You can not win a title with a center such as Jokic if he can't play defence.

[coastalmarker99]

After allowing a league-worst 68.5% in 2021 and another league-worst 68.9% in 2022, the 2023 Nuggets are again allowing a league-worst 70.9% in the restricted area.

This would be the worst mark since the NBA’s tracking data started in 1997.

The Nuggets are currently 26th in overall defensive rating.


A big man that can’t really anchor a defence won't you win a title as teams will keep exposing Jokic's poor defence in the playoffs.


it's been 3 straight years where Jokic on the court in the playoffs = a worse defence than the worst regular-season defence in NBA history.

2019: 117.2 on, 105.1 off

2020: 123.5 on, 114.5 off

2021: 137.3 on, 108.6 off

We're talking over 31 playoff games.

That's over a 3rd of a season playing defense that, again, is far worse than any team in NBA history has ever played.


Furthermore.

You know it's really bad when guards are doing this against the nuggets every time they play.

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[1993Playoffs]

I really like Jokic offensively but in the playoffs defensively it’s been pretty brutal in some series.

[SHAQ32]

This reminds me of what they used to say about Dirk in the '00s.

[LukaTheGOAT]

He's at worst a top 7 offensive player ever. I believe you can win a title with him, although the degree of specialization needed to get there might be questionable. You can't tell me that if you somehow surrounded Jokic around an ecosystem like in Boston, that Jokic couldn't win a championship in that environment.

[eminence]

He's at worst a top 7 offensive player ever. I believe you can win a title with him, although the degree of specialization needed to get there might be questionable. You can't tell me that if you somehow surrounded Jokic around an ecosystem like in Boston, that Jokic couldn't win a championship in that environment.

I agree with the general premise, but minimum top 7 feels a tad generous, though I can see people having him there or even higher. Just the minimum bit.

I have 6 guys with strong arguments - Oscar, Magic, MJ, Nash, LeBron, Steph

And then there's all the rest - Shaq, Dirk, Bird, CP3, Kobe, Harden, KD, current Luka, West, KAJ, Wade, Barkley, and all hail 40's Mikan

[70sFan]

I think you can, you just need a specialized roster around him. His defense give me a pause though, because otherwise his offense is just incredible.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think you can, you just need a specialized roster around him. His defense give me a pause though, because otherwise his offense is just incredible.

Jokic’s defense is weird

Like he doesn’t seem horrendous and he’s a good RS defender, he’s actually decent in the pick and roll on more aggressive coverages and trapping and has great hands.

Otoh he’s just soooo slow in space and his rim protection leaves a lot to be desired, but he’s probably more of a moderate negative defensively in the playoffs than a historically bad defender

[70sFan]

I think you can, you just need a specialized roster around him. His defense give me a pause though, because otherwise his offense is just incredible.

Jokic’s defense is weird

Like he doesn’t seem horrendous and he’s a good RS defender, he’s actually decent in the pick and roll on more aggressive coverages and trapping and has great hands.

Otoh he’s just soooo slow in space and his rim protection leaves a lot to be desired, but he’s probably more of a moderate negative defensively in the playoffs than a historically bad defender

Jokic isn't historically bad defender, I agree. He's too smart and too big to be that bad. He also reads game well and has surprisingly quick hands. He's also top tier rebounder, which is always a bonus.

The problem with him is that a combination of slow feet and no rim protection makes him exploitable in the playoffs. I would like to see him surrounded by strong defenders, maybe his strength would shine and they'd his weaknesses then. For now though, he's not playing with a strong defensive cast and it will hurt him time and time again.

As I said before, he's the reverse David Robinson to me. It's clear that they both are extremely good but I question them against top tier bigs because I don't really know how to weigh their weaknesses. I mean, Jokic is quite good defensive player in RS when teams don't gameplan for him, but he struggled almost every time in the playoffs (outside of 2020 Clippers series). Robinson is even better RS offensive player (than Jokic on defense), but I struggle to evaluate him in the playoffs, because he's quite bad against strong defensive teams in the playoffs. That's why I usually have them in the next tier behind 6 greatest bigs ever for peaks (along with Walton and Moses, but these two are easier to evaluate for me).

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think you can, you just need a specialized roster around him. His defense give me a pause though, because otherwise his offense is just incredible.

Jokic’s defense is weird

Like he doesn’t seem horrendous and he’s a good RS defender, he’s actually decent in the pick and roll on more aggressive coverages and trapping and has great hands.

Otoh he’s just soooo slow in space and his rim protection leaves a lot to be desired, but he’s probably more of a moderate negative defensively in the playoffs than a historically bad defender

Jokic isn't historically bad defender, I agree. He's too smart and too big to be that bad. He also reads game well and has surprisingly quick hands. He's also top tier rebounder, which is always a bonus.

The problem with him is that a combination of slow feet and no rim protection makes him exploitable in the playoffs. I would like to see him surrounded by strong defenders, maybe his strength would shine and they'd his weaknesses then. For now though, he's not playing with a strong defensive cast and it will hurt him time and time again.

As I said before, he's the reverse David Robinson to me. It's clear that they both are extremely good but I question them against top tier bigs because I don't really know how to weigh their weaknesses. I mean, Jokic is quite good defensive player in RS when teams don't gameplan for him, but he struggled almost every time in the playoffs (outside of 2020 Clippers series). Robinson is even better RS offensive player, but I struggle to evaluate him in the playoffs, because he's quite bad against strong defensive teams in the playoffs. That's why I usually have them in the next tier behind 6 greatest bigs ever for peaks (along with Walton and Moses, but these two are easier to evaluate for me).

