The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Playoffs & Off-Season Thread -(NO PERSONAL ATTACKS & BAITING)

[Heej]

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Not sure if this tweet got posted in here.

Steph is not leaving GSW and I really doubt LeBron would have any interest in signing there considering they're the biggest rivals of his career.

Phoenix can't sign free agents and LeBron isn't taking a paycut either.

So that means the only possibility is Durant to the Lakers. Would certainly be a very interesting development, wonder how it would play out.

Literally the only way I could see this playing out is KD taking the Rui spot. Suns could use a PG so a DLo Rui and some assets trade wouldn't be tooo insane. The only fanbase I could see being even more ungrateful and delusional about LeBron than Lakers fans are the odious low IQ Warriors fans. The Servant owes LeKing for sneaking 2 rings and FMVPs from him anyway.

[AEnigma]

To me, using the '94 Bulls in the without would be a little bit like using the '15 Miami Heat outcome in LeBron's without sample: they still had Bosh, Wade, Chalmers, Chris Andersen, Udonis Haslem, Michael Beasley, Norris Cole [for half the year], plus a couple other scant-minute scrubs from '14; same coach, too. It's as much the "same team minus LeBron" as the the '94 Bulls were "the '93 Bulls minus Jordan". So why don't we just add it to Bron's without sample?
Because he wasn't a part of that organization at all that year; just like Jordan wasn't for the '94 Bulls.

And if ONLY using WOWY data gleaned from the years within the span where Jordan was actually part of the organization [at all], the Bulls without Jordan were 35-37 [from '88-'98] (.486 win%), vs .736 win% with him; and the net rating swing falls somewhere closer to +7.

I do not think 2015 is rarely cited because of organisational absence. Generally people are going to notice when teams collapse upon an exit. 2011/19 are the comically glaring ones for Lebron, but we see it with Garnett and the 2008 Timberwolves, Durant and the 2017 Thunder, Moses and the 1983 Rockets, Russell and the 1970 Celtics (to be fair, they also lost a championship coach ), etc. And it is absolutely held against players like Wilt that the 76ers did not get that much worse (although still going from a top two team to a middling contender) and the Lakers did not get that much better (although now being a more serious title contender). It certainly gets held against Lebron that the 2011 Heat only improved by 11 wins (although more like 5 SRS); that is the origin of all the portability scolding!

The Miami fell 7-SRS from 2014 to 2015, which is true even if you only look at games with both Wade and Bosh, or even if you try to incorporate how they each had been performing without Lebron over the past three years. And 7-SRS is a strong mark, such that anyone looking for reasons to deny Lebron’s impact would be happy to leave it be in favour of focusing on the 2011 failure. However, it is also not one of Lebron’s stronger signals, so other signals are more easily emphasised by those seeking to do so. It threads a needle where it is too impressive to be held against him — as you highlighted, matching prime Jordan even when ignoring 1994 — but also not so impressive that anyone familiar with his signals is going to feel compelled to trumpet it, because it is still lower than his prime average.

[jalengreen]

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Not sure if this tweet got posted in here.

Steph is not leaving GSW and I really doubt LeBron would have any interest in signing there considering they're the biggest rivals of his career.

Phoenix can't sign free agents and LeBron isn't taking a paycut either.

So that means the only possibility is Durant to the Lakers. Would certainly be a very interesting development, wonder how it would play out.

Worth noting that not long after that report, LeBron tweeted this

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[lessthanjake]

I do think it would’ve been *very* strange for Jordan to have left the Bulls after 1998. Hakeem did leave the Rockets, but he left at a point where he was long-since washed, and he also just wasn’t anywhere even remotely close to the stature of Jordan. Joe Montana leaving the 49ers is actually a decent comparison in terms of player stature, but obviously a different sport and also a pretty unique circumstance (he had been out with injury for two years by the time he left, and had been replaced by one of the best ever anyways). It’d be akin to if Pete Myers had turned out to be one of the best ever and Jordan had come back in 1995 to a different team. A lot less strange a decision.

