Where would Peak Wade rank today?

[Mazter]

but give me someone who can create open looks for their teammates while stretching a defense.

Puzzling statement given that's what Wade was doing before LeBron showed up in 2011. And there are more ways than stretching a defense to create open looks for teammates while being a floor general.

The Heat ranked 24th,30th, 20th and 19th in the 4 seasons before LeBron arrived.

[McBubbles]

but give me someone who can create open looks for their teammates while stretching a defense.

Puzzling statement given that's what Wade was doing before LeBron showed up in 2011. And there are more ways than stretching a defense to create open looks for teammates while being a floor general.

The Heat ranked 24th,30th, 20th and 19th in the 4 seasons before LeBron arrived.

They were either ridiculously injured or ridiculously **** from 07-10. When relatively healthy in 05 and 06 their offences were 7th and 5th respectively.

[tone wone]

Best guard in the league.

[DCasey91]

Basically a mini Lebron. Dude was a truck going through people with less space/less modernized gameplan.

Also of the best pnr guards ever, and the NBA is a gluttony of pnr/stacked pnr with multiple screening action.

He has players like Mitchell/Edwards well covered on the athleticism front. Comfortably most athletic guard in the NBA.

I’m biased as he’s my fav player growing up. Did more bs finishes than Irving

Stylistically it would be if a bigger, stronger Butler had a turbo behind him and then some (Wade is big like proper big and knew it too with the bully stuff). Lighting in split and downhill actions.

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUXRHdheW5lIHdhZGUgbWF4YW1pbGxpb24%3D

Plenty instances of splitting, downhill, being way too big/strong, knocking people over or too nimble to guard. He did shake the rim a couple of times. But look at how many times there was 3-4 players in the way and he’d either snake through with elite speed/control or put simply go full Giannis/Lebron running back mode.

Dudes the second strongest guard after Kawhi and a long ass wingspan to boot.

With 4/5 out true offence yeah he’d be a monster.

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUYVGhpbmtpbmcgYmFza2V0YmFsbCB3YWRl

Taylor did a rewatch of the second game 05 vs the Pistons, year 2 btw. Superstar

[MMyhre]

Borderline top 10. There should be an option to vote him outside the top 10.

Screw your freedom, jail him Arnold.

[One_and_Done]

His weak 3pt shot would be a major issue.

[MMyhre]

His weak 3pt shot would be a major issue.

His incredible first step, crossover, body control, acceleration, speed, strength, creativity, playmaking, layups and dunks would be a major issue. For the opposing teams. Morant was popping the **** off shooting 30 % from 3, and Wade is the bigger, better bully version of him.

[MMyhre]

but give me someone who can create open looks for their teammates while stretching a defense.

Puzzling statement given that's what Wade was doing before LeBron showed up in 2011. And there are more ways than stretching a defense to create open looks for teammates while being a floor general.

Wade definitely put pressure on a defense with his slashing, but his shooting, while not abysmal, was not a fundamental piece of his game. He was good enough to keep the defense honest and it opened up his drives, but i always got the impression that Wade needed others to create space for him to operate instead of the opposite.

Watch the 06 finals mate... the guy doesnt even need space, he just gets to where he wants and finishes. He was a genius driving force with the basketball... they say he just learned moves immediately, like he just picked up moves with ease and added it into his game, making him the incredibly diverse finisher going towards the rim he was.

[One_and_Done]

His weak 3pt shot would be a major issue.

His incredible first step, crossover, body control, acceleration, speed, strength, creativity, playmaking, layups and dunks would be a major issue. For the opposing teams. Morant was popping the **** off shooting 30 % from 3, and Wade is the bigger, better bully version of him.

And where does Morant rank today? Also what does Morant shoot from 3 now?

[LukaTheGOAT]

Puzzling statement given that's what Wade was doing before LeBron showed up in 2011. And there are more ways than stretching a defense to create open looks for teammates while being a floor general.

The Heat ranked 24th,30th, 20th and 19th in the 4 seasons before LeBron arrived.

They were either ridiculously injured or ridiculously **** from 07-10. When relatively healthy in 05 and 06 their offences were 7th and 5th respectively.

