2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

[Dr Positivity]

The Clippers need to put together an amazing regular season and then face a play-in jobber in Rd 1 while Kawhi rests.

[Fadeaway_J]

The Clippers need to put together an amazing regular season and then face a play-in jobber in Rd 1 while Kawhi rests.

How do they do that with crappy depth and injury-prone stars?

[rk2023]

One half in and Wolves Nuggets is already running like it’s an intense round by round boxing match.

• MN ball pressure and their ability to make Jokic work his ass off for shots has worked out well, and I think it’s something they can continue to push Denver on. Murray needs to find himself rather soon.

• Bad mistakes from the Wolves and outright clanking shots / turning it over has helped Denver get back into this and eventually take the lead.

• MN half court offense isn’t good and they completely flamed out after the 18-4 start. The suns defense was just a lot worse comparatively. They’re not gonna win this series running an “Ant vs the world” offense.

[eminence]

That tech was lame.

[OhayoKD]

jokic elbowing gobert to score is wild

[penbeast0]

They finally went to Gobert toward the end. Minny was really playing the hot hand, first Ant, then KAT, then Naz, the (sort of) Gobert had (big to little) scoring streaks.

[TheGOATRises007]

Wolves are scary good

[rk2023]

That tech was lame.

On another note, the Jazz faithful must have been really happy to see those performances from Rudy and Conley tonight

[OhayoKD]

rudy poy stock skyrocketing every game

[70sFan]

Minny is the best defensive team I have watched in a very long time. The way Gobert contained Jokic-Gordon short roll actions is nothing short of incredible, I don't think I have ever seen anything like that before.

It's a huge win for the Wolves. I'm sure Nuggets will start to find holes in this incredible defense sooner or later, but the question is if they'll have enough time. I know it sounds tautological, but early wins for the Wolves are critical to win the series.

[tsherkin]

It's a huge win for the Wolves. I'm sure Nuggets will start to find holes in this incredible defense sooner or later, but the question is if they'll have enough time. I know it sounds tautological, but early wins for the Wolves are critical to win the series.

Yeah, I mean, it's a given that winning early sets the table and mounts the pressure on the opposition in a variety of ways but they got it done in the opener. And Ant looked great. Their 3pt shooting really put Denver in trouble and Naz Reid outscored Denver's entire bench. Conley, Reid and Towns shot 7/12 from 3 together. That... stung.

Jokic needs to figure a way out of this funk, too. And needs to stop taking so many 3s. Definitely not his game. And the turnovers, not ideal. We'll see what Game 2 looks like after the TWolves bloodied Denver's nose.

[eminence]

Big big win for Minnesota, I'm beginning to believe.

Denver wasn't especially poor, Minnesota wasn't playing above their heads. Felt replicable - #1 difference once again on the glass.

[Dutchball97]

Jokic might be the best player in the league but he's not some superhuman, which is just about what is necessary to get this Denver team past the Timberwolves imo. Denver lost their 6th and 7th man from their title run and simply didn't get any replacements at all. Reggie Jackson and Peyton Watson could barely be called rotation players last year and are being asked to do quite a bit now and it's not because they've suddenly made big jumps.

Then you've got KCP having an atrocious go off it on the offensive end so far this post-season, Gordon always makes himself useful but he can't seem to hit a shot outside the paint to save his life at the moment, while Murray somehow manages to consistently provide no value untill the second half. At least MPJ is popping off I guess.

As to the Timberwolves I'm well past the beginning to believe stage, at this point I don't know who is going to stop them from getting that ring. Anthony Edwards is a certified superstar in the play-offs, Gobert is far and away the best defensive player in the league, KAT is an absolutely unfair 3rd option and the only team who even comes close to their depth are the Celtics. If Denver turns this around or the Timberwolves burn out in the conference finals feel free to clown me but I honestly think this train won't stop before the finish line.

[falcolombardi]

Jokic might be the best player in the league but he's not some superhuman, which is just about what is necessary to get this Denver team past the Timberwolves imo. Denver lost their 6th and 7th man from their title run and simply didn't get any replacements at all. Reggie Jackson and Peyton Watson could barely be called rotation players last year and are being asked to do quite a bit now and it's not because they've suddenly made big jumps.

