shooting and possessions just make it easier for Dwade to score? Thats my whole point.

As for MJ, maybe I'm exaggerating slightly, but Harden averaged 36 ppg not long ago. Kobe averaged 35 in 06, Luka is averaging 34 now.

Mj wouldn't be a great shooter, but it's not hard to see him making two threes a game or something, getting to the line for between 9 and 12 attempts a game. When I say prime MJ, I'm saying more 88-93, though I think 95-98 MJ could average 32/8/8 on +4-6 or so TS% too.

[tsherkin]

Either way, wouldn't all of the extra shooting and possessions just make it easier for Dwade to score? Thats my whole point.

I wasn't really talking about Wade, more just extending the era-relevant conversation.

Mj wouldn't be a great shooter, but it's not hard to see him making two threes a game or something, getting to the line for between 9 and 12 attempts a game. When I say prime MJ, I'm saying more 88-93, though I think 95-98 MJ could average 32/8/8 on +4-6 or so TS% too.

MJ would be an excellent shooter, especially from like the 1990 through 1997 version of him. Even 98, really. Wouldn't necessarily be a great 3pt shooter, but he had stretches of his career where he was a capable shooter from 3.

I think you're overselling 1998 Jordan, but his younger self? Certainly the scoring, anyway. And if he took to PnR ball, then he could smash assists, sure. Don't know if that would be great for the team, because he was never quite the playmaker of many other guys in his own time, though obviously more than serviceable in that regard.

[RSCD3_]

honestly a lot of people are going, more spacing so any athletic slasher would be better is discounting how the "illegal defense" schemes evolving made it tougher to put direct pressure on the basket. I think these two factors more or less cancel out, maybe the spacing helps a decent bit more but im not sure its as crazy as yall are making it sound.

I'd definitely say TOP 4, JOKIC, GIANNIS, EMBIID (held back by DOC?) but how good idk. Probably 2-4 though. Jokic has a top 5-7 peak at lowest imo

[Pelly24]

Either way, wouldn't all of the extra shooting and possessions just make it easier for Dwade to score? Thats my whole point.

I wasn't really talking about Wade, more just extending the era-relevant conversation.

Mj wouldn't be a great shooter, but it's not hard to see him making two threes a game or something, getting to the line for between 9 and 12 attempts a game. When I say prime MJ, I'm saying more 88-93, though I think 95-98 MJ could average 32/8/8 on +4-6 or so TS% too.

MJ would be an excellent shooter, especially from like the 1990 through 1997 version of him. Even 98, really. Wouldn't necessarily be a great 3pt shooter, but he had stretches of his career where he was a capable shooter from 3.

I think you're overselling 1998 Jordan, but his younger self? Certainly the scoring, anyway. And if he took to PnR ball, then he could smash assists, sure. Don't know if that would be great for the team, because he was never quite the playmaker of many other guys in his own time, though obviously more than serviceable in that regard.

Yeah I ciyuld be overselling 98 MJ. But when I watch those highlights in the playoffs, its like he just is playing at a different speed than everyone else even at age 35. Such quick, decisive movements, such dexterity and touch and even effortless bounce too. His midrange game... just crazy.

[tsherkin]

Yeah I ciyuld be overselling 98 MJ. But when I watch those highlights in the playoffs, its like he just is playing at a different speed than everyone else even at age 35. Such quick, decisive movements, such dexterity and touch and even effortless bounce too. His midrange game... just crazy.

He knew what he was doing. Intention was very much a hallmark of prime and old Jordan; he wasn't really aimless or out of control. And with that jumper (which was ridiculous, especially at that volume), he could purchase extra space even though he'd clearly lost a step. And he was so much more into the post, where he didn't have to use as much burst. He could just catch, turn, bump and fade. He still had really good elevation, but also horizontal spacing on the fade, and an array of fakes you had to respect. He wasn't beating you with speed or verticality on the drive nearly as much, and you can see it in the fairly tame proportion of shots he was getting in close just as much as in the video watching the old games, right? He could still do it, but that's not an athlete who would stand out against the young bucks today... he's a guy who would get his more with guile and skill. Like, not to the degree of Washington MJ, obviously, he still had some burst and a lot of elevation and he'd boom on you if you screwed up, but he was very much more so using other things to get it done more regularly.

[Texas Chuck]

Great player. Would be a great player now. Arguing over where specifically he ranks is impossible of course. But he'd be a stud.

