RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #98 (Luka Doncic)

[Doctor MJ]

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. Nomination vote now works the same way.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):

Spoiler:

AEnigma
Ambrose
ceilng raiser
ceoofkobefans
Clyde Frazier
Colbinii
cupcakesnake
Doctor MJ
Dooley
DQuinn1575
Dr Positivity
DraymondGold
Dutchball97
f4p
falcolombardi
Fundamentals21
Gibson22
HeartBreakKid
homecourtloss
iggymcfrack
LA Bird
JimmyFromNz
Joao Saraiva
lessthanjake
Lou Fan
Moonbeam
Narigo
OhayoKD
OldSchoolNoBull
penbeast0
Rishkar
rk2023
Samurai
ShaqAttac
Taj FTW
Tim Lehrbach
trelos6
trex_8063
ty 4191
WintaSoldier1
ZeppelinPage

Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Bob Davies


Luka Doncic


Cliff Hagan


Chet Walker


James Worthy



As requested, here's the current list so far along with the historical spreadsheet of previous projects:

Current List
Historical Spreadsheet

[eminence]

Will be voting Davies/Worthy this round. Luka/Hagan have slightly better peaks, but are lacking in longevity.

[AEnigma]

VOTE: Luka Doncic
Alternate: Bob Davies
NOMINATE: Connie Hawkins

Voting for Luka because I feel he and Tatum should be close together here, even though I was pretty tepid on the merits of any player (potentially save for gatekeeper Walton) being inducted on this list without 15,000 regular season minutes played. He, Worthy, and Davies all have such radically different cases that I think any project ordering is internally justifiable among the three, but the latter two have no strong ties to any other induction the way Luka does to Tatum.

Chet I think has a moderately similar in-era profile to Worthy. Worse player in my eyes, but key part of an all-time team, and (distinct from Worthy’s case) led two conference finals teams and was potentially a basket away from making the Finals over the eventual champion. After Bob Davies’ induction, we will have covered all title winners in the “primary” league. The next closest teams without representation are the 2002 Kings (Vlade or Webber), the 1976/79 Suns (Paul Westphal, who maybe take’s Gus’s place here with a title)… and the 1975 Bulls (asterisk on Thurmond here given that he was a deeper bench piece for the playoffs). Doing that in addition to the 1967 title makes it easy to argue for Chet as the most successful star yet to be represented.

I like the Bob Dandridge shout and have previously said I think he and Chet had similarly valuable peaks/primes/careers, but for the sake of the project I prefer Chet acting as a representative for an often unheralded team. Which also applies to Beaty to a degree: since 1957, the only multi-time NBA conference finalists yet to be represented are the 1974/75 Bulls, the 1976/79 Suns, and the 1966/67/69/70 Hawks (last year was without Beaty).

With McAdoo inducted, my final three votes will almost certainly be among Luka, Davies, and Worthy. And again, while I am not one to push hard for Luka’s first five years over the full career of a player like Chet, I think the inductions of Embiid and Tatum have set a standard which I feel would be more violated by excluding Luka than by excluding Chet (who has often been excluded in these projects, whether rightly or wrongly).

Giving Connie a primary because I think he makes for a good contrast with Hagan, because I like giving him some recognition when he was overlooked slightly in the peaks project (I could see him in a range of #45 to #60), and because all these secondary votes mean nothing without at least two primary votes.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Posted this in the last thread but putting it here to to make sure it's seen:

Nomination 1:

Daniels - 1 (beast)
Chet - 3 (AEnigma, OSNB, Doc)
Gasol - 3 (falsco, Ohayo, ShaqA)
Lucas - 1 (Samurai)
Bosh - 3 (trelos, trex, eminence)
none - 1 (f4p)

This leaves us with a 3-way tie that cannot be broken by 2nd place votes.

As we talked about previously, adding too many Nominees causes problems with the Induction vote, particularly this late into the project, so we will have...

No New Nominees this round.

Actually, the tie CAN be broken. Clyde's secondary nomination vote was for Chet, and as he voted for neither Gasol nor Bosh for first place, his vote gives Chet the win:

Vote 1 - Bob McAdoo
Vote 2 - James Worthy
Nomination 1 - Carmelo Anthony
Nomination 2 - Chet Walker

Chet won the nomination fair and square and should be added to the ballot.


