The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Playoffs & Off-Season Thread -(NO PERSONAL ATTACKS & BAITING)

[OhayoKD]

There’s a very subjective, fluid definition of baiting on this board that only allows for conversation to go in a certain, intended direction. Like obviously that post is bait but you’ll never see it get moderated the same way. Very lame given what this board is supposed to be about

Is this definition "when people present opinions I don't like with evidence I have no rebuttal for".

I’m not taking the bait

Then take the L:

I don’t know why people keep saying LeBron is worse offensively than players he's obviously superior to

LeBron 2009-2021
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
Net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
Net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference

+12 total swing

Jokic 2022-2024
136-68 (66.7% win rate) with jokic
8-15 (34.8% win rate) without jokic
+4.1 net rating with jokic (53 win pace)
-4.6 net rating without jokic (28 win pace)
+6.5 ortg change
+8.7 overall change

Magic 1984-1991
454-149 75.3% win rate with
29-24 54.7% win rate
+7.4 net rating with (61 win pace level)
+0.2 net rating without (42 win pace level)
+4.9 ortg difference
+7.2 overall difference

Jordan 1988-1998
Bulls with MJ 490-176 (73.6% win rate)
Bulls without MJ 90-64 (58.4% win rate)
Net rating with MJ +7.7 (62 win pace level)
Net rating without MJ +3.6 (52 win pace level)
+5.1 ortg difference
+4 total swing

Your idol wasn't good enough. Boo **** hoo.

Aggressive baiting. Warned. trex

[KembaWalker]

Is this definition "when people present opinions I don't like with evidence I have no rebuttal for".

I’m not taking the bait

Then take the L:

I don’t know why people keep saying LeBron is worse offensively than players he's obviously superior to

LeBron 2009-2021
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
Net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
Net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference

+12 total swing

Jokic 2022-2024
136-68 (66.7% win rate) with jokic
8-15 (34.8% win rate) without jokic
+4.1 net rating with jokic (53 win pace)
-4.6 net rating without jokic (28 win pace)
+6.5 ortg change
+8.7 overall change

Magic 1984-1991
454-149 75.3% win rate with
29-24 54.7% win rate
+7.4 net rating with (61 win pace level)
+0.2 net rating without (42 win pace level)
+4.9 ortg difference
+7.2 overall difference

Jordan 1988-1998
Bulls with MJ 490-176 (73.6% win rate)
Bulls without MJ 90-64 (58.4% win rate)
Net rating with MJ +7.7 (62 win pace level)
Net rating without MJ +3.6 (52 win pace level)
+5.1 ortg difference
+4 total swing

Your idol wasn't good enough. Boo **** hoo.

Good enough to what? lemme know when they start handing out banners for net rating swing

[EmpireFalls]

The last NBA trophy he will win in his career is the IST, the last trophy full stop will be the Olympic gold (though that’s no foregone conclusion either). I think you guys are grasping at straws a bit. The team around him just isn’t enough and the assets aren’t enough to fashion a title team out of even the smartest trades. Better to just accept the joy of watching greatness for what it is. The title isn’t happening.

[AEnigma]

The last NBA trophy he will win in his career is the IST, the last trophy full stop will be the Olympic gold (though that’s no foregone conclusion either). I think you guys are grasping at straws a bit. The team around him just isn’t enough and the assets aren’t enough to fashion a title team out of even the smartest trades. Better to just accept the joy of watching greatness for what it is. The title isn’t happening.

Two things I am passively watching:
- Currently joint fifth for most playoff appearances; one more ties with Kareem and Duncan, two more ties with Stockton and Malone
- 68 games to tie Kareem’s regular season games played (18 games from total lead)

Every other notable accomplishment will either happen almost automatically or will take at least two seasons to do. This year he became the oldest all-NBA player (even while being disrespected with a third-team) and sole holder of most all-star appearances, so he would just be padding those leads.

[Ian Scuffling]

I’m not taking the bait

Then take the L:

I don’t know why people keep saying LeBron is worse offensively than players he's obviously superior to

LeBron 2009-2021
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
Net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
Net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference

+12 total swing

Jokic 2022-2024
136-68 (66.7% win rate) with jokic
8-15 (34.8% win rate) without jokic
+4.1 net rating with jokic (53 win pace)
-4.6 net rating without jokic (28 win pace)
+6.5 ortg change
+8.7 overall change

Magic 1984-1991
454-149 75.3% win rate with
29-24 54.7% win rate
+7.4 net rating with (61 win pace level)
+0.2 net rating without (42 win pace level)
+4.9 ortg difference
+7.2 overall difference

Jordan 1988-1998
Bulls with MJ 490-176 (73.6% win rate)
Bulls without MJ 90-64 (58.4% win rate)
Net rating with MJ +7.7 (62 win pace level)
Net rating without MJ +3.6 (52 win pace level)
+5.1 ortg difference
+4 total swing

Your idol wasn't good enough. Boo **** hoo.

