All Time IQ Tier List

[Heej]

Interesting discussion I had on another forum prompted me to present this list. General idea for what constitutes IQ is processing speed, playmaking, and defensive rotations. This is meant to compare some of the most intelligent players of all time so even someone in the D tier is several orders of magnitude more intelligent on-court than run of the mill NBA guys, such that I'm splitting hairs in some of these comparisons. Figured I'd throw that in there before people get too butthurt over their guy getting shafted. Some guys that are generally in the same realm but different tiers because one guy has a clear advantage on defense or offense (think Kidd vs Nash or Oscar vs West).

GOAT tier: Russell

S tier: Bird, Walton, LeBron, Joker

A tier: Oscar, Magic, Duncan, Kidd, CP, Draymond, Luka

B tier West, Isiah, Pippen, Stockton, Garnett, Nash, Wade, Hali

C tier Kareem, Rondo, Curry, Harden

D tier Jordan, Hakeem, Kobe, Noah (lol deserves recognition for 2014s 2-way showing), Dirk, KD, Shai

Interested to see what tier others place guys at.

[capfan33]

My instinct is that Garnett and Pippen should be a tier higher, but interesting topic.

[ShotCreator]

Honestly really high on Harden's brain. His help D is good without footspeed to this day. Processing speed in the lane is insane. Watch his 15 WCSF against GS. They were basically playing two centers against a Bogut/Draymond/Iguodala frontline and he diced them up with 1980's spacing. There is no way I would put Duncan's brain over Harden's. Or KG's actually. Duncan is a B tier guy to me. Harden and Garnett A tier.

[Heej]

Honestly really high on Harden's brain. His help D is good without footspeed to this day. Processing speed in the lane is insane. Watch his 15 WCSF against GS. They were basically playing two centers against a Bogut/Draymond/Iguodala frontline and he diced them up with 1980's spacing. There is no way I would put Duncan's brain over Harden's. Or KG's actually. Duncan is a B tier guy to me. Harden and Garnett A tier.

Yeah I might be underrating him because of how lackluster he was with guys backdooring him but offensively he's different. Could def see him moving up

[penbeast0]

Interesting discussion I had on another forum prompted me to present this list. General idea for what constitutes IQ is processing speed, playmaking, and defensive rotations. This is meant to compare some of the most intelligent players of all time so even someone in the D tier is several orders of magnitude more intelligent on-court than run of the mill NBA guys, such that I'm splitting hairs in some of these comparisons. Figured I'd throw that in there before people get too butthurt over their guy getting shafted. Some guys that are generally in the same realm but different tiers because one guy has a clear advantage on defense or offense (think Kidd vs Nash or Oscar vs West).

GOAT tier: Russell

S tier: Bird, Walton, LeBron, Joker

A tier: Oscar, Magic, Duncan, Kidd, CP, Draymond, Luka

B tier West, Isiah, Pippen, Stockton, Garnett, Nash, Wade, Hali

C tier Kareem, Rondo, Curry, Harden

D tier Jordan, Hakeem, Kobe, Noah (lol deserves recognition for 2014s 2-way showing), Dirk, KD, Shai

Interested to see what tier others place guys at.

Russell is reasonable but only as a defensive savant. His passing is a bit overrated.

Oscar, Kidd, and Luka rely heavily on their unusual size to bully other guards; not that they aren't brilliant but I wouldn't rate them above the likes of Stockton and Nash, in Luka's case, at least not yet.

Muggsy deserves recognition; how smart do you have to be to play at near all-star level if you are a foot shorter than the average guy you are facing and are neither a great jumper nor a great shooter.

[OhayoKD]

Interesting discussion I had on another forum prompted me to present this list. General idea for what constitutes IQ is processing speed, playmaking, and defensive rotations. This is meant to compare some of the most intelligent players of all time so even someone in the D tier is several orders of magnitude more intelligent on-court than run of the mill NBA guys, such that I'm splitting hairs in some of these comparisons. Figured I'd throw that in there before people get too butthurt over their guy getting shafted. Some guys that are generally in the same realm but different tiers because one guy has a clear advantage on defense or offense (think Kidd vs Nash or Oscar vs West).

GOAT tier: Russell

S tier: Bird, Walton, LeBron, Joker

A tier: Oscar, Magic, Duncan, Kidd, CP, Draymond, Luka

B tier West, Isiah, Pippen, Stockton, Garnett, Nash, Wade, Hali

C tier Kareem, Rondo, Curry, Harden

D tier Jordan, Hakeem, Kobe, Noah (lol deserves recognition for 2014s 2-way showing), Dirk, KD, Shai

Interested to see what tier others place guys at.

Russell is reasonable but only as a defensive savant. His passing is a bit overrated.

Oscar, Kidd, and Luka rely heavily on their unusual size to bully other guards; not that they aren't brilliant but I wouldn't rate them above the likes of Stockton and Nash, in Luka's case, at least not yet.