But yes, Jordan did choose narrative over basketball. He was still probably the league’s best player in his final year (won the MVP and the title), so I think it’s pretty clear he could’ve put in more years as an elite player. And he chose not to, because there was nothing to prove, he was already the near-unanimous GOAT, and he had a fairy-tale ending and it wasn’t going to be a fairy-tale ending if he just kept going until he wasn’t winning anymore (and the upheaval in the team made there be a real risk of that happening quickly). Of course, the fairy-tale ending was eventually somewhat marred by the Wizards years much later, but that’s a separate decision years later. I’m not sure I’d put 1993 in the same bucket—there was a lot more going on there than just skepticism/worry about not being able to do it again (and there was definitely less reason to have such worry, given that he was in the middle of his prime and so was most of his team). I do think the post-1998 retirement decision really mostly just comes down to “I’m already the near-unanimous GOAT, so why would I bother staying around for a rebuild rather than going out on top having had a fairy-tale ending?” And I think that that decision might not have been made if Jordan came after LeBron chronologically, just as I think there’s a good chance LeBron would already be retired if he’d come before Jordan chronologically.

No one is expecting him to stick around in 99 on those Bulls without Phil or Pippen. You aren't really getting what I said about 93 either. Grant and Pippen had already had a mini revolt in 93. MJ was burnt out along with w/e else you want to tack on. Put all of that together and I think he just decided he'd had enough. I do think he was way more mindful of his public image(which carries directly over to his marketing image) than some if not a lot of posters here seem to realize though. MJ was and still is a very shrewd business man and understood how it could be tarnished by him having a less successful season while knowing he was still young enough that he could come back later if he so desired.

I think you may be identifying real factors in the 1993 retirement, but I do think there was clearly a lot more to it than that. I think there’s a theory of things that would say that Jordan was so intense that he just had an intensity that would burn him out and make him have to keep retiring. I think it’s plausible, but there really were unrelated factors at play in 1993 (his father dying, *maybe* gambling issues, etc.), and it’s hard to really speculate much about how much any given thing came into play. Meanwhile I think the 1998 retirement was just a very logical reaction to the situation he was in (i.e. near-unanimous GOAT on a team that was going to have to rebuild).

Anyways, one thing I’ll say is that I’m not generally of the view that Jordan left a lot on the table in terms of titles. I think he did clearly leave things on the table in terms of sheer longevity. He obviously artificially took away two prime years from his career, and then some number of additional elite years if he hadn’t retired after 1998 (not sure he’d have been the best player in the league for more than maybe one more year, but he likely would’ve remained a top-tier player longer than that). But in terms of title-winning, I’m not sure he did. If he’d not left in 1993, it’s possible they win in 1994 and/or 1995, but it’s also possible that making lengthy runs in those years would’ve exhausted the team more and made them not as dominant in 1996-1998. It’s also probable that the roster doesn’t end up the same (does Grant leave, and do they get Rodman? Things probably end up differently, and maybe for the worse). And maybe it was helpful for the rest of the team’s maturity and development to play almost two seasons without Jordan, such that they were a better supporting cast in those later years because of it? Also, in the world where Jordan doesn’t retire, the games just all go completely differently, and maybe there’s career-changing injuries to major players like Jordan or Pippen. Who knows? Meanwhile, I think it would’ve been hard to win a title in 1999 (but not impossible, depending on how the offseason actually ended up turning out in that scenario), and after that I think the window is probably closed unless the team revamped abnormally well, especially as Jordan would surely have been notably declined by then. Overall, I think 6 titles is not a bad haul, and if Jordan had to do 1993 onwards over again without retiring, I don’t really think I’d put the over/under of additional titles much above 3, if at all.

[KembaWalker]

There’s a very subjective, fluid definition of baiting on this board that only allows for conversation to go in a certain, intended direction. Like obviously that post is bait but you’ll never see it get moderated the same way. Very lame given what this board is supposed to be about

Not giving a warning for this subtle backseat modding but man, I strongly disagree with this. Within this thread, you have the pro-LeBron guys thinking we are harsher on them than the anti-LeBron posters who they think are baiting or trolling. You are grossly mistaken if you think the mod team is biased to allow conversations only in a certain direction

If you think someone is baiting or attacking you, report the post and let us do our jobs.

