2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread

[AEnigma]

I think leading a defensive rating six points worse than any other contending player probably covers at least the bulk of that box score disparity.

[Dutchball97]

It's one game that confirms my suspsicions I've had the entire play-offs. I mean even in the comment you quoted of me I say Gobert is the DPOY so of course he's been great defensively but the people pushing him for POY are on something. It's proven time and time again team defense > team offense but individuals are always going to be able to swing games much more on offense than on defense. This "one game" shows Gobert isn't just making this Timberwolves team into a defensive juggernaut on his own and it's not just a decent supporting cast, this team is stacked defensively from top to bottom.

Not unreasonable.

but what if they all defend like this in large part due to Rudy Gobert making all that defensive effort super worthwhile? Imagine being the same guys and defending like crazy and then you get screened and Towns continually gets beat? Its human nature to think why I am working so hard just to have it undone.

Players can create culture. Edwards has clearly given them some needed swag and belief offensively. Gobert gives them the ability to be the best defense in the league. And so when he misses a game and for a reason like the birth of his kid, guys are going to want to step up and not let him down.

We saw the Mavs 2 years ago play good offense against Gobert and the Jazz without Luka. Brunson had his coming out party. Didn't mean Luka wasn't the driving force of the offense or that they didn't need him.

One game samples are just that.

Never said Gobert wasn't the driving force of the defense or that the Wolves don't need him but for someone who provides so little on the offensive end as he does, his defensive impact would have to be unheard of in the modern era for his overall impact to overcome the offensive standouts and 2-way stars. At least that's my opinion.

In the regular season it's very close as to who is the most impactful player for the Wolves with certain stats predictably favoring Ant (BPM and EPM) or Gobert (WS and LEBRON) based on archetype but in my eyes the most telling stat was +- with Ant being a +5.5 and Gobert a +5.4. A neglible difference that goes to show just how imporant both of them have been for their success this year. However, in my eyes this goes out of the window in the play-offs. Gobert has definitely silenced some doubters by not only being the #1 deterrent at the rim but also operating succesfully on the perimeter. Still though, Ant has raised his level of play in the post-season just like he did last year and I find it hard not to see him as the clear leader on the Wolves so far in the post-season.

[Texas Chuck]

Never said Gobert wasn't the driving force of the defense or that the Wolves don't need him but for someone who provides so little on the offensive end as he does, his defensive impact would have to be unheard of in the modern era for his overall impact to overcome the offensive standouts and 2-way stars. At least that's my opinion.

Not unheard of-- Draymond's defensive impact was rivaling Steph's offensive impact on the era's dynasty team.

But I think you also minimize Gobert's offensive impact.

He is in the discussion for best in the league at offensive rebounding, screening, and rim running(weakest case here imo). All very valuable contributions to modern offense.

We have to be careful not to mix skill with impact. Boogie Cousins had a lot of offensive skill. So did Jahlil Okafor. So did Al Jefferson. But offensive impact? Not nearly what you'd think based on the skills they had. But take relatively limited centers like Rudy Gobert or Tyson Chandler or DeAndre Jordan who just set screens and rolled hard and created extra possessions. This allowed them to play key roles on some of the best offenses in the league. I mean look at those Jazz teams leading the league in offense. Spida is a lower level first option and Bojan, Conley, Clarkson, O'Neale, Ingles are okay offensive players, but Gobert played a big part in helping that offense be greater than the sum of the parts.

It's not about being toolsy. It's about playing in a way that helps your team. Gobert absolutely has done that on offense throughout his career. It's like those who try and use modern efficiency to call Bill Russell a negative offensive player. We have to ignore him being among the league leaders in FG%, we have to ignore his passing, his incredible transition work, his ability to let the Celtics play against set defenses less often etc...

Once we look at what a player is actually doing and now how he looks, we can start to think maybe its not unreasonable this is one of the very best players in the league even if he doesn't look like what I think that should look like.