EDITING IN (trex_8063):

.

Just quoting AEnigma to make sure he is alerted to this development, as he was the only one who posted a vote prior to this notice.

[Doctor MJ]

Posted this in the last thread but putting it here to to make sure it's seen:

Nomination 1:

Daniels - 1 (beast)
Chet - 3 (AEnigma, OSNB, Doc)
Gasol - 3 (falsco, Ohayo, ShaqA)
Lucas - 1 (Samurai)
Bosh - 3 (trelos, trex, eminence)
none - 1 (f4p)

This leaves us with a 3-way tie that cannot be broken by 2nd place votes.

As we talked about previously, adding too many Nominees causes problems with the Induction vote, particularly this late into the project, so we will have...

No New Nominees this round.

Actually, the tie CAN be broken. Clyde's secondary nomination vote was for Chet, and as he voted for neither Gasol nor Bosh for first place, his vote gives Chet the win:

Vote 1 - Bob McAdoo
Vote 2 - James Worthy
Nomination 1 - Carmelo Anthony
Nomination 2 - Chet Walker

Chet won the nomination fair and square and should be added to the ballot.

I believe OSNB is right and I'm adding Chet to the ballot.

[eminence]

Chet will be in the running vs Worthy, will need to think about that one a bit.

[Samurai]

Vote for #98: Cliff Hagan. I think Doncic is the best player here but since the rules don't allow us to include this season, he's only played in 330 RS games. As great as he is now, that's just too much missing longevity to make up for. Next year when we can include the 24 season, I would definitely vote for him over Hagan. Never saw Hagan play live but he was a 6-time all star, led the league in OWS once, and was consistently in the top 20 in points, rebounds, and assists per game.

Alternate vote: Luka Doncic. Really wish there were another nominee to consider. As noted, I think Doncic is the best player here but just doesn't have the longevity, particularly since the rules don't allow us to consider the 23-24 season. But four consecutive years as First Team All NBA makes his current peak better IMO than the careers of the remaining nominees. If we were allowed to consider this past season, I'd be more comfortable advocating for Luka.

Nomination: Jerry Lucas. No I don't expect Luke to get much support as he didn't make the top 100 the last time either. But he's been a personal favorite of mine since I went to his summer camp so this is a personal bias vote for me. Outstanding shooter who shot for a very high percentage in his era, especially notable since he typically shot from farther out than most anyone else at that time. Twice led the league in TS% with eight total finishes in the top 20. A poor defender on the wing due to his lack of foot speed, he was a solid low post defender due to his strength and positioning, although at only 6-8 he could not stop taller elites like Wilt or Kareem. Seven finishes in the top 20 in DWS and eight times for OWS, he was named All NBA five times (3 first teams and 2 second teams). An elite rebounder, although he was a noted stat padder, he spent hours in the gym studying flight patterns and angles of shots to determine where a potential rebound is most likely to fall and used this uncanny positioning and strength to offset his lack of hops. Also a very good passer for a big in that era.

Alternate nomination: Connie Hawkins. I had been pushing Bellamy for my alternate nomination as he has far better longevity than the Hawk, but since Hawkins had at least been mentioned the past few rounds I am switching my alternate to him. Yes, part of it is the fan in me since I enjoyed watching the Hawk far more than watching Bellamy. He was an MVP (ABA) and named to the First Team three times (once in the ABA and twice in the NBA). He was a decent passer and a solid, if underrated, defender who likely would have had a better defensive rep if blocks and steals had been recorded during his prime. Probably one of the players most negatively impacted by the era he played in as I'm sure medical advancements are much better today than they were when the Hawk was playing.

[penbeast0]

vote Luka Doncic Short peak but very impressive stat line. Like Bob McAdoo but without the later career issues.

Alt vote Bob Davies: Arguable best player in league even though that league was very limited. Could just as easily vote Hagan here, similar arguments.


Nomination: Mel Daniels: Best player on a multiple championship team and a 2 time ABA MVP. It was a weak league but probably stronger than the one Bob Davies excelled in.

Most similar modern player would be Alonzo Mourning with better rebounding but without the great shotblocking. Both became greats through sheer aggression and a willingness to fight you every inch of every possession.