The fact you reply to the LeBron fan with normal functioning human font and tone and to me like…this… over the same accusation kind of says it all. But this is probably the exact reply you were baiting for anyway

[Cavsfansince84]

I think you may be identifying real factors in the 1993 retirement, but I do think there was clearly a lot more to it than that. I think there’s a theory of things that would say that Jordan was so intense that he just had an intensity that would burn him out and make him have to keep retiring. I think it’s plausible, but there really were unrelated factors at play in 1993 (his father dying, *maybe* gambling issues, etc.), and it’s hard to really speculate much about how much any given thing came into play. Meanwhile I think the 1998 retirement was just a very logical reaction to the situation he was in (i.e. near-unanimous GOAT on a team that was going to have to rebuild).

Anyways, one thing I’ll say is that I’m not generally of the view that Jordan left a lot on the table in terms of titles. I think he did clearly leave things on the table in terms of sheer longevity. He obviously artificially took away two prime years from his career, and then some number of additional elite years if he hadn’t retired after 1998 (not sure he’d have been the best player in the league for more than maybe one more year, but he likely would’ve remained a top-tier player longer than that). But in terms of title-winning, I’m not sure he did. If he’d not left in 1993, it’s possible they win in 1994 and/or 1995, but it’s also possible that making lengthy runs in those years would’ve exhausted the team more and made them not as dominant in 1996-1998. It’s also probable that the roster doesn’t end up the same (does Grant leave, and do they get Rodman? Things probably end up differently, and maybe for the worse). And maybe it was helpful for the rest of the team’s maturity and development to play almost two seasons without Jordan, such that they were a better supporting cast in those later years because of it? Also, in the world where Jordan doesn’t retire, the games just all go completely differently, and maybe there’s career-changing injuries to major players like Jordan or Pippen. Who knows? Meanwhile, I think it would’ve been hard to win a title in 1999 (but not impossible, depending on how the offseason actually ended up turning out in that scenario), and after that I think the window is probably closed unless the team revamped abnormally well, especially as Jordan would surely have been notably declined by then. Overall, I think 6 titles is not a bad haul, and if Jordan had to do 1993 onwards over again without retiring, I don’t really think I’d put the over/under of additional titles much above 3, if at all.

All of that seems reasonable. I think we got a bit off track from the one comment about how much easier it is to leave teams than continue with the same one but any time MJ gets brought up in this thread its probably a recipe for disaster.

[PistolPeteJR]

I appreciate the mods’ posts here.

I acknowledged the fact that I let my emotions get the best of me, something I don’t do ever on here, when I insulted a user a number of pages ago by playing on his username, and apologized to the user.

The biggest problem I see is not that LeBron can’t be criticized (even though it seems with some users, it seems they get extra-defensive and can’t handle the fair criticisms, but they’re in the minority I’d say); the biggest problem is in the way certain users absolutely make it a point just to come in here to troll, bait, and make disingenuous arguments. Eventually, it gets exhausting and frustrating. We report, they get warnings, it doesn’t seem to matter much, or so it feels. In some cases, it does matter of course, given some get banned.

Anyway, that’s all I’ll say on the matter.

Thanks to the mods for taking these things seriously. (:

[TheGOATRises007]

LeBron and KD on the same team would be pretty fun to watch.

I actually think KD wants to leave Phoenix. I think a part of him might regret leaving GS.

[MartinToVaught]

LeBron and KD on the same team would be pretty fun to watch.

KD's ego might derail it. He couldn't handle being the second fiddle to Curry and it would be the same story with LeBron.

Another issue is that the ongoing theme of the NBA right now is "out with the old, in with the new." I have a hard time seeing a team built around 40-year-old LeBron and 36-year-old post-Achilles Durant keeping up with all the younger, faster, more athletic teams. Skill and veteran savvy can only do so much to make up for that. I'm speaking from experience here as a Clippers fan whose team has become the retirement home of the NBA. Having the oldest roster in the league hasn't worked very well for us.

[homecourtloss]

Spoiler:

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I'm going to make some [unpopular] comments that I think need to be made at this point. I never visit the LeBron thread unless a post has been reported, and then when I check in, to my limited skimming it always seems like SEVERAL parties are at least marginally at fault. It's by far our most problematic thread, and I've sort of grown to hate it. So I'm just going to put some observations on record (hopefully not in too meandering a fashion).....

