The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Playoffs & Off-Season Thread -(NO PERSONAL ATTACKS & BAITING)

[PistolPeteJR]

Any chance we get LeExpendables? I don't think people understand how much demand there is among NBA fandom to see the old man trio team up for their final stretch

If they stayed healthy, that sort of thing could be fun.

I think the most hilarious thing, which will never happen of course, would be Lebron and KD with Steph on the Warriors xD

LeBron isn't leaving unless it's one last, final hurrah with Cleveland to close out his career (and that would only happen if he's convinced they're competitive and the Lakers aren't).

[tsherkin]

Any chance we get LeExpendables? I don't think people understand how much demand there is among NBA fandom to see the old man trio team up for their final stretch

If they stayed healthy, that sort of thing could be fun.

I think the most hilarious thing, which will never happen of course, would be Lebron and KD with Steph on the Warriors xD

LeBron isn't leaving unless it's one last, final hurrah with Cleveland to close out his career (and that would only happen if he's convinced they're competitive and the Lakers aren't).

You're probably quite correct.

[AEnigma]

To be honest just makes me appreciate what Jokic is doing even more. The 2024 Lakers weren’t great by SRS but I’ll be damned if they weren’t one of the toughest opponents to go out in the first round ever. To go 8-1 against them over 2 seasons is a huge feather in his cap.

This series has me even more impressed by the Nuggets and less impressed by Jokic, but maybe that will change against the Wolves.

I honestly had the opposite impression?
Jokic's average prior EPM in this series was +6.2 and his BPM is the highest of the playoffs so far.

I really do not care about BPM. His BPM in general is the highest all-time — and it was most recently changed as response to Westbrook performing inordinately well in it. Box score accumulation is not how I judge players, and that is essentially what those basketball-reference metrics measure.

EPM (and LEBRON and DARKO) is more comprehensive and accordingly something I am more willing to respect as an indicator, but to whatever extent we want to say that EPM value reflects well on Jokic generally, I do not think it reflects all too well comparatively.

Read on Twitter

Lebron is the GOAT, and I think the degree of separation becomes more obvious with every year, but I would not say at age 39 he should be matching a top five peak, or even a top ten peak. I mean, if people want to say that, sure, go nuts, but the interpretation that corresponds better to my eyes and assessment of their games is that Jokic is not really performing at any sort of overall unprecedented level and that his offensive game, while excellent, is not individually producing enough separation to make up for his still extremely exploitable defensive weaknesses.

Again, I am lower than most on Shaq — for many of the same reasons defensively — but Jokic is not bending defences the way Shaq did. We can say that is a product of an era where defences are frequently over-taxed, but then Jokic should be producing more potent results than he has been. In fact, he needs to do so if we are going to argue his offensive production makes up for the cavernous defensive advantage held by Hakeem and Wilt and Duncan (and to a substantial extent also Kareem).

[Djoker]

The full stats over the 9 games:

Lebron: 27.8/8.0/9.3 on 62.2 %TS with 3.1 tov in 41.7 mpg
Jokic: 28.0/15.4/10.7 on 63.7 %TS with 3.4 tov in 41.1 mpg

[Colbinii]

The full stats over the 9 games:

Lebron: 27.8/8.0/9.3 on 62.2 %TS with 3.1 tov in 41.7 mpg
Jokic: 28.0/15.4/10.7 on 63.7 %TS with 3.4 tov in 41.1 mpg

Damn impressive for LeBron.

Does this mean his Prime is from 2007-2024? Spanning 18 years of MVP-level play with high ends of GOAT peak seasons/games/series?

[Heej]

Yea I'm not sure how people can delude themselves into thinking Jokic has the GOAT peak when he's not even massively outplaying an over the hill LeBron. It is impressive how impervious he is to having a bad box score game tho with all the Rondo assists he accumulates running DHOs for guys and the rebounding dominance.