[Dutchball97]

Never said Gobert wasn't the driving force of the defense or that the Wolves don't need him but for someone who provides so little on the offensive end as he does, his defensive impact would have to be unheard of in the modern era for his overall impact to overcome the offensive standouts and 2-way stars. At least that's my opinion.

Not unheard of-- Draymond's defensive impact was rivaling Steph's offensive impact on the era's dynasty team.

But I think you also minimize Gobert's offensive impact.

He is in the discussion for best in the league at offensive rebounding, screening, and rim running(weakest case here imo). All very valuable contributions to modern offense.

We have to be careful not to mix skill with impact. Boogie Cousins had a lot of offensive skill. So did Jahlil Okafor. So did Al Jefferson. But offensive impact? Not nearly what you'd think based on the skills they had. But take relatively limited centers like Rudy Gobert or Tyson Chandler or DeAndre Jordan who just set screens and rolled hard and created extra possessions. This allowed them to play key roles on some of the best offenses in the league. I mean look at those Jazz teams leading the league in offense. Spida is a lower level first option and Bojan, Conley, Clarkson, O'Neale, Ingles are okay offensive players, but Gobert played a big part in helping that offense be greater than the sum of the parts.

It's not about being toolsy. It's about playing in a way that helps your team. Gobert absolutely has done that on offense throughout his career. It's like those who try and use modern efficiency to call Bill Russell a negative offensive player. We have to ignore him being among the league leaders in FG%, we have to ignore his passing, his incredible transition work, his ability to let the Celtics play against set defenses less often etc...

Once we look at what a player is actually doing and now how he looks, we can start to think maybe its not unreasonable this is one of the very best players in the league even if he doesn't look like what I think that should look like.

I agree on the Russell comparison. Neither are negative offensive players but do provide the vast majority of their total impact on the defensive end. The big difference is Russell played at a time when spacing was something astronauts did and not something that happened on basketball courts. There are still ways around Gobert in this era that can only be covered by strong perimeter defenders in a way that wasn't needed for Russell or to a lesser extent more recent examples of all-time great defensive anchors like Hakeem or Duncan.

It's not so much about what a player looks like on the court, especially because of just how impressive Gobert does look, but what part of a team's success we can reasonably attribute to one player. And I do think people here tend to attribute most, if not almost all, of a team's defense to their rim protecting big. Maybe this is a countermovement to general audiences calling centers unplayable defensively in the modern era, maybe it's a holdover from earlier eras when rim protectors were without a doubt the beginning and the end of a good defense, but it does seem to me just about everyone (me included) is still trying to get the balance right in terms of properly dividing up defensive impact among teammates in the modern era. At the moment I don't think Gobert's defensive impact is currently outweighing what Brunson is doing on the offensive end for the Knicks for example but the play-offs are still long so let's see what the coming rounds show us.

Edit: just a small sidenote I don't think you can compare Gobert and Dray offensively with the amount of playmaking Dray was responsible for.

[Special_Puppy]

I think leading a defensive rating six points worse than any other contending player probably covers at least the bulk of that box score disparity.

FWIW Average Prior EPM so far in the playoffs
Jokic: +4.9
SGA: +3.6
Luka: +5.3
Brunson: +1.5
Ant: +8.4 (!)

[Texas Chuck]

so here's hoping that all the polling is correct and SGA finishes well ahead of Luka for 2nd in MVP. This is the kind of thing that motivates Luka. Now not sure his body will cooperate but I want a feeling disrespected Luka out there.

But last night SGA was showing why he's in the running for POY. Love watching that guy play.

[rk2023]

Could see the case for Mobley being 2nd in my DPOY D’or ballot if he keeps up his playoff run we’ve seen so far. He definitely has his warts on O, but there’s a lot more discourse about who he isnt than who he is. And who he is included being a monster defender in his 3rd season.

[Ambrose]

Luka might drop off my ballot continuing to be this awful.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

is it crazy for me to say SGA has been the best player?

[Texas Chuck]

is it crazy for me to say SGA has been the best player?

in this series? Obviously.

