Rank these players offensively (peak): Magic, Jordan, LeBron, Curry, Jokic

[ShotCreator]

"Jokic doing less makes him better because it fits my aesthetic preferences even though it doesn't lead to comparable or better offensive results"

Nope. Jokic can play his entire game next to anybody else's entire game. Across the current league and any era. LeBron absolutely cannot do that.

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=DenverStiffsANuggetsBasketballBlog

Jokic made lineups with Plumlee, Faried, Bruce Brown while refusing to shoot, Aaron Gordon while refusing to shoot, work to perfection.

+2.6 offense is now "perfection", fascinating.

And what offensive results? I feel this would get into nitpicking series and time periods. I'd rather nitpick skillsets. That's actually way less subject to randomness and chance

You would rather "nitpick skillsets" based on priors like "lebron being a better ball-handler than jokic is a bad thing" and "lebron handling the ball more throughout a possession" is a bad thing, even though actual outcomes suggest those are good things. There is no point in nitpicking skillsets if you are going to pretend one player's advantages are actually weaknesses, particularly when...

I don’t know why people keep saying LeBron is worse offensively than players he's obviously superior to

LeBron 2009-2021
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
Net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
Net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference

+12 total swing

Jokic 2022-2024
136-68 (66.7% win rate) with jokic
8-15 (34.8% win rate) without jokic
+4.1 net rating with jokic (53 win pace)
-4.6 net rating without jokic (28 win pace)
+6.5 ortg change
+8.7 overall change

Magic 1984-1991
454-149 75.3% win rate with
29-24 54.7% win rate
+7.4 net rating with (61 win pace level)
+0.2 net rating without (42 win pace level)
+4.9 ortg difference
+7.2 overall difference

Jordan 1988-1998
Bulls with MJ 490-176 (73.6% win rate)
Bulls without MJ 90-64 (58.4% win rate)
Net rating with MJ +7.7 (62 win pace level)
Net rating without MJ +3.6 (52 win pace level)
+5.1 ortg difference
+4 total swing

The most impactful offensive player ever by the facts

Those "weaknesses" seemingly correlate with better team outcomes again and again. Speaking of which...

1. Jokic
His combination of scoring and playmaking is untouchable. As we get more playoff runs I don't know if it will be close. He is easily one of the clutchest players I have ever seen. His ability to score at will is second to none and right there with MJ/Bron, yet he doesn't need to be ball dominant. Fluidly blending of his scoring with his playmaking and you have this monster. Its just mind boggling. If it wasn't for his defensive flaws he might run away with the number 1 peak. As the great cavalry commander Maharbal said of military genius Hannibal: "Assuredly, no man has been blessed with all God's gifts".

2. MJ
Basketball is about getting buckets and it just so happens that this dude is the greatest scorer of all time. Resume speaks for itself. The most complete perimeter player besides bron.
3. Bron
If we don't go relative to era I might swap Mj and bron but its close regardless.
4. Curry
It just seems like his scoring game is more easily taken away by defenses compared to the first 3. might be a size thing.
5. Magic
I don't think his scoring game compares with the other 4 here.

1. Jokic
1.5. {Nash]
2. Magic
gap
3. Jordan
4. Lebron
5. Curry

Curious what has you two convinced lebron is at or near the bottom of this list offensively when his team improves the most offensively with him of the pack...and this has mantained over a wider variety of contexts than any other player in history.

Can you stop making up fake quotes of what I'm saying?

And actually notice how I said LeBron is faster, I never said he was an actual superior ballhandler. I don't know if that's even true.

Again, about what I thought. Time periods and team play. Things these players are not in full control of. As well as opposition.


LeBron had some bad teammates, scattered through his prime, and some weak competition. Same for Jokic. Like different eras, conferences, coaches. Jokic had a whole prime year in 2017 of being thought of a big fat sixth man by Malone. They miss the playoffs by a game or two. He only got to start maybe 50 or so games.

I don't care about team level stuff that much, especially on this scale. I don't really need it to know what I know. And this a peaks thread anyway.


Again it's all preference. I prefer raw skills and abilities, and then I try to contextualize the team play with that if it's necessary.

