Rank as defenders right now: Davis, Gobert, Wembanyama, Draymond

[letskissbro]

Title.

[Colbinii]

For this season: Gobert > Davis > Bam > Wemby > Draymond

I am interested to see how the post-season plays out.

Gobert has the best defensive cast around him in his career and is the most mobile he has been on the perimeter, which makes me like his chances at putting together an ATG playoff run on the defensive side of the ball.

One of AD/Draymond will be playing in one Play-IN game before their season ends while Bam could end up in a similar situation.

We will need to wait until next year for Wemby to be playing meaningful basketball, but I fully expect him to be in the running with these other 4 as the best defensive players in the NBA.

[SpreeS]

Jokic with 40pts against Gobert in the most important RS game… He can’t defend perimeter in PO and he can’t defend the best bigs. Overall his defence is elite in RS, but in PO he is torched by every elite player.

I don’t know what is Green doing on this list. He is old and past his prime and nowhere close to the best defensive bigs.

[Colbinii]

Jokic with 40pts against Gobert in the most important RS game…

Did you watch the game? I ask because a lot of the game, the Nuggets simply passed up opportunities at the rim and were forced into very late shots or shot clock violations because of Goberts rim deterrence.

The primary defenders of Jokic were Kyle Anderson and Naz Reid.

But hey, Anthony Davis couldn't guard Jokic last year so he must be a bad defensive player as well.

He can’t defend perimeter in PO

That isn't true. He can't guard the perimeter when there are no other rim protectors. But a player like Gobert doesn't need to defend the perimeter every possession to still be an elite defensive player and have elite defensive impact.

Anthony Davis didn't defend the perimeter in the post-season last year yet he was widely seen as the best defensive player last post-season.

For the record, Bam couldn't guard Jokic. Green couldn't guard Jokic. Anthony Davis couldn't guard Jokic.

So who is the best defender if NONE OF THEM CAN GUARD JOKIC? Who is it?

and he can’t defend the best bigs.

Yes he can. It's just Gobert is an All-Time great rim deterrent, so you would prefer the best rim deterrent of the generation to constantly be near the rim, which is why the Timberwolves placed Gobert on Aaron Gordon for most of the game.

Again, the Lakers did this last year with Anthony Davis, who got absolutely torched by Jokic. The Lakers then moved AD to Gordon and had more success.

Overall his defence is elite in RS, but in PO he is torched by every elite player.

That isn't true. Rudy has never had a strong defensive cast around him in the post-season. He finally has a cast that stands up to the Warriors/Lakers which AD/Draymond have had.

I don’t know what is Green doing on this list. He is old and past his prime and nowhere close to the best defensive bigs.

He was the best defensive player in 2022--just 2 years ago.

Can you point to a specific aspect of his game which has dropped off?

[homecourtloss]

Good question. Playoffs are a different animal, and I put more weight in them, which elevates someone like AD who is good in the RS but elevates himself in the post season.

Estimated Defensive Plus-Minus (combo of box, lineup, and tracking data

Wemby, +3.3, 99th percentile
Draymond, +2.8, 98th percentile
Gobert, +2.2, 94th percentile
AD, +1.9, 93rd percentile

Defensive ON-OFF

Wemby, +7.1 (has some tank-worthy defensive teammates, but the defensive impact is happening)
Draymond, +5.3 (Draymond things)
AD, +.5 (for the majority of the season, the Lakers actually had a lower DRtg with AD off court. This is surprising since the Lakers have very few plus defenders)
Gobert, +.3 (not too surprising since there are some good defenders on Minnesota)

DFG% allowed at the rim

Gobert, 51.8% on 7.4 FGA defended per game
Wemby, 52.5% on 7.9 FGA defended per game
AD, 54.1% on 7.3 FGA defended per game
Draymond, 60.6% on 3.7 FGA defended per game (his worst rim protecting season)

Defending shots overall—FG% allowed, difference compared to how opponents shoot vs. everyone else

Draymond, 42.8%, -6.7%, 14.2 FGA defended per game
Gobert, 43.4%, -6.2%, 18.9 FGA defended per game
Wemby, 45.6%, -4.9%, 16.7 FGA defended per game
AD, 47.4%, -2.4%, 18.9 FGA defended per game

Defending on three pointers—FG% allowed, difference compared to how opponents shoot vs. everyone else

Draymond, 31.4% (5th best in the NBA), -4.5%, 5.1 three pointers defended per game
Gobert, 33.8%, -2.2%, 3.8 three pointers defended per game
Wemby, 35.1%, -1.7%, 4.1 three pointers per game
AD, 41.4%, +5.0, 5.3 three pointers defended per game

Post defense—Points per possession (PPP) allowed; so few possessions though there are other possessions in which the player actually defends in the post for which we don’t have data since they didn’t make a possession ending play

AD, .61 on .8 possessions
Gobert, .75 on .5 possessions
Draymond, .84 on 1.0 possessions
Wemby, 1.0 on .8 possessions

I don’t know what is Green doing on this list. He is old and past his prime and nowhere close to the best defensive bigs.