Then you've got KCP having an atrocious go off it on the offensive end so far this post-season, Gordon always makes himself useful but he can't seem to hit a shot outside the paint to save his life at the moment, while Murray somehow manages to consistently provide no value untill the second half. At least MPJ is popping off I guess.

As to the Timberwolves I'm well past the beginning to believe stage, at this point I don't know who is going to stop them from getting that ring. Anthony Edwards is a certified superstar in the play-offs, Gobert is far and away the best defensive player in the league, KAT is an absolutely unfair 3rd option and the only team who even comes close to their depth are the Celtics. If Denver turns this around or the Timberwolves burn out in the conference finals feel free to clown me but I honestly think this train won't stop before the finish line.

Not trying to be petty here but this is a wildly lower than the (admittedly unfair often) standard best in the world players usually get held to

Having a worse bench and maybe slightly worse starters is usually not accepted as a excuse for the top 1 player losing to the ...top 10? Player in the playoffs no matter what for the past 15 years

Like coming into the plauyoffs nobody argued towns/mcdaniels/ old ass conley were a way better trio than gordon/mpj/kcp and naz reid wouldnt usually be considered a unfair team difference

Hell, with previous top players (and yes i mostly mean lebron if it was not obvious) murray or gordon struggles woukd automatically get put on the top player fault

For all the talk of jokic as a goat tier contender this is a unusually lax standard to demand from him

[Ambrose]

Jokic might be the best player in the league but he's not some superhuman, which is just about what is necessary to get this Denver team past the Timberwolves imo. Denver lost their 6th and 7th man from their title run and simply didn't get any replacements at all. Reggie Jackson and Peyton Watson could barely be called rotation players last year and are being asked to do quite a bit now and it's not because they've suddenly made big jumps.

Then you've got KCP having an atrocious go off it on the offensive end so far this post-season, Gordon always makes himself useful but he can't seem to hit a shot outside the paint to save his life at the moment, while Murray somehow manages to consistently provide no value untill the second half. At least MPJ is popping off I guess.

As to the Timberwolves I'm well past the beginning to believe stage, at this point I don't know who is going to stop them from getting that ring. Anthony Edwards is a certified superstar in the play-offs, Gobert is far and away the best defensive player in the league, KAT is an absolutely unfair 3rd option and the only team who even comes close to their depth are the Celtics. If Denver turns this around or the Timberwolves burn out in the conference finals feel free to clown me but I honestly think this train won't stop before the finish line.

Not trying to be petty here but this is a wildly lower than the (admittedly unfair often) standard best in the world players usually get held to

Having a worse bench and maybe slightly worse starters is usually not accepted as a excuse for the top 1 player losing to the ...top 10? Player in the playoffs no matter what for the past 15 years

Like coming into the plauyoffs nobody argued towns/mcdaniels/ old ass conley were a way better trio than gordon/mpj/kcp and naz reid wouldnt usually be considered a unfair team difference

Hell, with previous top players (and yes i mostly mean lebron if it was not obvious) murray or gordon struggles woukd automatically get put on the top player fault

For all the talk of jokic as a goat tier contender this is a unusually lax standard to demand from him

You're basically saying we should see more people discredit Jokic, the clear #1 player in the world, because past casual fans were stupid? Not a great sell.

[falcolombardi]

Jokic might be the best player in the league but he's not some superhuman, which is just about what is necessary to get this Denver team past the Timberwolves imo. Denver lost their 6th and 7th man from their title run and simply didn't get any replacements at all. Reggie Jackson and Peyton Watson could barely be called rotation players last year and are being asked to do quite a bit now and it's not because they've suddenly made big jumps.

Then you've got KCP having an atrocious go off it on the offensive end so far this post-season, Gordon always makes himself useful but he can't seem to hit a shot outside the paint to save his life at the moment, while Murray somehow manages to consistently provide no value untill the second half. At least MPJ is popping off I guess.

As to the Timberwolves I'm well past the beginning to believe stage, at this point I don't know who is going to stop them from getting that ring. Anthony Edwards is a certified superstar in the play-offs, Gobert is far and away the best defensive player in the league, KAT is an absolutely unfair 3rd option and the only team who even comes close to their depth are the Celtics. If Denver turns this around or the Timberwolves burn out in the conference finals feel free to clown me but I honestly think this train won't stop before the finish line.