I'm not even pretending I know who is better by the way. I didn't even make a choice on that. I do know it is objectively easier to play basketball with Jokic's skill set compared to LeBron's. And that's gonna effect everything. Including the kind of teams you can build.


Bruce Brown and Gordon got to share the court late in the NBA playoffs because of Jokic. And got synergize and dominate with each other on both ends.

I don't think that's happening with practically any version of LeBron. Or Magic really.

[Heej]

Nope. Jokic can play his entire game next to anybody else's entire game. Across the current league and any era. LeBron absolutely cannot do that.

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=DenverStiffsANuggetsBasketballBlog

Jokic made lineups with Plumlee, Faried, Bruce Brown while refusing to shoot, Aaron Gordon while refusing to shoot, work to perfection.

+2.6 offense is now "perfection", fascinating.

And what offensive results? I feel this would get into nitpicking series and time periods. I'd rather nitpick skillsets. That's actually way less subject to randomness and chance

You would rather "nitpick skillsets" based on priors like "lebron being a better ball-handler than jokic is a bad thing" and "lebron handling the ball more throughout a possession" is a bad thing, even though actual outcomes suggest those are good things. There is no point in nitpicking skillsets if you are going to pretend one player's advantages are actually weaknesses, particularly when...

I don’t know why people keep saying LeBron is worse offensively than players he's obviously superior to

LeBron 2009-2021
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
Net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
Net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference

+12 total swing

Jokic 2022-2024
136-68 (66.7% win rate) with jokic
8-15 (34.8% win rate) without jokic
+4.1 net rating with jokic (53 win pace)
-4.6 net rating without jokic (28 win pace)
+6.5 ortg change
+8.7 overall change

Magic 1984-1991
454-149 75.3% win rate with
29-24 54.7% win rate
+7.4 net rating with (61 win pace level)
+0.2 net rating without (42 win pace level)
+4.9 ortg difference
+7.2 overall difference

Jordan 1988-1998
Bulls with MJ 490-176 (73.6% win rate)
Bulls without MJ 90-64 (58.4% win rate)
Net rating with MJ +7.7 (62 win pace level)
Net rating without MJ +3.6 (52 win pace level)
+5.1 ortg difference
+4 total swing

The most impactful offensive player ever by the facts

Those "weaknesses" seemingly correlate with better team outcomes again and again. Speaking of which...

1. Jokic
His combination of scoring and playmaking is untouchable. As we get more playoff runs I don't know if it will be close. He is easily one of the clutchest players I have ever seen. His ability to score at will is second to none and right there with MJ/Bron, yet he doesn't need to be ball dominant. Fluidly blending of his scoring with his playmaking and you have this monster. Its just mind boggling. If it wasn't for his defensive flaws he might run away with the number 1 peak. As the great cavalry commander Maharbal said of military genius Hannibal: "Assuredly, no man has been blessed with all God's gifts".

2. MJ
Basketball is about getting buckets and it just so happens that this dude is the greatest scorer of all time. Resume speaks for itself. The most complete perimeter player besides bron.
3. Bron
If we don't go relative to era I might swap Mj and bron but its close regardless.
4. Curry
It just seems like his scoring game is more easily taken away by defenses compared to the first 3. might be a size thing.
5. Magic
I don't think his scoring game compares with the other 4 here.

1. Jokic
1.5. {Nash]
2. Magic
gap
3. Jordan
4. Lebron
5. Curry

Curious what has you two convinced lebron is at or near the bottom of this list offensively when his team improves the most offensively with him of the pack...and this has mantained over a wider variety of contexts than any other player in history.

Can you stop making up fake quotes of what I'm saying?

And actually notice how I said LeBron is faster, I never said he was an actual superior ballhandler. I don't know if that's even true.

Again, about what I thought. Time periods and team play. Things these players are not in full control of. As well as opposition.


LeBron had some bad teammates, scattered through his prime, and some weak competition. Same for Jokic. Like different eras, conferences, coaches. Jokic had a whole prime year in 2017 of being thought of a big fat sixth man by Malone. They miss the playoffs by a game or two. He only got to start maybe 50 or so games.