2005-2006; 2009-11 MIAMI HEAT in the PS with and without Wade:

+0.7 rORTG in 2857 min Wade on floor
50.94% from 2
34.69% from 3

-10.36 rORTG in 96.74 min Wade off floor
47.96% from 2
35.12% from 3

Wade was lifting weaker offensive teams.

[Pelly24]

The disparity in responses between this and the kobe thread are pretty wild. Kobe's case for "not optimized in era" is much stronger.

Would take Giannis and Jokic. Embid theoretically better but needs a healthy postseason. Steph may have a case too. Small slashers should stand out less in today's league. In a league where a near 40-Lebron is harder to stop at the rim than shai or ja statistically, not seeing how people are expecting Wade to improve.

Based on?

That aside, lesser era for offenses isn't meaningful either way inofitself. The point is to stand out from the field, not to up your raw production.

Honestly I don't know what you mean by the small slashers comment. 2008-2009 wade took 581 shots at the rim in 71 games, which is over 7 attempts a game, and he Made 66% of those shots

Here, let me put it simpler:
Wade making more attempts at the rim today with more spacing doesn't mean anything. Everyone's spacing is going up including the players wade is competing against. So either Wade stands out more than he did when he played or he gets worse.

I really don't understand why people reply and then repeat the thing that was addressed in the reply. "spacing -> more stats -> better" is not how era-translation works.

Wade stands out because his attempts would go up even more. The more easily you can score at the rim the more impactful you are offensively, and the more people have to foul you. Wade is much more powerful than Ja Morant while being better at abrupt stops and cuts. He was much faster and thicker than Shai Gilgeous Alexander. He was basically like a shiftier Adrian Peterson on the court. He's a much better defender than either of them. Great decision maker, high IQ. You're making it sound like he was some stat padder lol.

Numbers aside, we saw Wade completely dominate the 2006 playoffs. We saw how dominant he and LeBron could be together. In real time, he was the best player in the league besides LeBron and cp3 and maybe Kobe. He was playing against some of the greatest players of all time. He was possibly the fastest and most powerful shooting guard ever, with only MJ being real rival. His superior athleticism, size and instincts would make him one of the best players today like he was then. Russell Westbrook completely dominated as recently as 2017 and he's shorter with worse coordination and a worse midrange jump shooter. We've seen Jimmy Butler outplay Giannis and match up well with LeBron. Jimmy is incredible and has been a top 10 player. Wade was still better.

This is you overthinking.

[Pelly24]

His weak 3pt shot would be a major issue.

Jimmy Butler is a bad three-point shooter but has dominated in the playoffs. He's a little taller, but wade is much, much faster and more athletic in nearly every way with a far superior handle and even better playmaking ability.

[Pelly24]

Basically a mini Lebron. Dude was a truck going through people with less space/less modernized gameplan.

Also of the best pnr guards ever, and the NBA is a gluttony of pnr/stacked pnr with multiple screening action.

He has players like Mitchell/Edwards well covered on the athleticism front. Comfortably most athletic guard in the NBA.

I’m biased as he’s my fav player growing up. Did more bs finishes than Irving

Stylistically it would be if a bigger, stronger Butler had a turbo behind him and then some (Wade is big like proper big and knew it too with the bully stuff). Lighting in split and downhill actions.

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUXRHdheW5lIHdhZGUgbWF4YW1pbGxpb24%3D

Plenty instances of splitting, downhill, being way too big/strong, knocking people over or too nimble to guard. He did shake the rim a couple of times. But look at how many times there was 3-4 players in the way and he’d either snake through with elite speed/control or put simply go full Giannis/Lebron running back mode.

Dudes the second strongest guard after Kawhi and a long ass wingspan to boot.

With 4/5 out true offence yeah he’d be a monster.

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUYVGhpbmtpbmcgYmFza2V0YmFsbCB3YWRl

Taylor did a rewatch of the second game 05 vs the Pistons, year 2 btw. Superstar

This is all super accurate. People I don't think have a real concept of how physically dominant prime Wade was. He wasn't a guard that had to worry about playing around bigs or evading contact, even though he had the agility to do so. He was the one dishing out the punishment. He was the one you needed to get out of the way of. He was a 6'4" LeBron with a better first step and more agility because he was shorter.