Muggsy deserves recognition; how smart do you have to be to play at near all-star level if you are a foot shorter than the average guy you are facing and are neither a great jumper nor a great shooter.

I'm guessing this list is era-relative in nature. Russell as an era-outlier is probably unmatched in terms of basketball intelligence.

[GSP]

Kd is an idiot w/ god level skill for his size lol

No way Steph is a tier higher Iq than a Dirk. His Iq was questionable before Kerr got there to implement his system and put Draymond in starting lineup. Steph Iq is def not as high as a Rondo no way that is asinine no offense lol

Rondo is A easily and Steph should be a tier down

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Mark Jackson shouted out a call, “42 cross,” for his team. But the play was a bluff. The Warriors didn’t have a “42 cross” in their playbook — and Rondo knew.

Per Scalabrine:

Rondo looked at Mark, and then he looked in the air and said, ’42 cross, 42 cross,’ and then he looked back at Mark and said, ‘You don’t have a 42 cross.’ I was like, ‘How the hell did he just know that?’ Somehow, some way, he knew that. And they’re not a rival. It wasn’t a playoff series. It was an insignificant game during the middle of the week. He was the smartest player I’ve ever played with and it’s not even close.

[Heej]

Kd is an idiot w/ god level skill for his size lol

No way Steph is a tier higher Iq than a Dirk. His Iq was questionable before Kerr got there to implement his system and put Draymond in starting lineup. Steph Iq is def not as high as a Rondo no way that is asinine no offense lol

Rondo is A easily and Steph should be a tier down

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Watch on YouTube

Mark Jackson shouted out a call, “42 cross,” for his team. But the play was a bluff. The Warriors didn’t have a “42 cross” in their playbook — and Rondo knew.

Per Scalabrine:

Rondo looked at Mark, and then he looked in the air and said, ’42 cross, 42 cross,’ and then he looked back at Mark and said, ‘You don’t have a 42 cross.’ I was like, ‘How the hell did he just know that?’ Somehow, some way, he knew that. And they’re not a rival. It wasn’t a playoff series. It was an insignificant game during the middle of the week. He was the smartest player I’ve ever played with and it’s not even close.

Hmm yea this is compelling stuff. Probably my biggest oversight thus far. Might have been underrating him by a large degree because I didn't like how passive his shot selection was and how many BS Rondo assists he got. But there's no argument against his game prep.

I rate Steph highly because of how he's been able to adapt to every coverage thrown at him in his career and consistently make good reads when he gets to spam PnRs. Along with being a consistent defensive rotator.

[rk2023]

Kd is an idiot w/ god level skill for his size lol

No way Steph is a tier higher Iq than a Dirk. His Iq was questionable before Kerr got there to implement his system and put Draymond in starting lineup. Steph Iq is def not as high as a Rondo no way that is asinine no offense lol

Rondo is A easily and Steph should be a tier down

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Watch on YouTube

Mark Jackson shouted out a call, “42 cross,” for his team. But the play was a bluff. The Warriors didn’t have a “42 cross” in their playbook — and Rondo knew.

Per Scalabrine:

Rondo looked at Mark, and then he looked in the air and said, ’42 cross, 42 cross,’ and then he looked back at Mark and said, ‘You don’t have a 42 cross.’ I was like, ‘How the hell did he just know that?’ Somehow, some way, he knew that. And they’re not a rival. It wasn’t a playoff series. It was an insignificant game during the middle of the week. He was the smartest player I’ve ever played with and it’s not even close.

Hmm yea this is compelling stuff. Probably my biggest oversight thus far. Might have been underrating him by a large degree because I didn't like how passive his shot selection was and how many BS Rondo assists he got. But there's no argument against his game prep.

I rate Steph highly because of how he's been able to adapt to every coverage thrown at him in his career and consistently make good reads when he gets to spam PnRs. Along with being a consistent defensive rotator.

His positioning and relocation skills on offense are out of this world too

[70sFan]

Interesting thread, I'd have to think about it more.

Curious where you'd rank Shaq and Wilt.

[penbeast0]

If we are looking at preparation and BBIQ, we should probably mention Shane Battier who studied opponent tendencies like a young Eric Spoelstra.

[70sFan]

If we are looking at preparation and BBIQ, we should probably mention Shane Battier who studied opponent tendencies like a young Eric Spoelstra.

Thurmond was known for that as well.

[The Explorer]

How is Pippen 2 tiers ahead of Jordan?
How is Jordan on the same tier as Noah and Bryant, wth?
I don't see Lebron on the same tier as Bird, at all.

[AEnigma]

How is Pippen 2 tiers ahead of Jordan?
How is Jordan on the same tier as Noah and Bryant, wth?
I don't see Lebron on the same tier as Bird, at all.

I think too many people would complain if Noah and Kobe were put ahead of Jordan and if Bird were put behind Lebron, so good move to skip the debate.