The LeBron Thread is not a place [or should not be a place] where one is ONLY allowed to sing Bron's praises. Posters should be allowed to level criticism in his direction or challenge the notion that he's the GOAT, without fear of personal attacks, ridicule, and generally being ganged up upon.

I'm a bit troubled by the perception that that is what is often seen here. I think most will recall the years of condescension and mock pity for another's delusions/ignorance, accusations of "stanning", and other general baiting that would come from the "Jordanites" if you had the audacity to suggest that LeBron was the GOAT.......even though, in many instances, LeBron's supporters were the ones providing the more thorough and convincing arguments (because let's face it: his resume for GOAT is astoundingly robust, and has been for a few years).

It was galling, was it not?

We're now starting to see that same behaviour, only now in the other direction: where if anyone dares cast a critical eye on LeBron's candidacy, he is met with accusations of bias/agenda, ridicule, condescension, and baiting (often from several persons at once).

I think multiple persons should be cautious that they don't become the very thing that they have hated in years past.


I will admit that (to my eye [I could be wrong]), the LeBron "haters" are more often guilty of flawed or bad faith arguments over the last few years. But that doesn't mean that each and every piece of data, argumentation, or opinion that casts him in a "less than GOAT" light is automatically given in bad faith (or necessarily even flawed).
And even if the argument is flimsy or flawed: just tease apart the argument itself, without casting the accusations, jabs and baits at the owner.


Further, while [again: to my eye] the "haters" are more often guilty of weak arguments or cherry-picked data, they don't have a corner on that market. I think there has been evidence of this even in the last several pages....

We've seen team net rating swing---data which is heavily influenced by various team factors, such as: role of the player in question, team construct and synergy, supporting cast depth, coaching, etc---used as the CHECKMATE argument for individual greatness, as though to the exclusion of anything else.

To use this data in this manner is probably already at least a little bit dubious.

One might further note that the bulk of Jordan's without sample was from '94: when he wasn't for a moment a part of that team in any capacity.
It wasn't like the missed games of other players: where the team is set up to play around that star for the season......and then suddenly he wasn't there for a handful of games (and the team then has to adjust in the short-term with whatever parts they had in place: becoming "Team X minus Star Y").
The '94 Bulls wasn't just the '93 cast minus Jordan. A number of new pieces were added.

Jordan's minutes on the perimeter where replaced by some combination of Pete Myers [meh], Steve Kerr [a nice supporting cast piece who would get 6MOY consideration], and rookie Toni Kukoc [promising young player]. And it's a slight thing, but they also marginally shored up their profound weakness at the C position by signing Bill Wennington, and [mid-season] off-loading the bloated baggage that was Stacey King in favour of Luc Longley.
These aren't Earth-shaking acquisitions, but they are additions to what was in place in '93 (and it certainly improved their bench, both in terms of quality and depth). As such, it muddies the water at least a little.
To me, using the '94 Bulls in the without would be a little bit like using the '15 Miami Heat outcome in LeBron's without sample: they still had Bosh, Wade, Chalmers, Chris Andersen, Udonis Haslem, Michael Beasley, Norris Cole [for half the year], plus a couple other scant-minute scrubs from '14; same coach, too. It's as much the "same team minus LeBron" as the the '94 Bulls were "the '93 Bulls minus Jordan". So why don't we just add it to Bron's without sample?
Because he wasn't a part of that organization at all that year; just like Jordan wasn't for the '94 Bulls.

And if ONLY using WOWY data gleaned from the years within the span where Jordan was actually part of the organization [at all], the Bulls without Jordan were 35-37 [from '88-'98] (.486 win%), vs .736 win% with him; and the net rating swing falls somewhere closer to +7.


One might additionally note that at least one of the persons pushing the net rating swing data as a CHECKMATE argument is, in other places, championing other players who look downright pedestrian based on the net rating change family of data. This could be viewed as suggestive that such data only represents a checkmate move when it supports one's position......and otherwise can be explained away with context, or countered and augmented with additional [more flattering] pieces of data, and so on.
At least one of these persons [after all of the above] went on to accuse others of bad faith argumentation and engage in repeated baiting, too.