Just can't see the points he gives up repeatedly in PnR coverage, or the way the Lakers' hard doubles in the post nuked his post game from a PPP basis and think this is what a GOAT peak looks like. Hard to imagine 2017 LeBron not winning this series in place of 2024 Bron, and that's with an overall worse roster and coaching than the Nuggets.

Should be interesting to see how this goes next year if the Lakers are able to upgrade at the Rui spot.

[Ian Scuffling]

The full stats over the 9 games:

Lebron: 27.8/8.0/9.3 on 62.2 %TS with 3.1 tov in 41.7 mpg
Jokic: 28.0/15.4/10.7 on 63.7 %TS with 3.4 tov in 41.1 mpg

Damn. At age 38 with a torn tendon in his foot and at age 39. If any troll/hater has a road to damascus moment in regards to their illogical hatred of James, they're going to be pretty pissed they spent these years being idiots, instead of appreciating.

[Colbinii]

I'm shocked D'lo wasn't in the running for Teammate of the Year this year.

[Special_Puppy]

Delete

[Special_Puppy]

Delete

[Special_Puppy]

I really do not care about BPM. His BPM in general is the highest all-time — and it was most recently changed as response to Westbrook performing inordinately well in it. Box score accumulation is not how I judge players, and that is essentially what those basketball-reference metrics measure.

EPM (and LEBRON and DARKO) is more comprehensive and accordingly something I am more willing to respect as an indicator, but to whatever extent we want to say that EPM value reflects well on Jokic generally, I do not think it reflects all too well comparatively.

Read on Twitter

Lebron is the GOAT, and I think the degree of separation becomes more obvious with every year, but I would not say at age 39 he should be matching a top five peak, or even a top ten peak. I mean, if people want to say that, sure, go nuts, but the interpretation that corresponds better to my eyes and assessment of their games is that Jokic is not really performing at any sort of overall unprecedented level and that his offensive game, while excellent, is not individually producing enough separation to make up for his still extremely exploitable defensive weaknesses.

Again, I am lower than most on Shaq — for many of the same reasons defensively — but Jokic is not bending defences the way Shaq did. We can say that is a product of an era where defences are frequently over-taxed, but then Jokic should be producing more potent results than he has been. In fact, he needs to do so if we are going to argue his offensive production makes up for the cavernous defensive advantage held by Hakeem and Wilt and Duncan (and to a substantial extent also Kareem).

For what it’s worth LeBron’s average prior EPM in the 2013 finals was +4.7 so by that measure 38-39 year old Lebron did even create much separation with *peak* LeBron. Don’t really have a strong opinion on where Jokic’s peak and career stacks up to pre-2015 players (where we have less data for).I do think Jokic's peak is a clear tier down from LeBron and Jordan, but I don't really see any clear reason why it can't be a top 10 peak especially depending on how you define peak (best 4-year span, 1-year span, 7-year span?) Like are we really saying that Jokic's current 4-year stretch is clearly behind Bird/Magic/Curry's best 4-year stretch?

[Djoker]

The full stats over the 9 games:

Lebron: 27.8/8.0/9.3 on 62.2 %TS with 3.1 tov in 41.7 mpg
Jokic: 28.0/15.4/10.7 on 63.7 %TS with 3.4 tov in 41.1 mpg

Damn impressive for LeBron.

Does this mean his Prime is from 2007-2024? Spanning 18 years of MVP-level play with high ends of GOAT peak seasons/games/series?

Yea the stats look kind of close.

Not as impressive when you realize he won one game in the two series combined and that was down 0-3. Or that his best games came too late in those series too.

Current Lebron is not close to an MVP-level player. But still All-NBA caliber player and in conversation for top 10 is very impressive at his age.

[PistolPeteJR]

The full stats over the 9 games:

Lebron: 27.8/8.0/9.3 on 62.2 %TS with 3.1 tov in 41.7 mpg
Jokic: 28.0/15.4/10.7 on 63.7 %TS with 3.4 tov in 41.1 mpg

Damn impressive for LeBron.

Does this mean his Prime is from 2007-2024? Spanning 18 years of MVP-level play with high ends of GOAT peak seasons/games/series?