On the other hand i feel Jokic tends to be unlucky in the matchups he gets, the Suns/blazersx2/warriors are kind of horrible matchups for him defensively lol, but at the same time you probably should expect to be better in that regard, I think it’s one of those things where it’s happened enough that I’d wanna see how this postseason goes though.

Despite being overlooked his impact stuff has been solid so far, +23 net rtg, altho it’s probably a bit inflated since they’re a top heavy team and his backup is deandre lol.

The argument for how good Jokic is offensively Can go reaaaally high even in an all time sense so evaluating his peak if we do see him be defensively effective in the playoffs will be really interesting

[70sFan]

Jokic’s defense is weird

Like he doesn’t seem horrendous and he’s a good RS defender, he’s actually decent in the pick and roll on more aggressive coverages and trapping and has great hands.

Otoh he’s just soooo slow in space and his rim protection leaves a lot to be desired, but he’s probably more of a moderate negative defensively in the playoffs than a historically bad defender

Jokic isn't historically bad defender, I agree. He's too smart and too big to be that bad. He also reads game well and has surprisingly quick hands. He's also top tier rebounder, which is always a bonus.

The problem with him is that a combination of slow feet and no rim protection makes him exploitable in the playoffs. I would like to see him surrounded by strong defenders, maybe his strength would shine and they'd his weaknesses then. For now though, he's not playing with a strong defensive cast and it will hurt him time and time again.

As I said before, he's the reverse David Robinson to me. It's clear that they both are extremely good but I question them against top tier bigs because I don't really know how to weigh their weaknesses. I mean, Jokic is quite good defensive player in RS when teams don't gameplan for him, but he struggled almost every time in the playoffs (outside of 2020 Clippers series). Robinson is even better RS offensive player, but I struggle to evaluate him in the playoffs, because he's quite bad against strong defensive teams in the playoffs. That's why I usually have them in the next tier behind 6 greatest bigs ever for peaks (along with Walton and Moses, but these two are easier to evaluate for me).

On the other hand i feel Jokic tends to be unlucky in the matchups he gets, the Suns/blazersx2/warriors are kind of horrible matchups for him defensively lol, but at the same time you probably should expect to be better in that regard, I think it’s one of those things where it’s happened enough that I’d wanna see how this postseason goes though.

Despite being overlooked his impact stuff has been solid so far, +23 net rtg, altho it’s probably a bit inflated since they’re a top heavy team and his backup is deandre lol.

The argument for how good Jokic is offensively Can go reaaaally high even in an all time sense so evaluating his peak if we do see him be defensively effective in the playoffs will be really interesting

I don't remember him being good defensively against the Lakers in 2020 either and this team shouldn't be a bad matchup for him. Maybe I am wrong though.

We will see what happens this season. I hope the Nuggets will give us more than one series sample to make anything out of it.

[Statlanta]

No way PC Board users gonna let 70sFan get away with saying Robinson is a better regular season offensive player than Jokic.

[70sFan]

No way PC Board users gonna let 70sFan get away with saying Robinson is a better regular season offensive player than Jokic.

I just read my post and realized it suggested that it's my opinion (I already edited it).

No, I don't think Robinson is better offensively than Jokic. In fact, I don't think it's even close in favor of Joker. I meant that Robinson is a better offensive player than Jokic as a defender. I explained it really poorly, my fault.

[prolific passer]

This reminds me of what they used to say about Dirk in the '00s.

That's why he won in the 2010s.

[Colbinii]

It is significantly more difficult to win with Jokic at center in today's NBA than it would have been pre-2016/2017 when the Pace and Space era really took off. Prior to that, his offense is so much better than the leagues offense as a whole that he would have few issues winning a title.

[ty 4191]

I think you can, you just need a specialized roster around him. His defense give me a pause though, because otherwise his offense is just incredible.

Where do you rank Jokic's offense compared to all ATG Centers?

[70sFan]

I think you can, you just need a specialized roster around him. His defense give me a pause though, because otherwise his offense is just incredible.

Where do you rank Jokic's offense compared to all ATG Centers?

In the first tier with Kareem and Shaq, but probably at the top to be honest.

[ty 4191]

I think you can, you just need a specialized roster around him. His defense give me a pause though, because otherwise his offense is just incredible.

Where do you rank Jokic's offense compared to all ATG Centers?

In the first tier with Kareem and Shaq, but probably at the top to be honest.

I think given how much deeper the NBA is today compared to 25+ years ago- 120 players from 40 countries on 6 continents this year- Jokic is, probably, the greatest offensive center to ever play.

[kayess]

What's the current verdict on his defense?

I seem to recall it was "just" barely above average at worst; and solidly above average at best, based on (IIRC):
- EFG% allowed when he's the closest defender
- DRTG on/off differential
- correlating that with eye test to make up for e.g., help defense, etc. (he's slow, but smart, has good hands, can anticipate, which makes up for some - not all - his weaknesses)

Has anything changed in the meantime? Was the analysis revealed to be a bit more cherry-picked than usual?

[Peregrine01]

So if you replace Jokic with prime KG on these Nuggets would they be a good defense? I'm not sure. The Nuggets have two guards (KCP and Bruce Brown) who are defensively minded. Aaron Gordon is ok as a man defender but isn't protecting the rim. But who else do they have that you can legitimately call a plus defender? Murray, MPJ and Bones aren't stopping anyone. And the bench is comprised of guys like DeAndre Jordan and Jeff Green who are old and washed.

This Nuggets squad just doesn't have much good defensive players around Jokic. Imagine if he was on a team like the Raptors, or the Heat, would there be any questions like the topic title?

[70sFan]

Imagine if he was on a team like the Raptors, or the Heat, would there be any questions like the topic title?

Yes? I mean, it would definitely help him, but can we stop acting like Jokic being unable to protect the paint or stay in front of anyone on perimeter is only about him having mediocre teammates?