I don't care about team level stuff that much, especially on this scale. I don't really need it to know what I know. And this a peaks thread anyway.


Again it's all preference. I prefer raw skills and abilities, and then I try to contextualize the team play with that if it's necessary.

I'm not even pretending I know who is better by the way. I didn't even make a choice on that. I do know it is objectively easier to play basketball with Jokic's skill set compared to LeBron's. And that's gonna effect everything. Including the kind of teams you can build.


Bruce Brown and Gordon got to share the court late in the NBA playoffs because of Jokic. And got synergize and dominate with each other on both ends.

I don't think that's happening with practically any version of LeBron. Or Magic really.

2013 Heat got Birdman and ripped off a 27 game win streak lol. LeBron can easily lift low skill guys at a different position than him as well man what are we doing here.

[Onus]

Curry probably the only player that didn’t play with a stretch big to give him space. Also constantly played with 2 players teams didn’t even have to guard.

[Colbinii]

Curry probably the only player that didn’t play with a stretch big to give him space. Also constantly played with 2 players teams didn’t even have to guard.

Who?

You had to guard Draymond. If you don't guard Draymond, he simply runs a P&R or a DHO or delivers a perfect pass to Klay/Curry curling off a screen since nobody is in front of him.

[Onus]

Curry probably the only player that didn’t play with a stretch big to give him space. Also constantly played with 2 players teams didn’t even have to guard.

Who?

You had to guard Draymond. If you don't guard Draymond, he simply runs a P&R or a DHO or delivers a perfect pass to Klay/Curry curling off a screen since nobody is in front of him.

So you’re not actually guarding Draymond your guarding who he screens for. Thanks for agreeing.

[Colbinii]

Curry probably the only player that didn’t play with a stretch big to give him space. Also constantly played with 2 players teams didn’t even have to guard.

Who?

You had to guard Draymond. If you don't guard Draymond, he simply runs a P&R or a DHO or delivers a perfect pass to Klay/Curry curling off a screen since nobody is in front of him.

So you’re not actually guarding Draymond your guarding who he screens for. Thanks for agreeing.

Right, that's how the NBA works and basketball.

Basketball is simply set after set after set trying to get to what you want [Called getting an advantage]. Draymond is excellent at getting not just to sets quickly but the correct sets and then getting the ball to the correct players in the set to create an advantage.

You can't literally play 4v5 against Draymond because he will find the weakness and exploit it.

[Onus]

Who?

You had to guard Draymond. If you don't guard Draymond, he simply runs a P&R or a DHO or delivers a perfect pass to Klay/Curry curling off a screen since nobody is in front of him.

So you’re not actually guarding Draymond your guarding who he screens for. Thanks for agreeing.

Right, that's how the NBA works and basketball.

Basketball is simply set after set after set trying to get to what you want [Called getting an advantage]. Draymond is excellent at getting not just to sets quickly but the correct sets and then getting the ball to the correct players in the set to create an advantage.

You can't literally play 4v5 against Draymond because he will find the weakness and exploit it.

Teams have consistently chosen to allow Draymond to play 4v3 rather than let Steph see any daylight. He usually carves it up but when teams stymie the warriors it’s because they can guard Draymond at the rim and the dump off at the same time.

[Colbinii]

So you’re not actually guarding Draymond your guarding who he screens for. Thanks for agreeing.

Right, that's how the NBA works and basketball.

Basketball is simply set after set after set trying to get to what you want [Called getting an advantage]. Draymond is excellent at getting not just to sets quickly but the correct sets and then getting the ball to the correct players in the set to create an advantage.

You can't literally play 4v5 against Draymond because he will find the weakness and exploit it.

Teams have consistently chosen to allow Draymond to play 4v3 rather than let Steph see any daylight. He usually carves it up but when teams stymie the warriors it’s because they can guard Draymond at the rim and the dump off at the same time.

Sure, he isn't perfect, but he was a major reason the teams offense was so successful. He is an ATG passing Big with incredible BBIQ.

For the record, LeBron had terrible spacing in 2020 and won the Championship.

[lessthanjake]

Who?

