Re: Rank these players offensively (peak): Magic, Jordan, LeBron, Curry, Jokic
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 9:01 pm
Peregrine01 wrote:Jokic might be the greatest screen-setter ever.
This is probably Unseld.
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Peregrine01 wrote:Jokic might be the greatest screen-setter ever.
IdolW0rm wrote:Peregrine01 wrote:Jokic might be the greatest screen-setter ever.
This is probably Unseld.
hagredionis wrote:All I know is Jordan is miles ahead of everybody else.
Colbinii wrote:hagredionis wrote:All I know is Jordan is miles ahead of everybody else.
I agree. Untouchable.
Lapping the field. Can't even see them in the rear-view.
Practically on a different race track.
Djoker wrote:To assess the resiliency of their offenses against good teams in the postseason, I looked at the data against 5+ SRS, 6+ SRS and 7+ SRS teams over their teams' best 5-year stretches and over their entire playoff careers.
Here are the best 5-year stretches for all these guys (minus Jokic) in postseason rORtg. Multiple posters put up the "Team rORtg Against All Teams" in the past to vouch for Lebron and it's easy to see why. His teams' offensive 5-year stretch looks the best of all the offensive GOAT's. However when filtering out the easy series, his team's offenses look by far the least resilient regardless of which SRS cutoff we use. Magic's offenses fall off a bit against stiffer competition as well. Jordan's improve slightly and Curry's improve the most although those 6+ and 7+ SRS numbers are heavily boosted by their total thrashing of the 2017 Kawhi-less Spurs. Lebron is a distant fourth in all the cutoffs.
Team rORtg Against All Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches
1991-1996 Michael Jordan (18 Series): +7.9
2013-2017 Lebron James (20 Series): +9.3
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (19 Series): +8.9
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (20 Series): +6.3
Team rORtg Against 5+ SRS Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches
1991-1996 Michael Jordan (9 Series): +8.2
2013-2017 Lebron James (5 Series): +4.7
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (5 Series): +7.1
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (5 Series): +7.3
Team rORtg Against 6+ SRS Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches
1991-1996 Michael Jordan (6 Series): +8.0
2013-2017 Lebron James (5 Series): +4.7
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (4 Series): +8.0
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (3 Series): +9.8
Team rORtg against 7+ SRS Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches
1991-1996 Michael Jordan (1 Series): +9.2
2013-2017 Lebron James (4 Series): +4.1
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (0 Series): N/A (no opponents of 7+ SRS)
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (3 Series): +9.8
And here are the career averages. Lebron's teams look the least resilient against 5+ and 6+ SRS teams and he looks second best after Curry for 7+ SRS opponents but the number of series is quite small with that stringent of a cut off.
Team rORtg Against 5+ SRS Teams - Career:
Michael Jordan (21 Series): +5.1
Lebron James (14 Series): +4.3
Magic Johnson (11 Series): +5.4
Stephen Curry (10 Series): +5.4
Team rORtg Against 6+ SRS Teams - Career:
Michael Jordan (13 Series): +5.9
Lebron James (12 Series): +5.5
Magic Johnson (9 Series): +5.7
Stephen Curry (6 Series): +6.7
Team rORtg Against 7+ SRS Teams - Career
Michael Jordan (4 Series): +4.9
Lebron James (7 Series): +5.5
Magic Johnson (4 Series): +2.9
Stephen Curry (5 Series): +7.8
Series-by-series data in spoiler.Spoiler:
NoParticular wrote:Djoker wrote:To assess the resiliency of their offenses against good teams in the postseason, I looked at the data against 5+ SRS, 6+ SRS and 7+ SRS teams over their teams' best 5-year stretches and over their entire playoff careers.
Here are the best 5-year stretches for all these guys (minus Jokic) in postseason rORtg. Multiple posters put up the "Team rORtg Against All Teams" in the past to vouch for Lebron and it's easy to see why. His teams' offensive 5-year stretch looks the best of all the offensive GOAT's. However when filtering out the easy series, his team's offenses look by far the least resilient regardless of which SRS cutoff we use. Magic's offenses fall off a bit against stiffer competition as well. Jordan's improve slightly and Curry's improve the most although those 6+ and 7+ SRS numbers are heavily boosted by their total thrashing of the 2017 Kawhi-less Spurs. Lebron is a distant fourth in all the cutoffs.
Team rORtg Against All Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches
1991-1996 Michael Jordan (18 Series): +7.9
2013-2017 Lebron James (20 Series): +9.3
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (19 Series): +8.9
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (20 Series): +6.3
Team rORtg Against 5+ SRS Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches
1991-1996 Michael Jordan (9 Series): +8.2
2013-2017 Lebron James (5 Series): +4.7
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (5 Series): +7.1
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (5 Series): +7.3
Team rORtg Against 6+ SRS Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches
1991-1996 Michael Jordan (6 Series): +8.0
2013-2017 Lebron James (5 Series): +4.7
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (4 Series): +8.0
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (3 Series): +9.8
Team rORtg against 7+ SRS Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches
1991-1996 Michael Jordan (1 Series): +9.2
2013-2017 Lebron James (4 Series): +4.1
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (0 Series): N/A (no opponents of 7+ SRS)
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (3 Series): +9.8
And here are the career averages. Lebron's teams look the least resilient against 5+ and 6+ SRS teams and he looks second best after Curry for 7+ SRS opponents but the number of series is quite small with that stringent of a cut off.