[Peregrine01]

lol It doesn't matter because Wade couldn't — and basically didn't — shoot threes that well or much at all in his own era with a more packed paint and no reliable second or even third options for a lot of that time — and people still couldn't keep him away from the basket and finishing at high efficiency. He is just physically superior to most guards in NBA history, really, probably all but one or two people. people in this thread are underrating his finishing ability, which is truly historically elite for basically anyone, especially high-usage guards.

If it didn't matter why did you bring it up?

Yes, Wade was a great finisher, but you're talking like he would shoot 60% from the field or something.

What matters is that Damian Lillard, who is significantly slower than Wade and smaller than Wade with a standing reach about 7 inches lower than Wade (7'11" versus 8'6") shot 67% at the rim last year. Y'all keep trying to act like I'm making some crazy point that's not supported by readily accessible data and really just the eye test lol. We're talking about potentially the greatest guard slasher ever. I'm not saying Wade would shoot 60% from the field. But he did average 30 on 50% from the field without a legit second or third option, I think 32/8/8 on 53% is totally possible, on about 62 TS%.

I think it's problematic to use Lillard in this comparison.

#1, he isn't "significantly slower" than Wade. If anything Lillard has one of the quickest first steps of any guard in this era. His main issue when getting into the paint is his size.

#2, Lillard is probably the second greatest pull-up 3 shooter in NBA history. And probably the second most dangerous high pick and roll player in NBA history. His shooting threat forces defenses to stretch out which gives him driving lanes that Wade wouldn't get.

[MyUniBroDavis]

If it didn't matter why did you bring it up?

Yes, Wade was a great finisher, but you're talking like he would shoot 60% from the field or something.

What matters is that Damian Lillard, who is significantly slower than Wade and smaller than Wade with a standing reach about 7 inches lower than Wade (7'11" versus 8'6") shot 67% at the rim last year. Y'all keep trying to act like I'm making some crazy point that's not supported by readily accessible data and really just the eye test lol. We're talking about potentially the greatest guard slasher ever. I'm not saying Wade would shoot 60% from the field. But he did average 30 on 50% from the field without a legit second or third option, I think 32/8/8 on 53% is totally possible, on about 62 TS%.

I think it's problematic to use Lillard in this comparison.

#1, he isn't "significantly slower" than Wade. If anything Lillard has one of the quickest first steps of any guard in this era. His main issue when getting into the paint is his size.

#2, Lillard is probably the second greatest pull-up 3 shooter in NBA history. And probably the second most dangerous high pick and roll player in NBA history. His shooting threat forces defenses to stretch out which gives him driving lanes that Wade wouldn't get.

Wade’s 3/4th quarter sprint time was 3.08 seconds, 5th in his class.
Lame agility was 2nd in his class, 10.56 seconds, half the test is lateral though



lillards 3/4th quarter sprint time was 3.34 seconds, 25th in his class.
lillards agility was 23rd in his class, 11.15 seconds


Agree it’s not a one to one comparison but it’s almost as if ur trying to argue lillard is a better slasher lol

[Peregrine01]

What matters is that Damian Lillard, who is significantly slower than Wade and smaller than Wade with a standing reach about 7 inches lower than Wade (7'11" versus 8'6") shot 67% at the rim last year. Y'all keep trying to act like I'm making some crazy point that's not supported by readily accessible data and really just the eye test lol. We're talking about potentially the greatest guard slasher ever. I'm not saying Wade would shoot 60% from the field. But he did average 30 on 50% from the field without a legit second or third option, I think 32/8/8 on 53% is totally possible, on about 62 TS%.

I think it's problematic to use Lillard in this comparison.

#1, he isn't "significantly slower" than Wade. If anything Lillard has one of the quickest first steps of any guard in this era. His main issue when getting into the paint is his size.

#2, Lillard is probably the second greatest pull-up 3 shooter in NBA history. And probably the second most dangerous high pick and roll player in NBA history. His shooting threat forces defenses to stretch out which gives him driving lanes that Wade wouldn't get.

Wade’s 3/4th quarter sprint time was 3.08 seconds, 5th in his class.
Lame agility was 2nd in his class, 10.56 seconds, half the test is lateral though



lillards 3/4th quarter sprint time was 3.34 seconds, 25th in his class.
lillards agility was 23rd in his class, 11.15 seconds


Agree it’s not a one to one comparison but it’s almost as if ur trying to argue lillard is a better slasher lol

First step as in burst. Lillard was never great end to end or laterally (one reason why his defense was always suspect). But he's one of the best guards I've seen in this era getting a first step on guys.