If similar were done in the opposite direction [pro-Jordan and/or anti-LeBron], the author would be castigated and bullied until they felt like abandoning this forum (which, in fact, one poster itt was even encouraged to do).

But if it's in LeBron's favour---here on this forum, in this particular thread---not only are such parties NOT being called out, they are having others rally to their support to shout down and berate the opposition in what has many of the appearances of cronyism.


And I want to make something clear: I say all of the above as someone who has LeBron as the GOAT; has him as the GOAT by such a ridiculous margin at this point, that I am frankly bored by GOAT discussions.........for me the discussion doesn't really even begin until we're asking "who's #2?"
Because, by my criteria, and relating to my assessment of available information, LeBron is the GOAT by an absurdly obvious margin.

Even so, I submit to everyone that this cannot/should not become a place where a contrary opinion is flatly unwelcome. I have a great deal of worry that this forum is becoming---as some have accused---an echo chamber where dissenters are derided, bullied, and ganged up upon until they leave.

It's a bad look, and not a good thing for the health of the forum.
I'm sure this will sound condescending, but I think it needs saying anyway: be very careful that you are not one of the engines of this trend.

With all due respect, I think the crux of the issue in the LeBron thread is very simple, and it is not about not allowing contrary opinions.

You have posters who have made it clear that they are “haters” and/or have made literally hundreds and hundreds (if not thousands—just run a search on one of the posters currently posting in this thread post the Denver loss) of posts attacking/disparaging James on various boards who then show up after a loss or otherwise down times and then want to somehow engage in some sort of discussion as if all the other posts don’t exist and/or somehow are coming from a civil/neutral stance. When posters who are here do not take those posts at face value given all background, they aren’t guilty of not allowing contrary opinions, but rather understanding what the poster in question is doing here in the first place. Posters here have been critical of James and his game in an analytic way for years and years but nobody reacts to them the same way they react to someone who posts non-stop hate on the GB.

The biggest problem I see is not that LeBron can’t be criticized (even though it seems with some users, it seems they get extra-defensive and can’t handle the fair criticisms, but they’re in the minority I’d say); the biggest problem is in the way certain users absolutely make it a point just to come in here to troll, bait, and make disingenuous arguments. Eventually, it gets exhausting and frustrating. We report, they get warnings, it doesn’t seem to matter much, or so it feels. In some cases, it does matter of course, given some get banned.:

This.

[KembaWalker]

JJ Redick would be poor choice for the Lakers the same way he would be for my Hornets. Both teams need someone who will hold guys accountable. JJ Redick would get steamrolled by Lakers vets or Hornet bozos

Bud would be way better

[rk2023]

JJ Redick would be poor choice for the Lakers the same way he would be for my Hornets. Both teams need someone who will hold guys accountable. JJ Redick would get steamrolled by Lakers vets or Hornet bozos

Bud would be way better

In general, JJ would make for a really solid assistant coach imo. Think that’s what’s needed before taking his first stab at coaching as a teams’ HC. Feelings management & being able to work with / understand players - not just leaving them to dry - is a pretty underrated component of the gig.

[Colbinii]

JJ Redick would be poor choice for the Lakers the same way he would be for my Hornets. Both teams need someone who will hold guys accountable. JJ Redick would get steamrolled by Lakers vets or Hornet bozos

Bud would be way better

Bud has a better track record but I actually like what Ham is done in the post-season more than what I have seen from Bud.

Bud's calling card is getting the unit firing cleanly through an 82-game regular season. When it comes to detail, 7 game series, Bud isn't a world beater.

Maybe that's what the team needs since LeBron is going to be an advantage in any playoff series anyways with his brain.

[EmpireFalls]

Darvin Ham outcoached both Taylor Jenkins and Steve Kerr in playoff series. And I do not mean that he won the series, no, he countered their counters and adjusted to them and got the upper hand tactically in both series.

That is not something that should just be wiped aside.