You had to guard Draymond. If you don't guard Draymond, he simply runs a P&R or a DHO or delivers a perfect pass to Klay/Curry curling off a screen since nobody is in front of him.

So you’re not actually guarding Draymond your guarding who he screens for. Thanks for agreeing.

Right, that's how the NBA works and basketball.

Basketball is simply set after set after set trying to get to what you want [Called getting an advantage]. Draymond is excellent at getting not just to sets quickly but the correct sets and then getting the ball to the correct players in the set to create an advantage.

You can't literally play 4v5 against Draymond because he will find the weakness and exploit it.

You have to guard actions Draymond is involved with on the ball, but you certainly don’t have to respect him from a spacing perspective off the ball, and your options to defend him when he has the ball are much better/more effective given his lack of shooting or driving. All you really need to do is aim to shut down his passing, since that’s the only effective option he has. That is a pretty severe limitation for the offense. The passing makes him harder to deal with than someone who has no offensive skill whatsoever, but someone as offensively one-dimensional as Draymond creates big problems for the offense, and it just so happens that Curry’s so good and has such chemistry with Draymond that they could make it work without the team collapsing offensively—and indeed, they could do it often with another non-shooter as well. The fact that that could work then had massive benefits on the defensive end, since you could put Draymond (one of the era’s best defensive bigs) alongside another defense-minded big (Bogut, Looney, etc.). And that is why looking at rORTG’s is not necessarily getting the full picture—with someone like Steph, a lot of the benefit of him offensively is actually being captured by the team’s defensive prowess, since they chose to put up really defensively-slanted rosters that only worked offensively in large part because of Steph.

[Onus]

Right, that's how the NBA works and basketball.

Basketball is simply set after set after set trying to get to what you want [Called getting an advantage]. Draymond is excellent at getting not just to sets quickly but the correct sets and then getting the ball to the correct players in the set to create an advantage.

You can't literally play 4v5 against Draymond because he will find the weakness and exploit it.

Teams have consistently chosen to allow Draymond to play 4v3 rather than let Steph see any daylight. He usually carves it up but when teams stymie the warriors it’s because they can guard Draymond at the rim and the dump off at the same time.

Sure, he isn't perfect, but he was a major reason the teams offense was so successful. He is an ATG passing Big with incredible BBIQ.

For the record, LeBron had terrible spacing in 2020 and won the Championship.

Oh yea Draymond is an integral part of the team. His passing does open up a lot. But put it this way. Draymond or Klay are the worst 2nd options amongst teammates of these listed players.

Terrible spacing but at least they had vertical spacing. Dray doesn’t offer that at all. Looney even worse. Zaza not it. Bogut had some vertical spacing but if he didn’t have a dunk he wouldn’t even look at the rim.

[Onus]

Also in 2020 the lakers won because ad had his best shooting playoff run. So not really terrible spacing

[OhayoKD]

Also in 2020 the lakers won because ad had his best shooting playoff run. So not really terrible spacing

The lakers were outshot from 3 over the run with Lebron as their best or 2nd best 3-point shooter(shot difficulty erneh). Ad getting hot helped, but many of the oppposing players also got hot and ultimately Lebron was generally working with a significant spacing disadvantage, something you very rarely win with in today's NBA.

Steph of course needs spacing less being the best shooter ever, but no one here has argued he wasn't the best shooter ever, so I'm not sure what your point is.

[tone wone]

Also in 2020 the lakers won because ad had his best shooting playoff run. So not really terrible spacing

Um, they shot 35% as a team (12th) on 34att (11th)

AD did shoot it well at 38% but the volume wasn't much...2.8fga 60 attempts across 21 games.

[Colbinii]

Also in 2020 the lakers won because ad had his best shooting playoff run. So not really terrible spacing

I mean...they were winning the Finals even without AD shooting THAT well.

They had terrible spacing, look up the roster.

Caruso: 24 MPG
Rondo: 24 MPG (16 Games)
Kuzma: 23 MPG
Howard: 16 MPG (18 Games)
McGee: 10 MPG (14 Games)

And Round by Round shooting:

R1: 34.3% (LeBron was a major reason here at 46% himself on 28 3PA)
R2: 37.7%
R3: 34.5%
Finals: 35.1% (LeBron 42% on 36 3PA)

But yeah, AD's < 3 3PA/G were really stretching the defense...