Not trying to be petty here but this is a wildly lower than the (admittedly unfair often) standard best in the world players usually get held to

Having a worse bench and maybe slightly worse starters is usually not accepted as a excuse for the top 1 player losing to the ...top 10? Player in the playoffs no matter what for the past 15 years

Like coming into the plauyoffs nobody argued towns/mcdaniels/ old ass conley were a way better trio than gordon/mpj/kcp and naz reid wouldnt usually be considered a unfair team difference

Hell, with previous top players (and yes i mostly mean lebron if it was not obvious) murray or gordon struggles woukd automatically get put on the top player fault

For all the talk of jokic as a goat tier contender this is a unusually lax standard to demand from him

You're basically saying we should see more people discredit Jokic, the clear #1 player in the world, because past casual fans were stupid? Not a great sell.

No, i am wondering why jokic is getting goat level talk without the same level of scrutiny/demand players in that tier get and why that may be

[Ambrose]

Not trying to be petty here but this is a wildly lower than the (admittedly unfair often) standard best in the world players usually get held to

Having a worse bench and maybe slightly worse starters is usually not accepted as a excuse for the top 1 player losing to the ...top 10? Player in the playoffs no matter what for the past 15 years

Like coming into the plauyoffs nobody argued towns/mcdaniels/ old ass conley were a way better trio than gordon/mpj/kcp and naz reid wouldnt usually be considered a unfair team difference

Hell, with previous top players (and yes i mostly mean lebron if it was not obvious) murray or gordon struggles woukd automatically get put on the top player fault

For all the talk of jokic as a goat tier contender this is a unusually lax standard to demand from him

You're basically saying we should see more people discredit Jokic, the clear #1 player in the world, because past casual fans were stupid? Not a great sell.

No, i am wondering why jokic is getting goat level talk without the same level of scrutiny players in that tier get and why that may be

Because he's on a 4 year stretch of remarkable offensive play and the reigning finals MVP. If he plays like he did in game 1 throughout the series and loses in round 2, it's all going to stop, and the scrutiny is going to fly in.

[Dutchball97]

Jokic might be the best player in the league but he's not some superhuman, which is just about what is necessary to get this Denver team past the Timberwolves imo. Denver lost their 6th and 7th man from their title run and simply didn't get any replacements at all. Reggie Jackson and Peyton Watson could barely be called rotation players last year and are being asked to do quite a bit now and it's not because they've suddenly made big jumps.

Then you've got KCP having an atrocious go off it on the offensive end so far this post-season, Gordon always makes himself useful but he can't seem to hit a shot outside the paint to save his life at the moment, while Murray somehow manages to consistently provide no value untill the second half. At least MPJ is popping off I guess.

As to the Timberwolves I'm well past the beginning to believe stage, at this point I don't know who is going to stop them from getting that ring. Anthony Edwards is a certified superstar in the play-offs, Gobert is far and away the best defensive player in the league, KAT is an absolutely unfair 3rd option and the only team who even comes close to their depth are the Celtics. If Denver turns this around or the Timberwolves burn out in the conference finals feel free to clown me but I honestly think this train won't stop before the finish line.

Not trying to be petty here but this is a wildly lower than the (admittedly unfair often) standard best in the world players usually get held to

Having a worse bench and maybe slightly worse starters is usually not accepted as a excuse for the top 1 player losing to the ...top 10? Player in the playoffs no matter what for the past 15 years

Like coming into the plauyoffs nobody argued towns/mcdaniels/ old ass conley were a way better trio than gordon/mpj/kcp and naz reid wouldnt usually be considered a unfair team difference

Hell, with previous top players (and yes i mostly mean lebron if it was not obvious) murray or gordon struggles woukd automatically get put on the top player fault

For all the talk of jokic as a goat tier contender this is a unusually lax standard to demand from him

A good bench is underrated imo and people are overlooking just how dreadfully lackluster Denver's bench. Even then I'm mostly putting this on Murray, Gordan and KCP not performing like what is expected of them. Sure Jokic didn't have his best game but even if he did would it have mattered, I'm not sure.

I personally don't think I blame GOAT tier players for losing to significantly more stacked teams. I don't hold it against Wilt he didn't beat the Celtics when he was on the Warriors, I don't blame Kareem for losing to the Blazers in 1977, I don't blame Jordan for not getting past the Pistons in the late 80s and I don't blame LeBron for not beating the superteam Celtics in 2008 and 2010, or for losing to the Spurs in 2014 and especially not against the 2017 and 2018 Warriors.