Good enough to what? lemme know when they start handing out banners for net rating swing

And THIS is why your comments aren't taken seriously, but rather as cartoon steretypical troll droppings. Banners go to Teams, not players. That really is NOT a hard concept to grasp, but there you go...failing to grasp it. RAAAANNGGGZZZ!!1!!!1

[Ian Scuffling]

The last NBA trophy he will win in his career is the IST, the last trophy full stop will be the Olympic gold (though that’s no foregone conclusion either). I think you guys are grasping at straws a bit. The team around him just isn’t enough and the assets aren’t enough to fashion a title team out of even the smartest trades. Better to just accept the joy of watching greatness for what it is. The title isn’t happening.

That's where I've been at the last couple of years. It's kind of hard to do as he's still so damned good. But, the truth he isn't prime James anymore and he can't be himself for full games or cover for poor play by teammates. I've just been enjoying watching this guy play this game at such a high level for so long. It truly is unprecendented.

[KembaWalker]

Then take the L:



Your idol wasn't good enough. Boo **** hoo.

Good enough to what? lemme know when they start handing out banners for net rating swing

And THIS is why your comments aren't taken seriously, but rather as cartoon steretypical troll droppings. Banners go to Teams, not players. That really is NOT a hard concept to grasp, but there you go...failing to grasp it. RAAAANNGGGZZZ!!1!!!1

Okay, let me reword for you. Let me know when literally anyone on earth outside 4 people in this thread cares about net rating swing as a GOAT criteria

[Ian Scuffling]

Not sure why you're laughing and I know it's just a jest, but net rating swings are actually important and informs of a player's contribution to his TEAM, whereas rings say nothing about a players' contribution. And it's not like I don't like Jordan. He was my GOAT, until I started to think about things differently in regards to the inherently difficult job in comparing players in different eras. He's still on that Mt. Rushmore, though. Along with James, Kareem and Magic.

[KembaWalker]

Not sure why you're laughing and I know it's just a jest, but net rating swings are actually important and informs of a player's contribution to his TEAM, whereas rings say nothing about a players' contribution. And it's not like I don't like Jordan. He was my GOAT, until I started to think about things differently in regards to the inherently difficult job in comparing players in different eras. He's still on that Mt. Rushmore, though. Along with James, Kareem and Magic.

Net rating has more to do with roster construction than any measure of individual ability. I absolutely could not care less to what degree someone’s team craters when they’re off the floor. This is just another way to state what everyone knows, LeBron is a floor raising hub that likes to do everything. That’s one style of player, MJ found more success in a team system. Breaking news!!

[Colbinii]

Not sure why you're laughing and I know it's just a jest, but net rating swings are actually important and informs of a player's contribution to his TEAM, whereas rings say nothing about a players' contribution. And it's not like I don't like Jordan. He was my GOAT, until I started to think about things differently in regards to the inherently difficult job in comparing players in different eras. He's still on that Mt. Rushmore, though. Along with James, Kareem and Magic.

Net rating has more to do with roster construction than any measure of individual ability. I absolutely could not care less to what degree someone’s team craters when they’re off the floor. This is just another way to state what everyone knows, LeBron is a floor raising hub that likes to do everything. That’s one style of player, MJ found more success in a team system. Breaking news!!

Except LeBron is also a GOAT level ceiling raiser.

What was the ceiling of any of his title teams without him?

What was the ceiling of the 1994 Bulls? I feel like the ceiling of the 1994 Bulls was significantly higher than any LeBron-less team, which simply means LeBron was just as capable of raising a teams ceiling to the highest level as Jordan was.

LeBron likes to do everything because he can do everything at an elite to ATG level. His Cutting is ATG on a PPP basis. His passing is ATG. His scoring is ATG. His defense is ATG [and far better than Jordan's].

So, I agree that LeBron is a floor raising hub far more than that of Jordan, I also believe LeBron showing he could win with a variety of supporting casts [Jordan didn't have the same variety of championship casts, his were all similar] that it shows the versatility of LeBron James. It shows just how great of a ceiling raiser LeBron James is/was, as he raised the ceilings of different teams, with different players, to the highest of levels.