In the playoffs? Maybe?

He's been really good.

[Colbinii]

is it crazy for me to say SGA has been the best player?

No, why would saying a Top 3 player in the RS and also a Top 3 player in the PS to be the best?

Is it crazy to say the sky can be blue?

[Doctor MJ]

is it crazy for me to say SGA has been the best player?

Nope.

[rk2023]

It would take some point shaving scandal at this point in time to not have Luka and Shai in my T5 for player of the year.

[OhayoKD]

Shai is pretty clearly my top 1 right now, but Jokic, Edwards, Luka, and everyone else could make up ground with SGA eliminated

[Special_Puppy]

Shai is pretty clearly my top 1 right now, but Jokic, Edwards, Luka, and everyone else could make up ground with SGA eliminated

Honestly curious what the argument for SGA over Jokic is? Did you have SGA as your regular season MVP as well or do you think he has outplayed Jokic these playoffs?

[OhayoKD]

Shai is pretty clearly my top 1 right now, but Jokic, Edwards, Luka, and everyone else could make up ground with SGA eliminated

Honestly curious what the argument for SGA over Jokic is? Did you have SGA as your regular season MVP as well or do you think he has outplayed Jokic these playoffs?

has a case as the best rs player and has been the best in the playoffs

[Special_Puppy]

Shai is pretty clearly my top 1 right now, but Jokic, Edwards, Luka, and everyone else could make up ground with SGA eliminated

Honestly curious what the argument for SGA over Jokic is? Did you have SGA as your regular season MVP as well or do you think he has outplayed Jokic these playoffs?

has a case as the best rs player and has been the best in the playoffs

Why do you think he's been the best in the playoffs? Edwards+Jokic ahead of him in EPM+EPM WAR+BPM+VORP at the moment. Like that's not everything, but you'd expect SGA to ahead of those two in something if he's been the best player so far unless you are just using your eye test+traditional stats.

[Dutchball97]

The 2 game 7s coming up will have really big implications for my ballot. With SGA eliminated the #1 spot is Jokic' to lose but if he gets eliminated as well it suddenly turns into a free for all.

While Jokic, SGA and probably Luka now he made it to the WCF are almost impossible to drop off my ballot the final 2 spots are going to be very difficult to determine between Tatum, Brunson and Ant for me. For both Brunson and Ant, winning or losing tomorrow could mean the difference between making the ballot or being the unlucky 6th guy just missing out.

On another note, I think my ROY ballot is set now after game 6 of OKC - Dallas with Wemby at 1, Chet at 2 and Lively securing the 3rd spot.

[The-Power]

With OKC out, I'm fairly comfortable with SGA at #2 for POY and Chet as the #2 for ROY.

It's not impossible for someone to take the 2nd spot from SGA but it's not very likely. I had him as my #2 for the RS and he has played roughly up to that level during the playoffs. He's still trailing Jokic, though.

Chet, meanwhile, has done an admirable job as a first-year player in the playoffs but has not given me any reason to put him ahead of Victor.

On a related note, I am inclined to move Lively to my 3rd spot ahead of Miller. He was already close in the RS for me (and it was easy to already argue for him ahead) and his defensive impact translated seamlessly to the playoffs with Dallas playing much better with him on the court and opponents being afraid to challenge him at the rim. That matters to me.

I'll leave it at this for now. The rest I'll think more deeply about when the playoffs are over.

[Texas Chuck]

With OKC out, I'm fairly comfortable with SGA at #2 for POY
It's not impossible for someone to take the 2nd spot from SGA but it's not very likely. I had him as my #2 for the RS and he has played roughly up to that level during the playoffs.

Yeah I guess if one of the other top 5ish guys still remaining goes absolutely HAM the last two rounds in leading their team to a title, maybe he could pass SGA? But SGA was fabulous against Dallas on the heels of an incredible season. I also had him at 2, and I can't think of any reasons atm to move him down. Unfortunately he now has no chance for me to pass Jokic since he's out.

Great year.