[OhayoKD]

Honestly I don't know what you mean by the small slashers comment. 2008-2009 wade took 581 shots at the rim in 71 games, which is over 7 attempts a game, and he Made 66% of those shots

Here, let me put it simpler:
Wade making more attempts at the rim today with more spacing doesn't mean anything. Everyone's spacing is going up including the players wade is competing against. So either Wade stands out more than he did when he played or he gets worse.

I really don't understand why people reply and then repeat the thing that was addressed in the reply. "spacing -> more stats -> better" is not how era-translation works.

Wade stands out because his attempts would go up even more. The more easily you can score at the rim the more impactful you are offensively, and the more people have to foul you. .

No.

If the other team also sees their players ability to finish at the rim go up at a similar rate then the "impact" is cancelled out leaving wade no better relative to the field.

I'm not overthinking, you just haven't thought this through. Maybe this time you'll actually address what you're replying? Or just repeat yourself...

[tsherkin]

Here, let me put it simpler:
Wade making more attempts at the rim today with more spacing doesn't mean anything. Everyone's spacing is going up including the players wade is competing against. So either Wade stands out more than he did when he played or he gets worse.

I really don't understand why people reply and then repeat the thing that was addressed in the reply. "spacing -> more stats -> better" is not how era-translation works.

Wade stands out because his attempts would go up even more. The more easily you can score at the rim the more impactful you are offensively, and the more people have to foul you. .

No.

If the other team also sees their players ability to finish at the rim go up at a similar rate then the "impact" is cancelled out leaving wade no better relative to the field.

I'm not overthinking, you just haven't thought this through. Maybe this time you'll actually address what you're replying? Or just repeat yourself...

Pelly, I believe what Ohayo is trying to say here is that Wade isn't alone in benefiting from how the era has changed things. What needs to happen is superior separation due to era, that sound about right, Ohayo?

Wade would love the transition environment in this faster-paced league and he'd surely love the spacing. In his own time, he was something like a 106 TS+ / +3% rTS guy who did penetrate-and-pitch well and knew how to use the pick and roll to his advantage. The real question is what could he do to elevate himself above that 58% mark? Rim attempts would help. 05-12, his offensive impact was pretty strong and clear, especially in 2009 and 2010. He was a monster in those seasons, and if that level of Wade translated, he'd be an easy top 3 player in the league today, I think. The game is well-suited to his style of play and he had all the right tools to exploit that.

[Pelly24]

Wade stands out because his attempts would go up even more. The more easily you can score at the rim the more impactful you are offensively, and the more people have to foul you. .

No.

If the other team also sees their players ability to finish at the rim go up at a similar rate then the "impact" is cancelled out leaving wade no better relative to the field.

I'm not overthinking, you just haven't thought this through. Maybe this time you'll actually address what you're replying? Or just repeat yourself...

Pelly, I believe what Ohayo is trying to say here is that Wade isn't alone in benefiting from how the era has changed things. What needs to happen is superior separation due to era, that sound about right, Ohayo?

Wade would love the transition environment in this faster-paced league and he'd surely love the spacing. In his own time, he was something like a 106 TS+ / +3% rTS guy who did penetrate-and-pitch well and knew how to use the pick and roll to his advantage. The real question is what could he do to elevate himself above that 58% mark? Rim attempts would help. 05-12, his offensive impact was pretty strong and clear, especially in 2009 and 2010. He was a monster in those seasons, and if that level of Wade translated, he'd be an easy top 3 player in the league today, I think. The game is well-suited to his style of play and he had all the right tools to exploit that.

Yeah Idk I feel like I get what's going on, I just don't understand his point or accept that line of thinking. Yes it's easier to score at the rim today, so why wouldn't Wade score even more easily? He had more volume and efficiency than the best slashers now, so why wouldn't he just get even more free throw attempts and free throws? That's my thing. He would be overwhelmingly dominant physically now just like he was then. I think

And then yes, I think his P&R and kick out game would be even better today, I think he might trade in one or two midrange jumpers for couple more three-point attempts, maybe knock them down at 33%. I think he could hunt a couple more fouls, his TS% would probably hover around 59-61 TS%. Then his defense would still be ridiculous. And then his IQ, etc.