Team rORtg Against 5+ SRS Teams - Career:
Michael Jordan (21 Series): +5.1
Lebron James (14 Series): +4.3
Magic Johnson (11 Series): +5.4
Stephen Curry (10 Series): +5.4
Team rORtg Against 6+ SRS Teams - Career:
Michael Jordan (13 Series): +5.9
Lebron James (12 Series): +5.5
Magic Johnson (9 Series): +5.7
Stephen Curry (6 Series): +6.7
Team rORtg Against 7+ SRS Teams - Career
Michael Jordan (4 Series): +4.9
Lebron James (7 Series): +5.5
Magic Johnson (4 Series): +2.9
Stephen Curry (5 Series): +7.8
Series-by-series data in spoiler.Spoiler:
Really interesting data. What do you make of the whole debate about seperating elite defenses faced vs elite teams faced? Sorting by elite defenses only can be flawed because of so many teams being paper tigers in the playoffs and others clearly stepping it up massively, but using SRS can also be flawed because some teams can just be carried by being great offensively. Personally, it just leads to me really disliking all forms of team stats in general.
NoParticular wrote:
Really interesting data. What do you make of the whole debate about seperating elite defenses faced vs elite teams faced? Sorting by elite defenses only can be flawed because of so many teams being paper tigers in the playoffs and others clearly stepping it up massively, but using SRS can also be flawed because some teams can just be carried by being great offensively. Personally, it just leads to me really disliking all forms of team stats in general.
hagredionis wrote:All I know is Jordan is miles ahead of everybody else.
OhayoKD wrote:hagredionis wrote:All I know is Jordan is miles ahead of everybody else.
Luka over Jokic is pretty incompatible with Jordan over Lebron offensively
letskissbro wrote:Spoiler:
Warned for trolling - CF
ShotCreator wrote:letskissbro wrote:Spoiler:
Warned for trolling - CF
Jokic leads the league in touches, but is not even in the top 30 in time of possession. He has the least ball dominance of any lead playmaker in NBA history IMO. And does it while stretching the floor and actually screening a lot of his time out there..
OhayoKD wrote:ShotCreator wrote:letskissbro wrote:Spoiler:
Warned for trolling - CF
Jokic leads the league in touches, but is not even in the top 30 in time of possession. He has the least ball dominance of any lead playmaker in NBA history IMO. And does it while stretching the floor and actually screening a lot of his time out there..
"Jokic doing less makes him better because it fits my aesthetic preferences even though it doesn't lead to comparable or better offensive results"
ShotCreator wrote:OhayoKD wrote:ShotCreator wrote:Jokic leads the league in touches, but is not even in the top 30 in time of possession. He has the least ball dominance of any lead playmaker in NBA history IMO. And does it while stretching the floor and actually screening a lot of his time out there..
"Jokic doing less makes him better because it fits my aesthetic preferences even though it doesn't lead to comparable or better offensive results"
Nope. Jokic can play his entire game next to anybody else's entire game. Across the current league and any era. LeBron absolutely cannot do that.
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Jokic made lineups with Plumlee, Faried, Bruce Brown while refusing to shoot, Aaron Gordon while refusing to shoot, work to perfection.
And what offensive results? I feel this would get into nitpicking series and time periods. I'd rather nitpick skillsets. That's actually way less subject to randomness and chance
Lebronnygoat wrote:I don’t know why people keep saying LeBron is worse offensively than players he's obviously superior to
LeBron 2009-2021
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
Net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
Net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference
+12 total swing
Jokic 2022-2024
136-68 (66.7% win rate) with jokic
8-15 (34.8% win rate) without jokic
+4.1 net rating with jokic (53 win pace)
-4.6 net rating without jokic (28 win pace)
+6.5 ortg change
+8.7 overall change
Magic 1984-1991
454-149 75.3% win rate with
29-24 54.7% win rate
+7.4 net rating with (61 win pace level)
+0.2 net rating without (42 win pace level)
+4.9 ortg difference
+7.2 overall difference
Jordan 1988-1998
Bulls with MJ 490-176 (73.6% win rate)
Bulls without MJ 90-64 (58.4% win rate)
Net rating with MJ +7.7 (62 win pace level)
Net rating without MJ +3.6 (52 win pace level)
+5.1 ortg difference
+4 total swing
The most impactful offensive player ever by the facts
Redmoon wrote:1. Jokic
His combination of scoring and playmaking is untouchable. As we get more playoff runs I don't know if it will be close. He is easily one of the clutchest players I have ever seen. His ability to score at will is second to none and right there with MJ/Bron, yet he doesn't need to be ball dominant. Fluidly blending of his scoring with his playmaking and you have this monster. Its just mind boggling. If it wasn't for his defensive flaws he might run away with the number 1 peak. As the great cavalry commander Maharbal said of military genius Hannibal: "Assuredly, no man has been blessed with all God's gifts".
2. MJ
Basketball is about getting buckets and it just so happens that this dude is the greatest scorer of all time. Resume speaks for itself. The most complete perimeter player besides bron.
3. Bron
If we don't go relative to era I might swap Mj and bron but its close regardless.
4. Curry
It just seems like his scoring game is more easily taken away by defenses compared to the first 3. might be a size thing.
5. Magic
I don't think his scoring game compares with the other 4 here.
Rishkar wrote:1. Jokic
1.5. {Nash]
2. Magic
gap
3. Jordan
4. Lebron
5. Curry