2024 Nuggets: Replace Jokic w/ Peak Shaq

[Matt15]

How far do you think the Nuggets go if you replace Jokic w/ Peak Shaq?

Line-Up
G-Jamal Murray
G-Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
F-Aaron Gordon
F-Michael Porter Jr.
C-Shaquille O'Neal('00)

[tsherkin]

They probably don't beat the Lakers, IMHO.

Shaq wasn't anything like Jokic as a playmaker and his style of offense would be an issue with all its sundry limitations relative to Jokic. They are built on what Jokic can do offensively, which at no point in his career did Shaq ever actually match.

[EmpireFalls]

Win title. No, AD can’t guard Shaq 1v1.

[tsherkin]

Win title. No, AD can’t guard Shaq 1v1.

Why would he, lol. Help exists for a reason.

[ShotCreator]

It’s not getting any easier on the Lakers. Instead of stretching LA out in DHO, you run screen and rolls with Shaq, park him in the paint and dare LA to leave him single covered which would lead to a nightmare of lobs and put backs, when he isn’t sealing whoever is guarding him and getting foul draw after foul draw.

Aaron Gordon would still have have his catch and finish/put-back game because he would be doubled off of voluntarily and involuntarily. Murray’s slashing game would be just as deadly because absolutely no one is helping off Shaq, and that’s assuming they’d even want to depending on how many fouls they get.

AD is the only one with a prayer to keep Shaq off the glass and you’d really not even want your best or second best player having to deal with a guy with the highest foul draw rate in league history.

LA would be in a different version of hell. The series was actually close, who knows if they’d win. I think Jokic and Shaq are comparable on impact. In a matchup like this Shaq might be even more extreme. Jokic is not extreme anywhere on the court to me. He can exploit matchups but not to this degree. It might be a worse beating IMHO.

[Woodsanity]

Shaq won titles with Kobe and D Wade. Why do people think suddenly he is easily going to win titles with a much lesser player in Murray.

It will be a struggle to even get past the 1st round with the very mediocre production that you get from the Nuggets bench. Also Murray was only good for 1.25 games.

Role players will also suffer very badly without Jokic to set them up for easy points.

Shaq will get his 30-50 points while everyone else struggles.

[rk2023]

They’re not as good with Shaq.. A lot of the passing and spacing concepts Denver executes into set offense run because of the player and force Nikola is as an offensive centerpiece. Sure, you have a lot of 4-out 1-in possibilities with Shaq and he would warp defenses a fair share - but two different era and styles exist here for a reason.

All of this is from one who still has Shaq’s peak as > Jokic’s in an era relative sense.

[Heej]

I'm going to assume Shaq wouldn't bulk up 50lb to handle getting hacked by stiffs. If that's the case he's probably going to do significantly better in the PnR. As a roller his speed and power would be unfair against the nail and baseline help defenders tasked with rotating over in time. He was an underrated passer out of the post so he should be alright posting. He's probably going to be out of this world on the offensive glass even compared to Jokic though.

[Alatan]

It’s not getting any easier on the Lakers. Instead of stretching LA out in DHO, you run screen and rolls with Shaq, park him in the paint and dare LA to leave him single covered which would lead to a nightmare of lobs and put backs, when he isn’t sealing whoever is guarding him and getting foul draw after foul draw.

Aaron Gordon would still have have his catch and finish/put-back game because he would be doubled off of voluntarily and involuntarily. Murray’s slashing game would be just as deadly because absolutely no one is helping off Shaq, and that’s assuming they’d even want to depending on how many fouls they get.

AD is the only one with a prayer to keep Shaq off the glass and you’d really not even want your best or second best player having to deal with a guy with the highest foul draw rate in league history.

LA would be in a different version of hell. The series was actually close, who knows if they’d win. I think Jokic and Shaq are comparable on impact. In a matchup like this Shaq might be even more extreme. Jokic is not extreme anywhere on the court to me. He can exploit matchups but not to this degree. It might be a worse beating IMHO.

AG nest to Shaq would be worse than useless. You think Shaq would want to pass to AG even if he could? No way...

Everyone would pack the paint and dare AG and Murray to shoot and then wrestle with Shaq for the boards as a team. The worse is you send Shaq to the line and you live with it. Shaq would maybe average 40 against AD and Rui but 20 of those points would be from the line and the rest of the Nuggets would stand around doing jack **** as they watch Murray chuck up dumb shots.

[ShotCreator]

It’s not getting any easier on the Lakers. Instead of stretching LA out in DHO, you run screen and rolls with Shaq, park him in the paint and dare LA to leave him single covered which would lead to a nightmare of lobs and put backs, when he isn’t sealing whoever is guarding him and getting foul draw after foul draw.

Aaron Gordon would still have have his catch and finish/put-back game because he would be doubled off of voluntarily and involuntarily. Murray’s slashing game would be just as deadly because absolutely no one is helping off Shaq, and that’s assuming they’d even want to depending on how many fouls they get.