Alt vote: Connie Hawkins -- Another early ABA guy, Zelmo Beaty would be solid too. Short peak but pretty impressive and did more than score. He was one of the best playmaking bigs of his era and a solid defender at either forward slot.

[trelos6]

vote: Davies

Alt: Luka

nom: bosh

Davies was 4 all nba + 3 all stars. Just enough longevity to oust Doncic.

Bosh has 9 years of all star level play.

[trex_8063]

Induction vote: James Worthy
Very strong scorer, and decent(ish) defender to my memory, and the limited impact signals we have are decent: full career WOWY indicates avg of +7 wins added to a full season (based on win% difference), which is pretty good considering that's additive to teams that were already pretty good [usually] without him; and his WOWYR is +3.6 for prime [+2.6 for career].
Had some big playoff moments and would have to be declared a very solid playoff performer in a general sense (perhaps even a "riser"); and was a key piece of perennial contender in a quite competitive era (with nearly a handful of rings and one FMVP to show for it, fwiw).
Amid this field of candidates, that's enough for me to give him the nod.


Alternate vote: Chet Walker
The "Diet Paul Pierce", as I called him last thread. Nothing flashy, but another very solid scorer; superb mid-range touch with terrific instinct on the little hesitation moves: I recall so many plays where he'd just take a dribble or two into the 9-14' range, sort of pause (the defender would bite, and thus leave his feet), and then Walker would go up for the shot just as the defender was on his way down. So simple looking, yet it seems to have worked over and over and over for him.
Was also decent defensively, with decent(ish) longevity, too. Supporting cast piece on a title team early in his career. Good enough for 2nd here to me.


Nomination: CHRIS BOSH (It's time!)
I view Bob McAdoo as sort of similar to Chris Bosh (or at least see him as McAdoo's most similar(ish) modern comp): similar in length, build, and athleticism; both solid big-man shooters, primarily scorers on offense [very limited passers]; decent(ish) defensively for stretches within their careers (Bosh more so), though in somewhat different ways (McAdoo a slightly better rim protector, Bosh better pnr defender, more switchable).
I view McAdoo's peak as higher (just such a dominant scorer), but Bosh's effective longevity better.

Incidentally, I ended up crediting them with the nearly same amount of raw CORP shares (McAdoo slightly ahead in raw, though Bosh gets nudged ahead in my era-calibrated version):
Bosh I credit with peaking as only an All-NBA level, whereas McAdoo as about halfway between MVP/weak MVP.......but then I only credit McAdoo with 6 seasons where he's even above average ["Sub All-Star" or better]; whereas Bosh I credit with TWELVE seasons above average. All those seasons of solid use/value add up.
Then when considering also the tougher era and his hardware.....he seems an easy nom to me, given guys like McAdoo (to say nothing of Gus Williams,

Alternate nomination: Zelmo Beaty
There are 2-3 other non-inducted guys I'd prefer over him (LaMarcus Aldridge and Dan Issel; maybe Melo, too), but that's it. Since the other guys don't have the support, I'll go with Zelmo: the player history forgot (I recall one little video bit where Shaq expressed he'd never even heard of Beaty, which I suspect is the case for most fans and players).

I'd really like to see LaMarcus Aldridge, Issel, and Melo make the list, too; but it's already too late to get all of them in, and it seems possible that NONE of them will get the support (only one other person championing Melo, and I am the only one mentioning LMA).
On LMA (copy/paste in brief):

GOAT-tier big-man turnover economy (might be THE GOAT in this), which generally leverages his all-around offensive efficiency and production to be very similar to someone like prime Chris Bosh.
He's top 60 all-time in career rs Win Shares, despite this being a stat that doesn't really "like" his play style or box profile (because it doesn't like the very thing he's often [here] criticized for; yet still.......).
Aldridge was fairly consistently pegged somewhere between All-NBA level and fringe All-Star by impact metrics throughout his [decent length] prime. All of this in a very competitive era, fwiw.

[f4p]

Vote: Luka Doncic

Has possibly the 3 best playoff series of anybody in the nomination group (if I scale down the 1958 Finals for era concerns), and probably of almost everybody in the last 20 spots. He's just another tier up from Tatum in the playoffs and there isn't enough of a longevity difference, especially since Tatum's first couple of years weren't anything to write home about. Concerns about his impact but I didn't think those Clippers series should have gone as long as they did (and Kawhi needed an amazing Game 7 to counter Luka's Game 7) and his punking of the Suns was the kind of thing that you hardly see outside of the all-time Top 10.