He is old and past his prime, but there he is again among the very best defenders. He simply has one of the highest BBall IQs ever and quarterbacks the defense.

[parsnips33]

Not the stats getting in the way of good old fashioned Draymond hate again

Agree with Colb that Bam should definitely be in this conversation

[Colbinii]

Not the stats getting in the way of good old fashioned Draymond hate again

Agree with Colb that Bam should definitely be in this conversation

Who is more emotional: Draymond Green on the court or his haters off the court?

[The Master]

For this season: Gobert > Davis > Bam > Wemby > Draymond

Davis is a nice example of how resume-oriented is evaluation of defense, I don't think there's a data that would support an idea of him being any better than 'good/very good' defensively this season (besides post defense, it seems).

Estimated Defensive Plus-Minus (combo of box, lineup, and tracking data
AD, +1.9, 93rd percentile
Defensive ON-OFF
AD, +.5 (for the majority of the season, the Lakers actually had a lower DRtg with AD off court. This is surprising since the Lakers have very few plus defenders)
DFG% allowed at the rim
AD, 54.1% on 7.3 FGA defended per game
Defending shots overall—FG% allowed, difference compared to how oppoents shoot vs. everyone else
AD, 47.4%, -2.4%, 18.9 FGA defended per game
Defending on three pointers—FG% allowed, difference compared to how oppoents shoot vs. everyone else
AD, 41.4%, +5.0, 5.3 three pointers defended per game
Post defense—Points per possession (PPP) allowed; so few possessions though there are other possessions in which the player actually defends in the post for which we don’t have data since they didn’t make a possession ending play
AD, .61 on .8 possessions

In the playoffs, that's another story with his motor on and his versatility. In RS? He'll be in All-NBA / DPOTY convo due to resume / several players missing games played threshold.

RS only?

Gobert
Bam, Wemby
Davis
Green (he missed milion games)

Next year?

Wemby by a significant margin

[kcktiny]

I don’t know what is Green doing on this list. He is old and past his prime and nowhere close to the best defensive bigs.

Oh, I don't know, maybe because the individual shot defense data at stats.nba.com shows that of the 142 players in the league that have faced 700+ FGAs on defense this season, Draymond Green has the best/lowest FG% differential allowed at -6.7%, and the 2nd lowest FG% allowed at just 42.8%.

[rk2023]

Good question. Playoffs are a different animal, and I put more weight in them, which elevates someone like AD who is good in the RS but elevates himself in the post season.

Estimated Defensive Plus-Minus (combo of box, lineup, and tracking data

Wemby, +3.3, 99th percentile
Draymond, +2.8, 98th percentile
Gobert, +2.2, 94th percentile
AD, +1.9, 93rd percentile

Defensive ON-OFF

Wemby, +7.1 (has some tank-worthy defensive teammates, but the defensive impact is happening)
Draymond, +5.3 (Draymond things)
AD, +.5 (for the majority of the season, the Lakers actually had a lower DRtg with AD off court. This is surprising since the Lakers have very few plus defenders)
Gobert, +.3 (not too surprising since there are some good defenders on Minnesota)

DFG% allowed at the rim

Gobert, 51.8% on 7.4 FGA defended per game
Wemby, 52.5% on 7.9 FGA defended per game
AD, 54.1% on 7.3 FGA defended per game
Draymond, 60.6% on 3.7 FGA defended per game (his worst rim protecting season)

Defending shots overall—FG% allowed, difference compared to how oppoents shoot vs. everyone else

Draymond, 42.8%, -6.7%, 14.2 FGA defended per game
Gobert, 43.4%, -6.2%, 18.9 FGA defended per game
Wemby, 45.6%, -4.9%, 16.7 FGA defended per game
AD, 47.4%, -2.4%, 18.9 FGA defended per game

Defending on three pointers—FG% allowed, difference compared to how oppoents shoot vs. everyone else

Draymond, 31.4% (5th best in the NBA), -4.5%, 5.1 three pointers defended per game
Gobert, 33.8%, -2.2%, 3.8 three pointers defended per game
Wemby, 35.1%, -1.7%, 4.1 three pointers per game
AD, 41.4%, +5.0, 5.3 three pointers defended per game

Post defense—Points per possession (PPP) allowed; so few possessions though there are other possessions in which the player actually defends in the post for which we don’t have data since they didn’t make a possession ending play

AD, .61 on .8 possessions
Gobert, .75 on .5 possessions
Draymond, .84 on 1.0 possessions
Wemby, 1.0 on .8 possessions

I don’t know what is Green doing on this list. He is old and past his prime and nowhere close to the best defensive bigs.