But, since your argument is so strong, let's just imagine this. Nothing here is in LeBron's control. Kyrie Irving stays healthy in 2015 and the Cavaliers win. Kevin Durant doesn't join the Warriors and the Cavaliers win in 2017 as well as 2018 as Kyrie stays with the Cavaliers. Very reasonable to think this happens, and all of a sudden it is LeBron with 7 titles, it is LeBron with 4-Consecutive titles, yet nothing actually changed about LeBron's level of player or his style of play

Maybe looking solely at NBA titles and not at the whole picture is more meaningful discussion. Your talking points read like a drunk Bill Simmons after the Celtics lose in the post-season.

[KembaWalker]

Not sure why you're laughing and I know it's just a jest, but net rating swings are actually important and informs of a player's contribution to his TEAM, whereas rings say nothing about a players' contribution. And it's not like I don't like Jordan. He was my GOAT, until I started to think about things differently in regards to the inherently difficult job in comparing players in different eras. He's still on that Mt. Rushmore, though. Along with James, Kareem and Magic.

Net rating has more to do with roster construction than any measure of individual ability. I absolutely could not care less to what degree someone’s team craters when they’re off the floor. This is just another way to state what everyone knows, LeBron is a floor raising hub that likes to do everything. That’s one style of player, MJ found more success in a team system. Breaking news!!

Except LeBron is also a GOAT level ceiling raiser.

What was the ceiling of any of his title teams without him?

What was the ceiling of the 1994 Bulls? I feel like the ceiling of the 1994 Bulls was significantly higher than any LeBron-less team, which simply means LeBron was just as capable of raising a teams ceiling to the highest level as Jordan was.

LeBron likes to do everything because he can do everything at an elite to ATG level. His Cutting is ATG on a PPP basis. His passing is ATG. His scoring is ATG. His defense is ATG [and far better than Jordan's].

So, I agree that LeBron is a floor raising hub far more than that of Jordan, I also believe LeBron showing he could win with a variety of supporting casts [Jordan didn't have the same variety of championship casts, his were all similar] that it shows the versatility of LeBron James. It shows just how great of a ceiling raiser LeBron James is/was, as he raised the ceilings of different teams, with different players, to the highest of levels.

Winning with the same aging core is much harder than changing teams, especially repeating. That’s why nobody even tries anymore. This argument isn’t swaying anyone, ever

[Colbinii]

Net rating has more to do with roster construction than any measure of individual ability. I absolutely could not care less to what degree someone’s team craters when they’re off the floor. This is just another way to state what everyone knows, LeBron is a floor raising hub that likes to do everything. That’s one style of player, MJ found more success in a team system. Breaking news!!

Except LeBron is also a GOAT level ceiling raiser.

What was the ceiling of any of his title teams without him?

What was the ceiling of the 1994 Bulls? I feel like the ceiling of the 1994 Bulls was significantly higher than any LeBron-less team, which simply means LeBron was just as capable of raising a teams ceiling to the highest level as Jordan was.

LeBron likes to do everything because he can do everything at an elite to ATG level. His Cutting is ATG on a PPP basis. His passing is ATG. His scoring is ATG. His defense is ATG [and far better than Jordan's].

So, I agree that LeBron is a floor raising hub far more than that of Jordan, I also believe LeBron showing he could win with a variety of supporting casts [Jordan didn't have the same variety of championship casts, his were all similar] that it shows the versatility of LeBron James. It shows just how great of a ceiling raiser LeBron James is/was, as he raised the ceilings of different teams, with different players, to the highest of levels.

Winning with the same aging core is much harder than changing teams, especially repeating. That’s why nobody even tries anymore. This argument isn’t swaying anyone, ever

Bro, Jordan literally left the core mid-way through

Golden State tried and succeeded

San Antonio tried and succeeded

Miami has a core that has been to 2 finals over 4 seasons and seems to be keeping Bam/Butler/Herro in tact

Denver is likely keeping this core

Literally the two teams to win the most over the past 20 seasons have had the same core in tact. The only other team/player to win like San Antonio/Golden State is...LeBron James.

[Ian Scuffling]

Not sure why you're laughing and I know it's just a jest, but net rating swings are actually important and informs of a player's contribution to his TEAM, whereas rings say nothing about a players' contribution. And it's not like I don't like Jordan. He was my GOAT, until I started to think about things differently in regards to the inherently difficult job in comparing players in different eras. He's still on that Mt. Rushmore, though. Along with James, Kareem and Magic.