[LA Bird]

Vote: Luka Doncic
Nom: Connie Hawkins

Seems like this round is down to Doncic vs Davies. While I am okay with Davies making the list as #2 behind Mikan in the late 40s, I personally wouldn't vote for him due to reasons previously outlined:

If we are looking purely at team success, the early Rochester Royals were definitely a strong dynasty. The question though is how significant of a role Davies played in that success. He had one big scoring year in 47 which saw him winning the league MVP but in the two surrounding NBL seasons, there were multiple teammates who finished above Davies in All League selections. WOWY analysis on Davies' 29 missed games in 1946-48 would be very useful but I don't think we have any game by game records from that period. We do, however, have WOWY numbers in the 16 games he missed in 1950-53 and the Royals had a +8.63 MOV while going 11-5 (three of the losses in OT including a legendary 6OT game). Obviously not a huge sample for his missed games but it seemed like the Royals were still playing at an elite level without Davies.

And then on the box score side, Davies simply doesn't look that impressive once we have more numbers from 1949 onwards. Unlike Cousy who was racking up assist titles almost every year, Davies only finished top 3 in assists per game once in his career. When the Royals won the championship in 51 with Mikan injured, it was their PF Jack Coleman not Davies who led the team in assists in the Finals (Coleman had a 14/28/8 statline in Finals G2). Davies was not a volume scorer, peaking at 16.2 ppg and he was not an elite FT shooter either, peaking at 79.5%. Davies' numbers absolutely cratered in the postseason during his last 3 seasons (18.4 PER, 0.156 WS/48 -> 8.7 PER, -0.018 WS/48) but even before that, he didn't rank that highly within the team in the playoffs (4th, 9th, 5th, 2nd in WS). For that era, I think it's hard to make the argument for Davies going above Cousy and the gap only widens if people are factoring in other "legacy" points like accolades and rings.

For nominations, Hawkins seems like an easy pick. One of the best peaks left with Penny and his longevity really wasn't that bad compared to some of the others inducted from his era (Reed, Cunningham). Half a season of overlap with Barry in the ABA where he appeared to be the better player.

[Owly]

Vote: Luka Doncic
Nom: Connie Hawkins

Seems like this round is down to Doncic vs Davies. While I am okay with Davies making the list as #2 behind Mikan in the late 40s, I personally wouldn't vote for him due to reasons previously outlined:

If we are looking purely at team success, the early Rochester Royals were definitely a strong dynasty. The question though is how significant of a role Davies played in that success. He had one big scoring year in 47 which saw him winning the league MVP but in the two surrounding NBL seasons, there were multiple teammates who finished above Davies in All League selections. WOWY analysis on Davies' 29 missed games in 1946-48 would be very useful but I don't think we have any game by game records from that period. We do, however, have WOWY numbers in the 16 games he missed in 1950-53 and the Royals had a +8.63 MOV while going 11-5 (three of the losses in OT including a legendary 6OT game). Obviously not a huge sample for his missed games but it seemed like the Royals were still playing at an elite level without Davies.

And then on the box score side, Davies simply doesn't look that impressive once we have more numbers from 1949 onwards. Unlike Cousy who was racking up assist titles almost every year, Davies only finished top 3 in assists per game once in his career. When the Royals won the championship in 51 with Mikan injured, it was their PF Jack Coleman not Davies who led the team in assists in the Finals (Coleman had a 14/28/8 statline in Finals G2). Davies was not a volume scorer, peaking at 16.2 ppg and he was not an elite FT shooter either, peaking at 79.5%. Davies' numbers absolutely cratered in the postseason during his last 3 seasons (18.4 PER, 0.156 WS/48 -> 8.7 PER, -0.018 WS/48) but even before that, he didn't rank that highly within the team in the playoffs (4th, 9th, 5th, 2nd in WS). For that era, I think it's hard to make the argument for Davies going above Cousy and the gap only widens if people are factoring in other "legacy" points like accolades and rings.

For nominations, Hawkins seems like an easy pick. One of the best peaks left with Penny and his longevity really wasn't that bad compared to some of the others inducted from his era (Reed, Cunningham). Half a season of overlap with Barry in the ABA where he appeared to be the better player.