[PaulieWal]

There’s a very subjective, fluid definition of baiting on this board that only allows for conversation to go in a certain, intended direction. Like obviously that post is bait but you’ll never see it get moderated the same way. Very lame given what this board is supposed to be about

Not giving a warning for this subtle backseat modding but man, I strongly disagree with this. Within this thread, you have the pro-LeBron guys thinking we are harsher on them than the anti-LeBron posters who they think are baiting or trolling. You are grossly mistaken if you think the mod team is biased to allow conversations only in a certain direction

If you think someone is baiting or attacking you, report the post and let us do our jobs.

The fact you reply to the LeBron fan with normal functioning human font and tone and to me like…this… over the same accusation kind of says it all. But this is probably the exact reply you were baiting for anyway

The fact that you think I was baiting you also kind of says it all. Also, says it all that you can't see the difference in your post vs. what Heej posted.

In any event, let's not derail this thread further. If you have any other complaints or concerns about the mod team being biased, feel free to PM me or any of the other forum mods to discuss.

[rk2023]

JJ Redick would be poor choice for the Lakers the same way he would be for my Hornets. Both teams need someone who will hold guys accountable. JJ Redick would get steamrolled by Lakers vets or Hornet bozos

Bud would be way better

Bud has a better track record but I actually like what Ham is done in the post-season more than what I have seen from Bud.

Bud's calling card is getting the unit firing cleanly through an 82-game regular season. When it comes to detail, 7 game series, Bud isn't a world beater.

Maybe that's what the team needs since LeBron is going to be an advantage in any playoff series anyways with his brain.

I’m hoping the Clips part ways with Lue and he’s on the other side of town next year.

[Heej]

Darvin Ham outcoached both Taylor Jenkins and Steve Kerr in playoff series. And I do not mean that he won the series, no, he countered their counters and adjusted to them and got the upper hand tactically in both series.

That is not something that should just be wiped aside.

He's a great assistant coach. I've always said the gameplans have been relatively on point. He's just not good at momentum management unfortunately which is probably one of the main skills a head coach needs.

[Colbinii]

JJ Redick would be poor choice for the Lakers the same way he would be for my Hornets. Both teams need someone who will hold guys accountable. JJ Redick would get steamrolled by Lakers vets or Hornet bozos

Bud would be way better

Bud has a better track record but I actually like what Ham is done in the post-season more than what I have seen from Bud.

Bud's calling card is getting the unit firing cleanly through an 82-game regular season. When it comes to detail, 7 game series, Bud isn't a world beater.

Maybe that's what the team needs since LeBron is going to be an advantage in any playoff series anyways with his brain.

I’m hoping the Clips part ways with Lue and he’s on the other side of town next year.

Negotiations would be fun.

"Could have paid me this money before, cheap ass"

[Ian Scuffling]

Lebron's tweet is understandable, but still leaves a bit to the imagination in regards to him calling it a career or not. However, given his ego, don't know if going out without a retirement tour season is really probable. Last year seemed different in that you could sense how pissed off he was the way it ended, getting swept so close to the Finals. A first round exit against the defending champs changes perspective quite a bit.

And as for the other stuff, Lebron, no human for that matter, is not above criticism WHEN it is warranted. Some very valid criticisims I've seen are his body language at times, shot selection earlier in his career (I guess "heat checks" are still a thing ), and bad shooting games. However, in regards to the latter point, he really doesn't have many of those, so when people harp on one, it just seems goofy as all players have bad shooting games. It happens. He really has them less often than most other players. I get why the "off court" stuff gets hated on, but I don't understand it nor share in it. He's a basketball player to me and he's everything else to his family and friends. They seem to love him and that is great and all that matters. I guess it's the whole "Role Model" thing or not.

[PistolPeteJR]

JJ Redick would be poor choice for the Lakers the same way he would be for my Hornets. Both teams need someone who will hold guys accountable. JJ Redick would get steamrolled by Lakers vets or Hornet bozos

Bud would be way better

Bud has a better track record but I actually like what Ham is done in the post-season more than what I have seen from Bud.

Bud's calling card is getting the unit firing cleanly through an 82-game regular season. When it comes to detail, 7 game series, Bud isn't a world beater.

Maybe that's what the team needs since LeBron is going to be an advantage in any playoff series anyways with his brain.

I agree, although I'm not sure if Ham seems better than Bud in the postseason thus far because of LeBron's on-court and off-the-court coaching.