He is old and past his prime, but there he is again among the very best defenders. He simply has one of the highest BBall IQs ever and quarterbacks the defense.

AD defensive data likely is / has been being punted by turnstiles like Prince & AR - with the puppet master himself (HAMself) being the ones to stagger the Lakers’ defensive impact. I think LeBron has been better than Davis this year, but Davis more indispensable out of design - the design being how **** awful LA’s team defense is without AD. This explains the WOWY : DRTG in games Davis has sat rather well imo.

[rk2023]

I don’t know what is Green doing on this list. He is old and past his prime and nowhere close to the best defensive bigs.

Oh, I don't know, maybe because the individual shot defense data at stats.nba.com shows that of the 142 players in the league that have faced 700+ FGAs on defense this season, Draymond Green has the best/lowest FG% differential allowed at -6.7%, and the 2nd lowest FG% allowed at just 42.8%.

Raw dFG% without range allocation in the year of 2024, oh brother

[rk2023]

In this RS:

Gobert
Wembanyama
Davis

Green

Playoff series - where they’re in a decent situation:

Green/Davis

Gobert

Wembanyama (keep in mind he’s only 20!)

[homecourtloss]

Not the stats getting in the way of good old fashioned Draymond hate again

Agree with Colb that Bam should definitely be in this conversation

It’s weird to see so many Golden State Warriors fans do this, but then again, they might just be Steph Curry fans and are trying to prop himupup by bringing down Draymond.

In any case, Bam Adebayo is a good one. Another one is Isaiah Hartenstein who has had an amazing defense season. Finally, it’s an absolute shame about the injuries that Jonathan Isaac has had because when he is on court, he is just an amazing defender and incredible impact player.

[rk2023]

Not the stats getting in the way of good old fashioned Draymond hate again

Agree with Colb that Bam should definitely be in this conversation

It’s weird to see so many Golden State Warriors fans do this, but then again, they might just be Steph Curry fans and are trying to prop himupup by bringing down Draymond.

In any case, Bam Adebayo is a good one. Another one is Isaiah Hartenstein who has had an amazing defense season. Finally, it’s an absolute shame about the injuries that Jonathan Isaac has had because when he is on court, he is just an amazing defender and incredible impact player.

Some under the radar (but next tier) guys on defense I’d have are Chet and Jarrett Allen.

[parsnips33]

Not the stats getting in the way of good old fashioned Draymond hate again

Agree with Colb that Bam should definitely be in this conversation

It’s weird to see so many Golden State Warriors fans do this, but then again, they might just be Steph Curry fans and are trying to prop himupup by bringing down Draymond.

In any case, Bam Adebayo is a good one. Another one is Isaiah Hartenstein who has had an amazing defense season. Finally, it’s an absolute shame about the injuries that Jonathan Isaac has had because when he is on court, he is just an amazing defender and incredible impact player.

Mostly watch Warriors games at this point so hard for me to weigh in on too many other guys, but I've been super impressed anytime I've watched Hartenstein. Not just on defense either, he's got nice touch and instincts

[The Master]

AD defensive data likely is / has been being punted by turnstiles like Prince & AR - with the puppet master himself (HAMself) being the ones to stagger the Lakers’ defensive impact. I think LeBron has been better than Davis this year, but Davis more indispensable out of design - the design being how **** awful LA’s team defense is without AD. This explains the WOWY : DRTG in games Davis has sat rather well imo.

He played under the same coach/on similar roster a year ago, even in the first part of last season pre-deadline on this messy team with Westbrook his impact and matchup numbers were much better than this season (-4 on/off on D, 45 DFG%).

AD is probably a better defender than these pure stats suggest (I'd say good/very good), and he could've been better under different circumstances - but at the same time it's difficult to give him benefit of a doubt considering:

1) his defensive effort post-title in RS has been really questionable overall,
2) Warriors are awful defensively without Dray, Heat are coasting the whole regular season and Spurs have the worst defensive team without Wemby - and yet we see Green/Bam/Wemby looking great in plenty of impact data.