Regarding Davies' playoff performance I will note that in the NBL his rank primacy in terms of points rose in the playoffs each year (to 2nd, 1st, 1st) with ppg taking a fair size upward jump twice (once a little down) for an average clear rise.

Very incomplete data but I would argue (to those tilting relative-playoff inclined), that larger sample is probably more significant than the "last three seasons" numbers off a 338 minute sample.

[Clyde Frazier]

Late in the game here and sorry if it's already been discussed, but what swayed Chet Walker over Hal Greer? For what it's worth I'd have them both in the top 100.

[AEnigma]

Late in the game here and sorry if it's already been discussed, but what swayed Chet Walker over Hal Greer? For what it's worth I'd have them both in the top 100.

Speaking for myself, more impressed by his peak/prime and by his results as an ostensible team leader. I also give Chet credit for more total postseasons because of Greer’s functional absence in 1962.

[trex_8063]

Vote: Luka Doncic
Nom: Connie Hawkins

Seems like this round is down to Doncic vs Davies. While I am okay with Davies making the list as #2 behind Mikan in the late 40s, I personally wouldn't vote for him due to reasons previously outlined:

If we are looking purely at team success, the early Rochester Royals were definitely a strong dynasty. The question though is how significant of a role Davies played in that success. He had one big scoring year in 47 which saw him winning the league MVP but in the two surrounding NBL seasons, there were multiple teammates who finished above Davies in All League selections. WOWY analysis on Davies' 29 missed games in 1946-48 would be very useful but I don't think we have any game by game records from that period. We do, however, have WOWY numbers in the 16 games he missed in 1950-53 and the Royals had a +8.63 MOV while going 11-5 (three of the losses in OT including a legendary 6OT game). Obviously not a huge sample for his missed games but it seemed like the Royals were still playing at an elite level without Davies.

And then on the box score side, Davies simply doesn't look that impressive once we have more numbers from 1949 onwards. Unlike Cousy who was racking up assist titles almost every year, Davies only finished top 3 in assists per game once in his career. When the Royals won the championship in 51 with Mikan injured, it was their PF Jack Coleman not Davies who led the team in assists in the Finals (Coleman had a 14/28/8 statline in Finals G2). Davies was not a volume scorer, peaking at 16.2 ppg and he was not an elite FT shooter either, peaking at 79.5%. Davies' numbers absolutely cratered in the postseason during his last 3 seasons (18.4 PER, 0.156 WS/48 -> 8.7 PER, -0.018 WS/48) but even before that, he didn't rank that highly within the team in the playoffs (4th, 9th, 5th, 2nd in WS). For that era, I think it's hard to make the argument for Davies going above Cousy and the gap only widens if people are factoring in other "legacy" points like accolades and rings.

For nominations, Hawkins seems like an easy pick. One of the best peaks left with Penny and his longevity really wasn't that bad compared to some of the others inducted from his era (Reed, Cunningham). Half a season of overlap with Barry in the ABA where he appeared to be the better player.

I submit as potentially a comparable peak to Hawkins/Penny---perhaps not relative to league environment vs Hawkins, but in an absolute sense, yes---another player who has yet to be mentioned, and who has better longevity than either: Elton Brand.

Personally, I think people overlook his '06 peak.
He averaged 24.7 ppg @ +4.4% rTS, 10.0 rpg, 2.6 apg, and only 2.2 topg, to go along with 2.5 bpg (though I think that overstates his defensive presence).

He did that for a team that won 47 games and had a +1.75 SRS, won their 1st round series, and then took the Steve Nash Suns to 7 games in the 2nd round (they actually outscored the Suns in that series).
Here was Brand's supporting cast (in descending order of minutes played) when they achieved that:
Cuttino Mobley
Sam Cassell (36 years old)
Chris Kaman
Shaun Livingston (20 years old)
Quinton Ross
Daniel Ewing
Corey Maggette
Vladamir Radmonovic
James Singleton

The 2nd-best player on the team was probably 36-year-old Sam Cassell.

In rate metrics, Brand had:
26.5 PER (6th in league, behind five guys who were all inducted in the top 30, and just ahead of another guy inducted at #80 [all were in their primes]).
.229 WS/48 (7th in league, behind six guys who were all long since inducted, and just ahead of the guy voted in #13 [in one of his peakish years])
+6.76 BPM (7th in league, behind six long-inducted players)

^^^This is all while playing 39.2 mpg [11th in the league, iirc] and missing only 3 games (as result, he moves up to 6th in WS and VORP for the year).