Net rating has more to do with roster construction than any measure of individual ability. I absolutely could not care less to what degree someone’s team craters when they’re off the floor. This is just another way to state what everyone knows, LeBron is a floor raising hub that likes to do everything. That’s one style of player, MJ found more success in a team system. Breaking news!!

Now, you are just trolling. Got it. However, you're correct as Jordan had MUCH better coaching than Lebron.

[KembaWalker]

Except LeBron is also a GOAT level ceiling raiser.

What was the ceiling of any of his title teams without him?

What was the ceiling of the 1994 Bulls? I feel like the ceiling of the 1994 Bulls was significantly higher than any LeBron-less team, which simply means LeBron was just as capable of raising a teams ceiling to the highest level as Jordan was.

LeBron likes to do everything because he can do everything at an elite to ATG level. His Cutting is ATG on a PPP basis. His passing is ATG. His scoring is ATG. His defense is ATG [and far better than Jordan's].

So, I agree that LeBron is a floor raising hub far more than that of Jordan, I also believe LeBron showing he could win with a variety of supporting casts [Jordan didn't have the same variety of championship casts, his were all similar] that it shows the versatility of LeBron James. It shows just how great of a ceiling raiser LeBron James is/was, as he raised the ceilings of different teams, with different players, to the highest of levels.

Winning with the same aging core is much harder than changing teams, especially repeating. That’s why nobody even tries anymore. This argument isn’t swaying anyone, ever

Bro, Jordan literally left the core mid-way through

Golden State tried and succeeded

San Antonio tried and succeeded

Miami has a core that has been to 2 finals over 4 seasons and seems to be keeping Bam/Butler/Herro in tact

Denver is likely keeping this core

Literally the two teams to win the most over the past 20 seasons have had the same core in tact. The only other team/player to win like San Antonio/Golden State is...LeBron James.

I don’t really understand what your argument is, that LeBron left his aging cores to make it harder for himself? That doesn’t really track

[Ian Scuffling]

Except LeBron is also a GOAT level ceiling raiser.

What was the ceiling of any of his title teams without him?

What was the ceiling of the 1994 Bulls? I feel like the ceiling of the 1994 Bulls was significantly higher than any LeBron-less team, which simply means LeBron was just as capable of raising a teams ceiling to the highest level as Jordan was.

LeBron likes to do everything because he can do everything at an elite to ATG level. His Cutting is ATG on a PPP basis. His passing is ATG. His scoring is ATG. His defense is ATG [and far better than Jordan's].

So, I agree that LeBron is a floor raising hub far more than that of Jordan, I also believe LeBron showing he could win with a variety of supporting casts [Jordan didn't have the same variety of championship casts, his were all similar] that it shows the versatility of LeBron James. It shows just how great of a ceiling raiser LeBron James is/was, as he raised the ceilings of different teams, with different players, to the highest of levels.

Winning with the same aging core is much harder than changing teams, especially repeating. That’s why nobody even tries anymore. This argument isn’t swaying anyone, ever

Bro, Jordan literally left the core mid-way through

Golden State tried and succeeded

San Antonio tried and succeeded

Miami has a core that has been to 2 finals over 4 seasons and seems to be keeping Bam/Butler/Herro in tact

Denver is likely keeping this core

Literally the two teams to win the most over the past 20 seasons have had the same core in tact. The only other team/player to win like San Antonio/Golden State is...LeBron James.

He's just trolling at this point, or any attempt at critical thinking is hard for him. Either way. I'm done with him.

[KembaWalker]

Winning with the same aging core is much harder than changing teams, especially repeating. That’s why nobody even tries anymore. This argument isn’t swaying anyone, ever

Bro, Jordan literally left the core mid-way through

Golden State tried and succeeded

San Antonio tried and succeeded

Miami has a core that has been to 2 finals over 4 seasons and seems to be keeping Bam/Butler/Herro in tact

Denver is likely keeping this core

Literally the two teams to win the most over the past 20 seasons have had the same core in tact. The only other team/player to win like San Antonio/Golden State is...LeBron James.

He's just trolling at this point, or any attempt at critical thinking is hard for him. Either way. I'm done with him.