Idk, it almost feels like it's a waste of time to try to argue parts of this out. We've seen Wade dominate at the highest levels of basketball. I'm not taking anyone but Jokic and maybe Luka over him in today's game. I've seen Giannis and Embiid fizzle out too much. Steph is older, I don't think he's the same one-man engine peak wade is at this very moment. LeBron is so good he might be a good choice. SGA gotta get it done in the playoffs before I entertain that. Same with Haliburton.

[tsherkin]

Yeah Idk I feel like I get what's going on, I just don't understand his point or accept that line of thinking. Yes it's easier to score at the rim today, so why wouldn't Wade score even more easily? He had more volume and efficiency than the best slashers now, so why wouldn't he just get even more free throw attempts and free throws? That's my thing. He would be overwhelmingly dominant physically now just like he was then. I think

"More volume and efficiency than the best slashers now" is a bit of an exaggeration. Wade didn't start shooting 70%+ from 0-3 feet until he was playing with Lebron and was already into his 30s in 2013, so the volume wasn't there by the time we started to see him shooting that well. Remember, league average from 0-3 is 69.3% against Wade's Miami average of 65.8%. Naturally, we'd expect to see his FG% rise due to changes in spacing, pace and so forth, but only so much. Lebron's been a little shy of 80% the past couple of seasons, but he's also been posting 70%+ since 2005 and is much larger than Wade.

And then yes, I think his P&R and kick out game would be even better today, I think he might trade in one or two midrange jumpers for couple more three-point attempts, maybe knock them down at 33%. I think he could hunt a couple more fouls, his TS% would probably hover around 59-61 TS%. Then his defense would still be ridiculous. And then his IQ, etc.

Wade has 3 seasons where he shot better than 30.2% from 3 in his career, and one was his rookie season on 0.9 3PA/g. 33% is probably pushing it a little, unless he started to get into the corner. He wasn't that good a shooter. Remember, he was a 38.6% guy from 16-23 feet in his career; perimeter shooting wasn't a strength for him to any sort of consistent degree. He murdered you inside 10 feet, and you just prayed that his pull-ups and such weren't going. Otherwise, bleh, on a night to night basis.

He'd still be excellent today, though. He'd likely see a larger proportion of his shots at the rim, his rim FG% would rise, more transition opportunities. I don't think it's a question that he would, at the very least, match his own actual prime rTS% and scoring volume. He was a better playmaker than Jayson Tatum, for example, which helps set the table some. Respect where due, right? He had the tools, he had the talent. Hard to gauge exactly what he could do with his capricious jumper, but still.

[One_and_Done]

His weak 3pt shot would be a major issue.

Jimmy Butler is a bad three-point shooter but has dominated in the playoffs. He's a little taller, but wade is much, much faster and more athletic in nearly every way with a far superior handle and even better playmaking ability.

And we consider Jimmy a borderline top 10 player in the league most years. When he is ranked higher it's in the playoffs, and not coincidentally that's when he starts hitting 3s.

[70sFan]

His weak 3pt shot would be a major issue.

Jimmy Butler is a bad three-point shooter but has dominated in the playoffs. He's a little taller, but wade is much, much faster and more athletic in nearly every way with a far superior handle and even better playmaking ability.

And we consider Jimmy a borderline top 10 player in the league most years. When he is ranked higher it's in the playoffs, and not coincidentally that's when he starts hitting 3s.

Butler doesn't shoot threes better than prime Wade in the playoffs though.

[One_and_Done]

Jimmy Butler is a bad three-point shooter but has dominated in the playoffs. He's a little taller, but wade is much, much faster and more athletic in nearly every way with a far superior handle and even better playmaking ability.

And we consider Jimmy a borderline top 10 player in the league most years. When he is ranked higher it's in the playoffs, and not coincidentally that's when he starts hitting 3s.

Butler doesn't shoot threes better than prime Wade in the playoffs though.

He tends to in the series were he goes into godmode and gets ranked in a loftier way.