And it was steady-as-she-goes in the playoffs: 26.4 PER, .227 WS/48, +7.2 BPM [in a whopping 43.1 mpg].
^^That was 25.4 ppg @ +5.4% rTS, 10.3 rpg, 4.0 apg, and only 2.4 topg (and 2.6 bpg).

His +3.7 PI RAPM was 16th in the league that year.

I mean, it's a monster year. I sometimes think it doesn't get the credit it deserves.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

I submit as potentially a comparable peak to Hawkins/Penny---perhaps not relative to league environment vs Hawkins, but in an absolute sense, yes---another player who has yet to be mentioned, and who has better longevity than either: Elton Brand.

Personally, I think people overlook his '06 peak.
He averaged 24.7 ppg @ +4.4% rTS, 10.0 rpg, 2.6 apg, and only 2.2 topg, to go along with 2.5 bpg (though I think that overstates his defensive presence).

He did that for a team that won 47 games and had a +1.75 SRS, won their 1st round series, and then took the Steve Nash Suns to 7 games in the 2nd round (they actually outscored the Suns in that series).
Here was Brand's supporting cast (in descending order of minutes played) when they achieved that:
Cuttino Mobley
Sam Cassell (36 years old)
Chris Kaman
Shaun Livingston (20 years old)
Quinton Ross
Daniel Ewing
Corey Maggette
Vladamir Radmonovic
James Singleton

The 2nd-best player on the team was probably 36-year-old Sam Cassell.

In rate metrics, Brand had:
26.5 PER (6th in league, behind five guys who were all inducted in the top 30, and just ahead of another guy inducted at #80 [all were in their primes]).
.229 WS/48 (7th in league, behind six guys who were all long since inducted, and just ahead of the guy voted in #13 [in one of his peakish years])
+6.76 BPM (7th in league, behind six long-inducted players)

^^^This is all while playing 39.2 mpg [11th in the league, iirc] and missing only 3 games (as result, he moves up to 6th in WS and VORP for the year).

And it was steady-as-she-goes in the playoffs: 26.4 PER, .227 WS/48, +7.2 BPM [in a whopping 43.1 mpg].
^^That was 25.4 ppg @ +5.4% rTS, 10.3 rpg, 4.0 apg, and only 2.4 topg (and 2.6 bpg).

His +3.7 PI RAPM was 16th in the league that year.

I mean, it's a monster year. I sometimes think it doesn't get the credit it deserves.

If we're doing this, I'd submit Brad Daugherty. Viewing 1991-92 as his peak:

RS
21.5/10.4/3.6a/1.1s
.213 WS/48, 4.8 BPM
+9.8 rTS

PO
21.5/10.2/3.4a/1.0b
.190 WS/48, 4.3 BPM
-1.3% rTS from RS

on a 5.34 SRS/+5.7 Net Rtg 57 win team that went to the ECF and took two games off a legendary Bulls team.

Longevity is obviously an issue(though Brand's meaningful longevity is not much better, I don't think he was ever really the same after his achilles injury in 2007-08), but it's got to be one of the more notable peaks that hasn't been discussed.

[penbeast0]

Brand over Daugherty, better defensive player, stronger offensive peak though less consistency. He's a reasonable choice here too but at 98, probably doesn't matter much so just repping some of my favorites.

[AEnigma]

Will clarify that I am not voting Connie simply because he has a nice peak — if I were then I would also be considering Penny, Marques, Skywalker, Brandon Roy, etc. — but because I think he makes for something of a historically notable figure as the first true ABA star and merits an honourable mention at the tail end of the project. If he had been a conference finalist exit on the Pistons instead, I would not be giving him any real acknowledgment, no — much like if Beaty had stayed in the NBA and just faded into further irrelevance with the Hawks. Because when I do purer CORP lists, I end up placing players like Vlade Divac ahead, and I just do not care to push for him at #100.

[Doctor MJ]

Nom: Connie Hawkins[/b]

So, to perhaps state the obvious to folks, I can't not hop on the Hawkwagon like a Meadowlark.