Why’s it always devolve into some personal attack with yall. Can’t help yourselves. If you’re done with me, stop responding. If you think I’m trolling, report. You don’t HAVE to call me stupid though. You can do better than that

[Heej]

I’m not taking the bait

Then take the L:

I don’t know why people keep saying LeBron is worse offensively than players he's obviously superior to

LeBron 2009-2021
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
Net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
Net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference

+12 total swing

Jokic 2022-2024
136-68 (66.7% win rate) with jokic
8-15 (34.8% win rate) without jokic
+4.1 net rating with jokic (53 win pace)
-4.6 net rating without jokic (28 win pace)
+6.5 ortg change
+8.7 overall change

Magic 1984-1991
454-149 75.3% win rate with
29-24 54.7% win rate
+7.4 net rating with (61 win pace level)
+0.2 net rating without (42 win pace level)
+4.9 ortg difference
+7.2 overall difference

Jordan 1988-1998
Bulls with MJ 490-176 (73.6% win rate)
Bulls without MJ 90-64 (58.4% win rate)
Net rating with MJ +7.7 (62 win pace level)
Net rating without MJ +3.6 (52 win pace level)
+5.1 ortg difference
+4 total swing

Your idol wasn't good enough. Boo **** hoo.

Good enough to what? lemme know when they start handing out banners for net rating swing

Good enough to win without the best supporting cast and coaching staff in the league is what I'm sure hes getting at.

[Heej]

Net rating has more to do with roster construction than any measure of individual ability. I absolutely could not care less to what degree someone’s team craters when they’re off the floor. This is just another way to state what everyone knows, LeBron is a floor raising hub that likes to do everything. That’s one style of player, MJ found more success in a team system. Breaking news!!

Except LeBron is also a GOAT level ceiling raiser.

What was the ceiling of any of his title teams without him?

What was the ceiling of the 1994 Bulls? I feel like the ceiling of the 1994 Bulls was significantly higher than any LeBron-less team, which simply means LeBron was just as capable of raising a teams ceiling to the highest level as Jordan was.

LeBron likes to do everything because he can do everything at an elite to ATG level. His Cutting is ATG on a PPP basis. His passing is ATG. His scoring is ATG. His defense is ATG [and far better than Jordan's].

So, I agree that LeBron is a floor raising hub far more than that of Jordan, I also believe LeBron showing he could win with a variety of supporting casts [Jordan didn't have the same variety of championship casts, his were all similar] that it shows the versatility of LeBron James. It shows just how great of a ceiling raiser LeBron James is/was, as he raised the ceilings of different teams, with different players, to the highest of levels.

Winning with the same aging core is much harder than changing teams, especially repeating. That’s why nobody even tries anymore. This argument isn’t swaying anyone, ever

Eh, continuity matters. Few understand this though

[Heej]

Winning with the same aging core is much harder than changing teams, especially repeating. That’s why nobody even tries anymore. This argument isn’t swaying anyone, ever

Bro, Jordan literally left the core mid-way through

Golden State tried and succeeded

San Antonio tried and succeeded

Miami has a core that has been to 2 finals over 4 seasons and seems to be keeping Bam/Butler/Herro in tact

Denver is likely keeping this core

Literally the two teams to win the most over the past 20 seasons have had the same core in tact. The only other team/player to win like San Antonio/Golden State is...LeBron James.

I don’t really understand what your argument is, that LeBron left his aging cores to make it harder for himself? That doesn’t really track

Did he leave more because they were aging or because they were injured? Jordan had multiple seasons of a healthy Scottie, and the one season he was injured the Bulls' top 3 opponents all had injuries LMAO

I find it interesting how as time goes on and more context gets unearthed from that era despite media brainwashing, the less impressive Jordan's opponents and individual impact looks

[Cavsfansince84]

Winning with the same aging core is much harder than changing teams, especially repeating. That’s why nobody even tries anymore. This argument isn’t swaying anyone, ever

a. I don't get the 'no one even tries anymore' statement. Everyone tries(except for Kawhi in 2020) and some succeed.
b. Re the bolded part. If its so much easier to just switch teams why didn't MJ just do that rather than retire at 35? The reason he didn't is he knew full well how hard it would actually be and how it would be setting himself up for failure rather than retiring with his 6-0 in finals record in tact and his legacy secure. He didn't want to mess with that the same way he retired after the first 3 peat because deep down he knew how hard it would be to do 4 in a row and he'd rather sit out than risk losing. That's what I think. He said over and over again how burnt out he was(which I'm sure he was) but what it comes down to is him not wanting to have a season below the standard he'd set for himself which is a copout tbh. LeBron whether you like him or not just kept coming back and making finals runs season after season after season. No early retirements, no years off.