Yea the stats look kind of close.

Not as impressive when you realize he won one game in the two series combined and that was down 0-3. Or that his best games came too late in those series too.

Current Lebron is not close to an MVP-level player. But still All-NBA caliber player and in conversation for top 10 is very impressive at his age.

It is absolutely as impressive for multiple reasons:

1) 38-39yo in years 20-21.

2) Worse supporting cast overall sans AD and coach.

3) Had a torn tendon last year and AD was injured in their first series too (ignoring the injury in Game 5 this year).

4) Better defense, which isn't visible on the boxscore.

[AEnigma]

I really do not care about BPM. His BPM in general is the highest all-time — and it was most recently changed as response to Westbrook performing inordinately well in it. Box score accumulation is not how I judge players, and that is essentially what those basketball-reference metrics measure.

EPM (and LEBRON and DARKO) is more comprehensive and accordingly something I am more willing to respect as an indicator, but to whatever extent we want to say that EPM value reflects well on Jokic generally, I do not think it reflects all too well comparatively.

Read on Twitter

Lebron is the GOAT, and I think the degree of separation becomes more obvious with every year, but I would not say at age 39 he should be matching a top five peak, or even a top ten peak. I mean, if people want to say that, sure, go nuts, but the interpretation that corresponds better to my eyes and assessment of their games is that Jokic is not really performing at any sort of overall unprecedented level and that his offensive game, while excellent, is not individually producing enough separation to make up for his still extremely exploitable defensive weaknesses.

Again, I am lower than most on Shaq — for many of the same reasons defensively — but Jokic is not bending defences the way Shaq did. We can say that is a product of an era where defences are frequently over-taxed, but then Jokic should be producing more potent results than he has been. In fact, he needs to do so if we are going to argue his offensive production makes up for the cavernous defensive advantage held by Hakeem and Wilt and Duncan (and to a substantial extent also Kareem).

For what it’s worth LeBron’s average prior EPM in the 2013 finals was +4.7 so by that measure 38-39 year old Lebron did even create much separation with *peak* LeBron.

Which is why the eye test is useful to affirm that yes, comparing production a decade removed in a notably different offensive environment will result in unreflective skews. 25/11/7 on 53% efficiency may not explode off the page, or even be one of Lebron’s better series; however, when leading a +7 rOrtg in a series where no one else can crack 20 points a game against a 7 SRS, -4 rDrtg opponent that strangled the previous three offences it faced, there is no question of whether anyone else could match him.

Don’t really have a strong opinion on where Jokic’s peak and career stacks up to pre-2015 players (where we have less data for).I do think Jokic's peak is a clear tier down from LeBron and Jordan, but I don't really see any clear reason why it can't be a top 10 peak especially depending on how you define peak (best 4-year span, 1-year span, 7-year span?) Like are we really saying that Jokic's current 4-year stretch is clearly behind Bird/Magic/Curry's best 4-year stretch?

I would have all three as fringe top ten (with Bird especially buoyed by era advantages I feel would quickly vanish today), so sure, but I was looking more at the all-time bigs anchoring defences while also often at least having a strong argument as their team’s best source of offence. And for what it is worth, I think there is a reasonable enough argument that those three can produce similarly strong offences without creating as many inherent defensive weaknesses.

[Ian Scuffling]

The full stats over the 9 games:

Lebron: 27.8/8.0/9.3 on 62.2 %TS with 3.1 tov in 41.7 mpg
Jokic: 28.0/15.4/10.7 on 63.7 %TS with 3.4 tov in 41.1 mpg

Damn impressive for LeBron.

Does this mean his Prime is from 2007-2024? Spanning 18 years of MVP-level play with high ends of GOAT peak seasons/games/series?

Yea the stats look kind of close.

Not as impressive when you realize he won one game in the two series combined and that was down 0-3. Or that his best games came too late in those series too.

Current Lebron is not close to an MVP-level player. But still All-NBA caliber player and in conversation for top 10 is very impressive at his age.