Y'all really do just throw soft balls.

[Colbinii]

Also in 2020 the lakers won because ad had his best shooting playoff run. So not really terrible spacing

Um, they shot 35% as a team (12th) on 34att (11th)

AD did shoot it well at 38% but the volume wasn't much...2.8fga 60 attempts across 21 games.

The Lakers 31.6 3PA/G ranked 22nd in the Regular Season.

Their percentage ranked 21st at 34.9%.

It's possible them not trying in the bubble regular season (Because they were so good in the regular season they didn't need to try ) hurt their numbers relative to the other teams, but I think you're really showing your true colors of youre planting a flag that the 2020 Lakers had good spacing.

Of course, one could argue any LeBron led team has "good spacing" since LeBron is a a GOAT tier floor mapper and can find whatever space their is with his eyes closed on any given offense possession.

[Onus]

Also in 2020 the lakers won because ad had his best shooting playoff run. So not really terrible spacing

The lakers were outshot from 3 over the run with Lebron as their best or 2nd best 3-point shooter(shot difficulty erneh). Ad getting hot helped, but many of the oppposing players also got hot and ultimately Lebron was generally working with a significant spacing disadvantage, something you very rarely win with in today's NBA.

Steph of course needs spacing less being the best shooter ever, but no one here has argued he wasn't the best shooter ever, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Um, they shot 35% as a team (12th) on 34att (11th)

AD did shoot it well at 38% but the volume wasn't much...2.8fga 60 attempts across 21 games.

I mean...they were winning the Finals even without AD shooting THAT well.

They had terrible spacing, look up the roster.

Caruso: 24 MPG
Rondo: 24 MPG (16 Games)
Kuzma: 23 MPG
Howard: 16 MPG (18 Games)
McGee: 10 MPG (14 Games)

And Round by Round shooting:

R1: 34.3% (LeBron was a major reason here at 46% himself on 28 3PA)
R2: 37.7%
R3: 34.5%
Finals: 35.1% (LeBron 42% on 36 3PA)

But yeah, AD's < 3 3PA/G were really stretching the defense...

I mean we're comparing AD and Dwight's spacing compared to Draymond Green and Kevon Looney, Bogut, Zaza's spacing. And again AD and Dwight are providing more spacing so not terrible compared to Steph's. Who is able to score more let alone provide spacing. The players Steph is playing with aren't even a rim threat.

[Colbinii]

Also in 2020 the lakers won because ad had his best shooting playoff run. So not really terrible spacing

The lakers were outshot from 3 over the run with Lebron as their best or 2nd best 3-point shooter(shot difficulty erneh). Ad getting hot helped, but many of the oppposing players also got hot and ultimately Lebron was generally working with a significant spacing disadvantage, something you very rarely win with in today's NBA.

Steph of course needs spacing less being the best shooter ever, but no one here has argued he wasn't the best shooter ever, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Um, they shot 35% as a team (12th) on 34att (11th)

AD did shoot it well at 38% but the volume wasn't much...2.8fga 60 attempts across 21 games.

I mean...they were winning the Finals even without AD shooting THAT well.

They had terrible spacing, look up the roster.

Caruso: 24 MPG
Rondo: 24 MPG (16 Games)
Kuzma: 23 MPG
Howard: 16 MPG (18 Games)
McGee: 10 MPG (14 Games)

And Round by Round shooting:

R1: 34.3% (LeBron was a major reason here at 46% himself on 28 3PA)
R2: 37.7%
R3: 34.5%
Finals: 35.1% (LeBron 42% on 36 3PA)

But yeah, AD's < 3 3PA/G were really stretching the defense...

I mean we're comparing AD and Dwight's spacing compared to Draymond Green and Kevon Looney, Bogut, Zaza's spacing. And again AD and Dwight are providing more spacing so not terrible compared to Steph's. Who is able to score more let alone provide spacing. The players Steph is playing with aren't even a rim threat.

Which year are you using here for the Warriors?

But I agree that Steph may have had less spacing. Nobody said otherwise.