To be clear I do put scrutiny on LeBron for 2011 but that's because he lost with a better supporting cast. 2009 and 2015 are arguable in my eyes whether LeBron deserves to be blamed for those losses and even if he does it's not entirely his fault at the very least.

I also don't view Jokic on a GOAT trajectory, more like top 10, maybe that plays a role in how harsh I'd be too.

[falcolombardi]

Jokic might be the best player in the league but he's not some superhuman, which is just about what is necessary to get this Denver team past the Timberwolves imo. Denver lost their 6th and 7th man from their title run and simply didn't get any replacements at all. Reggie Jackson and Peyton Watson could barely be called rotation players last year and are being asked to do quite a bit now and it's not because they've suddenly made big jumps.

Then you've got KCP having an atrocious go off it on the offensive end so far this post-season, Gordon always makes himself useful but he can't seem to hit a shot outside the paint to save his life at the moment, while Murray somehow manages to consistently provide no value untill the second half. At least MPJ is popping off I guess.

As to the Timberwolves I'm well past the beginning to believe stage, at this point I don't know who is going to stop them from getting that ring. Anthony Edwards is a certified superstar in the play-offs, Gobert is far and away the best defensive player in the league, KAT is an absolutely unfair 3rd option and the only team who even comes close to their depth are the Celtics. If Denver turns this around or the Timberwolves burn out in the conference finals feel free to clown me but I honestly think this train won't stop before the finish line.

Not trying to be petty here but this is a wildly lower than the (admittedly unfair often) standard best in the world players usually get held to

Having a worse bench and maybe slightly worse starters is usually not accepted as a excuse for the top 1 player losing to the ...top 10? Player in the playoffs no matter what for the past 15 years

Like coming into the plauyoffs nobody argued towns/mcdaniels/ old ass conley were a way better trio than gordon/mpj/kcp and naz reid wouldnt usually be considered a unfair team difference

Hell, with previous top players (and yes i mostly mean lebron if it was not obvious) murray or gordon struggles woukd automatically get put on the top player fault

For all the talk of jokic as a goat tier contender this is a unusually lax standard to demand from him

A good bench is underrated imo and people are overlooking just how dreadfully lackluster Denver's bench. Even then I'm mostly putting this on Murray, Gordan and KCP not performing like what is expected of them. Sure Jokic didn't have his best game but even if he did would it have mattered, I'm not sure.

I personally don't think I blame GOAT tier players for losing to significantly more stacked teams. I don't hold it against Wilt he didn't beat the Celtics when he was on the Warriors, I don't blame Kareem for losing to the Blazers in 1977, I don't blame Jordan for not getting past the Pistons in the late 80s and I don't blame LeBron for not beating the superteam Celtics in 2008 and 2010, or for losing to the Spurs in 2014 and especially not against the 2017 and 2018 Warriors.

To be clear I do put scrutiny on LeBron for 2011 but that's because he lost with a better supporting cast. 2009 and 2015 are arguable in my eyes whether LeBron deserves to be blamed for those losses and even if he does it's not entirely his fault at the very least.

I also don't view Jokic on a GOAT trajectory, more like top 10, maybe that plays a role in how harsh I'd be too.

2009 lebron vs orlando is a contender for the bedt he has ever played
It would be insane to blame him for that one when 2010 is right there as a fine in a vacuum but underwhelming for him series

2015 was also lebron playing with a bad back and no scorer help

Saying that jokic has a way worse support cast, or even a way worse performing cast off 1 game is wild too

[Texas Chuck]

Nothing amazes me more than this board and its obsession on evaluating players not on their own play but rather on the perceived quality of their teammates.

This will never ever make sense to me.

Also, I really hate Mike Conley getting the Sam Cassell treatment here. Where instead of focusing on the reality that he's a good player clearly helping his team in meaningful ways, we describe him solely by his age to justify our narrative of bad teammates because we think that's the best way to evaluate individual players.

I also think we are wildly overreacting to one game. Burying Jokic and the Nuggets isn't something I'm at all prepared to do after one game. I'm taking nothing away from Minnesota who has been good all year and great in the playoffs. But Denver is a legit defending champion here.