"is very impressive" is selling it very short. More like "unheard of", "preposterous", "unbelievable", "unprecedented" He's put that bar so high, it's unlikely to ever be reached. Much like the 40k+ p, 11K+ a & 11K+ r. When he breaks records, he destroys them.

[VanWest82]

This is an only response.

You literally called yourself a hater a few minutes ago, it oozes in most of your posts, and we’re the haters LOL?

Yup. At least I admit what I am, and I'm not afraid to give Lebron credit either which I did in multiple posts right beside this one that you decided not to quote or AND1. Hardly a surprise.

1. Seriously? You're checking to see what I quote or and-1 of yours? Do you realize how pathetic this sounds, not to mention how it comes across as entitled?

Everyone is automatically notified when quoted or AND1'd, but honestly I wouldn't need to check because you've never AND1'd a single post of mine in your entire time on RealGM. I mentioned that to support the point that you only ever engage me in a negative manner either for the purposes of insulting me or back seat moderating. It has been like this with you right from the start.

2. We don't insult you.

You insult me quite often, actually. You just called me "Vanleast" a few pages back.

3. Colbinii spoke very clearly as to the mention of your daughter. He didn't insult you, her, your family, or anyone. For you to continue to harp on this shows the closedmindedness and agenda-driven bias you continue to possess and exhibit. If you still disagree, feel free to report the post and have what in your mind should be an unbiased, third-party look at it.

A number of posters here seemed to agree that it was inappropriate to bring family into an adversarial exchange regardless of intention or context. I appreciate Colbinii at least clarified there was no ill intent. It's been dealt with.

4. You saying it's personal doesn't make it true. No one ever baited you. It's the other way around, you know it, and I'm not going to try and convince you. We're very happy here, you clearly aren't, so leave.

Further to point 1., it's clearly personal for you. A while back I asked that you stop quoting me and instead add me to ignore as it was already clear at that point that you were essentially following me around in topics that involved Lebron and chastizing me on a personal level with name calling, you didn't like my tone, etc. You've chosen to ignore my request and continue baiting me. You claim it's the other way around. I do not quote you. I do not reference you in discussions with other posters. I have no interaction with you other than to respond directly to your attempts to backseat moderate me. I do not tell you to leave the site. Please stop.

[PistolPeteJR]

This is an only response.

Yup. At least I admit what I am, and I'm not afraid to give Lebron credit either which I did in multiple posts right beside this one that you decided not to quote or AND1. Hardly a surprise.

1. Seriously? You're checking to see what I quote or and-1 of yours? Do you realize how pathetic this sounds, not to mention how it comes across as entitled?

Everyone is automatically notified when quoted or AND1'd, but honestly I wouldn't need to check because you've never AND1'd a single post of mine in your entire time on RealGM. I mentioned that to support the point that you only ever engage me in a negative manner either for the purposes of insulting me or back seat moderating. It has been like this with you right from the start.

2. We don't insult you.

You insult me quite often, actually. You just called me "Vanleast" a few pages back.

3. Colbinii spoke very clearly as to the mention of your daughter. He didn't insult you, her, your family, or anyone. For you to continue to harp on this shows the closedmindedness and agenda-driven bias you continue to possess and exhibit. If you still disagree, feel free to report the post and have what in your mind should be an unbiased, third-party look at it.

A number of posters here seemed to agree that it was inappropriate to bring family into an adversarial exchange regardless of intention or context. I appreciate Colbinii at least clarified there was no ill intent. It's been dealt with.

4. You saying it's personal doesn't make it true. No one ever baited you. It's the other way around, you know it, and I'm not going to try and convince you. We're very happy here, you clearly aren't, so leave.

Further to point 1., it's clearly personal for you. A while back I asked that you stop quoting me and instead add me to ignore as it was already clear at that point that you were essentially following me around in topics that involved Lebron and chastizing me on a personal level with name calling, you didn't like my tone, etc. You've chosen to ignore my request and continue baiting me. You claim it's the other way around. I do not quote you. I do not reference you in discussions with other posters. I have no interaction with you other than to respond directly to your attempts to backseat moderate me. I do not tell you to leave the site. Please stop.