AD is the only one with a prayer to keep Shaq off the glass and you’d really not even want your best or second best player having to deal with a guy with the highest foul draw rate in league history.

LA would be in a different version of hell. The series was actually close, who knows if they’d win. I think Jokic and Shaq are comparable on impact. In a matchup like this Shaq might be even more extreme. Jokic is not extreme anywhere on the court to me. He can exploit matchups but not to this degree. It might be a worse beating IMHO.

AG nest to Shaq would be worse than useless. You think Shaq would want to pass to AG even if he could? No way...

Everyone would pack the paint and dare AG and Murray to shoot and then wrestle with Shaq for the boards as a team. The worse is you send Shaq to the line and you live with it. Shaq would maybe average 40 against AD and Rui but 20 of those points would be from the line and the rest of the Nuggets would stand around doing jack **** as they watch Murray chuck up dumb shots.

AG would feast on the glass and as a cutter. Shaq didn't just get doubled on ball, he got doubled off. Shaq had more gravity than Stephen Curry.

Shaq worked fine in the triangle next to non-shooters.

All you have to do to break a defense is park Shaq in the paint, and use AG a a screener on Murray/MPJ/KCP's man and dare them to decide if they're gonna help on the roll off Shaq or give up a wide open 3 to a shooter. AG will either feast or be respected as a threat next to Shaq. It's a pick your poison like with any ATG offensive player.


Just constant help off Shaq or help off a shooter/cutter scenarios. Shaq smashed the world next to Horace Grant, he'd be fine with AG.

[tsherkin]

Shaq had more gravity than Stephen Curry.

Not really, no.

Shaq worked fine in the triangle next to non-shooters.

He had plenty of shooters whilst playing in the triangle, what is this? He had Glen Rice, Kobe, Eddie Jones (for 20 games before the Rice trade), Derek Harper, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox and Robert Horry the first year he played in it. The Lakers had excellent spacing for the time.

[penbeast0]

Shaq had more gravity than Stephen Curry.

Not really, no.

I would agree. Steph has great gravity for an outside shooting guard and his man has to pick him up very early while everyone has to watch if he gets by but people don't leave their man to double him easily considering his range. Shaq could and did collapse whole defenses as two or three guys would try to double down on him leaving him easy open shooting looks when he didn't just bully his way through them all.

Doesn't mean Shaq was better, just better at this one thing.

[tsherkin]

I would agree. Steph has great gravity for an outside shooting guard and his man has to pick him up very early while everyone has to watch if he gets by but people don't leave their man to double him easily considering his range. Shaq could and did collapse whole defenses as two or three guys would try to double down on him leaving him easy open shooting looks when he didn't just bully his way through them all.

Doesn't mean Shaq was better, just better at this one thing.

Yeah, I mean Shaq had incredible gravity because of his high-percentage threat and everything, but you certainly didn't have to guard him from halfcourt, and he wasn't nearly as mobile as Steph in terms of cutting around screens and what have you. He tended to stay within an 8-foot bubble, give or take.

As you say, doesn't mean Shaq was better, but neither the reverse. Just that the two were the max-gravity guys of their eras. And of course Shaq might have had a comparatively "simple" game, but he parlayed his few tricks into exceptional results, for sure.

[penbeast0]

I would agree. Steph has great gravity for an outside shooting guard and his man has to pick him up very early while everyone has to watch if he gets by but people don't leave their man to double him easily considering his range. Shaq could and did collapse whole defenses as two or three guys would try to double down on him leaving him easy open shooting looks when he didn't just bully his way through them all.

Doesn't mean Shaq was better, just better at this one thing.

Yeah, I mean Shaq had incredible gravity because of his high-percentage threat and everything, but you certainly didn't have to guard him from halfcourt, and he wasn't nearly as mobile as Steph in terms of cutting around screens and what have you. He tended to stay within an 8-foot bubble, give or take.

As you say, doesn't mean Shaq was better, but neither the reverse. Just that the two were the max-gravity guys of their eras. And of course Shaq might have had a comparatively "simple" game, but he parlayed his few tricks into exceptional results, for sure.

I think of gravity as drawing players OTHER than the one guarding you out of their defensive rotation and away from their man creating openings. So having to pick up Steph earlier is a relatively small effect; having to guard him tight so far away that everyone else has to be aware of the threat of him blowing by his man is a much bigger one.

Someone made a gravity thread, I'll copy this there and we can move this discussion if you want to continue it.

[tsherkin]

I think of gravity as drawing players OTHER than the one guarding you out of their defensive rotation and away from their man creating openings. So having to pick up Steph earlier is a relatively small effect; having to guard him tight so far away that everyone else has to be aware of the threat of him blowing by his man is a much bigger one.

Someone made a gravity thread, I'll copy this there and we can move this discussion if you want to continue it.[/quote]

I'll go have look.