I feel like you are just arguing to argue here because I said that the Lakers had terrible spacing, not that they had less spacing than the Warriors.

[Onus]

The lakers were outshot from 3 over the run with Lebron as their best or 2nd best 3-point shooter(shot difficulty erneh). Ad getting hot helped, but many of the oppposing players also got hot and ultimately Lebron was generally working with a significant spacing disadvantage, something you very rarely win with in today's NBA.

Steph of course needs spacing less being the best shooter ever, but no one here has argued he wasn't the best shooter ever, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Um, they shot 35% as a team (12th) on 34att (11th)

AD did shoot it well at 38% but the volume wasn't much...2.8fga 60 attempts across 21 games.

I mean...they were winning the Finals even without AD shooting THAT well.

They had terrible spacing, look up the roster.

Caruso: 24 MPG
Rondo: 24 MPG (16 Games)
Kuzma: 23 MPG
Howard: 16 MPG (18 Games)
McGee: 10 MPG (14 Games)

And Round by Round shooting:

R1: 34.3% (LeBron was a major reason here at 46% himself on 28 3PA)
R2: 37.7%
R3: 34.5%
Finals: 35.1% (LeBron 42% on 36 3PA)

But yeah, AD's < 3 3PA/G were really stretching the defense...

I mean we're comparing AD and Dwight's spacing compared to Draymond Green and Kevon Looney, Bogut, Zaza's spacing. And again AD and Dwight are providing more spacing so not terrible compared to Steph's. Who is able to score more let alone provide spacing. The players Steph is playing with aren't even a rim threat.

Which year are you using here for the Warriors?

But I agree that Steph may have had less spacing. Nobody said otherwise.

I feel like you are just arguing to argue here because I said that the Lakers had terrible spacing, not that they had less spacing than the Warriors.

Yea the lakers had bad spacing, but Steph deals with worse. I'm not arguing that the Lakers didn't have terrible spacing. I'm saying Steph had even worse spacing. He's also had the worst 2nd option among these players outside of the KD years.

[Colbinii]

I mean we're comparing AD and Dwight's spacing compared to Draymond Green and Kevon Looney, Bogut, Zaza's spacing. And again AD and Dwight are providing more spacing so not terrible compared to Steph's. Who is able to score more let alone provide spacing. The players Steph is playing with aren't even a rim threat.

Which year are you using here for the Warriors?

But I agree that Steph may have had less spacing. Nobody said otherwise.

I feel like you are just arguing to argue here because I said that the Lakers had terrible spacing, not that they had less spacing than the Warriors.

Yea the lakers had bad spacing, but Steph deals with worse. I'm not arguing that the Lakers didn't have terrible spacing. I'm saying Steph had even worse spacing. He's also had the worst 2nd option among these players outside of the KD years.

He also put up considerably worse results, so much so that I fail to see spacing as the major limiting factor as to why Steph was a worse offensive player than LeBron James or Magic Johnson.

But good discussion was had and we both learned something and I think it is now time to move on before talking in another circle

[Djoker]

Which year are you using here for the Warriors?

But I agree that Steph may have had less spacing. Nobody said otherwise.

I feel like you are just arguing to argue here because I said that the Lakers had terrible spacing, not that they had less spacing than the Warriors.

Yea the lakers had bad spacing, but Steph deals with worse. I'm not arguing that the Lakers didn't have terrible spacing. I'm saying Steph had even worse spacing. He's also had the worst 2nd option among these players outside of the KD years.

He also put up considerably worse results, so much so that I fail to see spacing as the major limiting factor as to why Steph was a worse offensive player than LeBron James or Magic Johnson.

But good discussion was had and we both learned something and I think it is now time to move on before talking in another circle

How did Steph have worse results? His regular season offenses reached heights that Lebron's teams never did and then in the postseason where sample sizes are smaller, while he has an overall disadvantage while playing in a stronger conference, he also led much better offenses wversus 5+ SRS teams.

In terms of individual impact stats, he's also at least competitive if not superior to Lebron since 2014-15. I remember lessthanjake posting a whole bunch of them from different sources and Curry leads Lebron more than vice versa.