1. Whether you actually go manually count or keep track of if and when I’ve and-1’d you in the past, what’s the difference? Who keeps tabs? Move on dude.

2. I don’t think so, but yeah, earlier, “VanLeast” was uttered. I apologize.

3. Great.

4. Believe me, no one is “following you around in topics that involve LeBron”. Don’t flatter yourself. I respond as I desire, in threads I frequent. I’m responding to you here now. If you don’t like it when your agenda-driven biases and your clear bait posts, which have been highlighted by numerous people here, including mods, in the last 24 hours and beyond, are responded to, that’s your problem, not mine.

[tsherkin]

How's about we go back to talking about Lebron, yeah?

[NbaAllDay]

This is an only response.

Yup. At least I admit what I am, and I'm not afraid to give Lebron credit either which I did in multiple posts right beside this one that you decided not to quote or AND1. Hardly a surprise.

1. Seriously? You're checking to see what I quote or and-1 of yours? Do you realize how pathetic this sounds, not to mention how it comes across as entitled?

Everyone is automatically notified when quoted or AND1'd, but honestly I wouldn't need to check because you've never AND1'd a single post of mine in your entire time on RealGM. I mentioned that to support the point that you only ever engage me in a negative manner either for the purposes of insulting me or back seat moderating. It has been like this with you right from the start.

2. We don't insult you.

You insult me quite often, actually. You just called me "Vanleast" a few pages back.

3. Colbinii spoke very clearly as to the mention of your daughter. He didn't insult you, her, your family, or anyone. For you to continue to harp on this shows the closedmindedness and agenda-driven bias you continue to possess and exhibit. If you still disagree, feel free to report the post and have what in your mind should be an unbiased, third-party look at it.

A number of posters here seemed to agree that it was inappropriate to bring family into an adversarial exchange regardless of intention or context. I appreciate Colbinii at least clarified there was no ill intent. It's been dealt with.

4. You saying it's personal doesn't make it true. No one ever baited you. It's the other way around, you know it, and I'm not going to try and convince you. We're very happy here, you clearly aren't, so leave.

Further to point 1., it's clearly personal for you. A while back I asked that you stop quoting me and instead add me to ignore as it was already clear at that point that you were essentially following me around in topics that involved Lebron and chastizing me on a personal level with name calling, you didn't like my tone, etc. You've chosen to ignore my request and continue baiting me. You claim it's the other way around. I do not quote you. I do not reference you in discussions with other posters. I have no interaction with you other than to respond directly to your attempts to backseat moderate me. I do not tell you to leave the site. Please stop.

Something to consider, at least from my perspective, being a 'hater' of a player immediately tells me your emotional investment will outweighs anything logically and therefore most rational discussion will fall apart with said hater.

I have never hated a player and I never will. It's a toxic mindset and does not put you in a framework to have constructive conversations.

Saying nice things about someone you hate will never be seen as genuine because your reasoning behind it will always have a caveat.

The biggest issue I have with a lot of posters on this board is they have a specific disdain for x player (LeBron is an popular choice) and warp their entire discussion around them, having very different standards depending on how they feel about a player.

We all do this to an extend, but this thread does it a lot less than the GB and most people will not tolerate a hater in here (even if you try to say something positive) because they are over that kind of mindset.

[Cavsfansince84]

LeBron isn't leaving unless it's one last, final hurrah with Cleveland to close out his career (and that would only happen if he's convinced they're competitive and the Lakers aren't).

I'm actually thinking its at least 50/50 he leaves now. I didn't before the playoffs but I think he's really tired of how terrible the Laker f/o has been since 2020. They really just threw away a pretty good roster after that year and you can't count on AD to be healthy at all. We've already heard he plans to become a fa and the Knicks have a decent roster and could really use another playmaker without him having to do heavy lifting. I have a feeling he's open to going to about 4-5 teams if they want him.