[homecourtloss]

Interesting discussion I had on another forum prompted me to present this list. General idea for what constitutes IQ is processing speed, playmaking, and defensive rotations. This is meant to compare some of the most intelligent players of all time so even someone in the D tier is several orders of magnitude more intelligent on-court than run of the mill NBA guys, such that I'm splitting hairs in some of these comparisons. Figured I'd throw that in there before people get too butthurt over their guy getting shafted. Some guys that are generally in the same realm but different tiers because one guy has a clear advantage on defense or offense (think Kidd vs Nash or Oscar vs West).

GOAT tier: Russell

S tier: Bird, Walton, LeBron, Joker

A tier: Oscar, Magic, Duncan, Kidd, CP, Draymond, Luka

B tier West, Isiah, Pippen, Stockton, Garnett, Nash, Wade, Hali

C tier Kareem, Rondo, Curry, Harden

D tier Jordan, Hakeem, Kobe, Noah (lol deserves recognition for 2014s 2-way showing), Dirk, KD, Shai

Interested to see what tier others place guys at.

Pretty good list and interesting thread idea.

I would have Curry lower and KD lower as well. I would have Hakeem lower as well based on the overall body of work though he showed much better court awareness post 1992.

Players I would have higher unless were strictly talking about ATGs:

Marc Gasol: having watched him play, he knew where to be, and he knew where opponents would be based on actions they were running. There’s a reason he was a DPOY level player without possessing some of the athletic attributes other great defenders possessed though he was a good athlete who had good size/length.

Manu Ginobli: vocal on court and seemingly always in the right spot

Nate McMillan: tremendous team defender who was one step ahead in rotations; he used to give Hakeem and the Rockets fits.

Doc Rivers: very good on court general

Walt Frazier: the more I watch the old Knicks, the more impressed I become with Walt and his overall game

[The Explorer]

How is Pippen 2 tiers ahead of Jordan?
How is Jordan on the same tier as Noah and Bryant, wth?
I don't see Lebron on the same tier as Bird, at all.

I think too many people would complain if Noah and Kobe were put ahead of Jordan and if Bird were put behind Lebron, so good move to skip the debate.

You telling people to stop discussing because you don't like their opinions needs to end. You're adding nothing to the discussion with this post.

[penbeast0]

You telling people to stop discussing because you don't like their opinions needs to end. You're adding nothing to the discussion with this post.

IF any poster is having problems with another poster, put them on ignore or contact the moderators.

[Heej]

Interesting thread, I'd have to think about it more.

Curious where you'd rank Shaq and Wilt.

My gut instinct says I would have Wilt above Shaq. Wilt in the Kareem tier and Shaq in the Kobe tier "feels" right but if presented with proper evidence I would be amenable to changing on that

If we are looking at preparation and BBIQ, we should probably mention Shane Battier who studied opponent tendencies like a young Eric Spoelstra.

Thurmond was known for that as well.

Seems overlooking preparation was a huge oversight. I was trying to limit the scope a bit more because there's clearly genius role players who made lasting careers almost entirely became they were smarter than everyone else but lacked talent otherwise. It just would be way too difficult to include all those guys. Even Noah was a gigantic stretch but I really thought that 2014 Season when he was the Bulls' defensive anchor AND main playmaker earning himself a top 3 MVP vote was an otherworldly display of BBIQ for someone who lacked greatly in talent

How is Pippen 2 tiers ahead of Jordan?
How is Jordan on the same tier as Noah and Bryant, wth?
I don't see Lebron on the same tier as Bird, at all.

Pippen was the main defensive communicator (Phil referred to him as the Bulls' middle linebacker) and their main offensive playcaller. Jordan had some pretty serious flaws in his IQ but made up for it with sheer motor and athleticism. A giga-Westbrook in many senses, sharing many of the same flaws as well.

LeBron imo was a better on defensive rotations than Bird, and both shared the same fatal flaw of ball watching. Bird I think had better processing speed but if we're factoring in preparation, which was an oversight on my part in not doing so initially, then LeBron is very easily on par with Bird.

[Heej]

Interesting discussion I had on another forum prompted me to present this list. General idea for what constitutes IQ is processing speed, playmaking, and defensive rotations. This is meant to compare some of the most intelligent players of all time so even someone in the D tier is several orders of magnitude more intelligent on-court than run of the mill NBA guys, such that I'm splitting hairs in some of these comparisons. Figured I'd throw that in there before people get too butthurt over their guy getting shafted. Some guys that are generally in the same realm but different tiers because one guy has a clear advantage on defense or offense (think Kidd vs Nash or Oscar vs West).

GOAT tier: Russell

S tier: Bird, Walton, LeBron, Joker

A tier: Oscar, Magic, Duncan, Kidd, CP, Draymond, Luka

B tier West, Isiah, Pippen, Stockton, Garnett, Nash, Wade, Hali

C tier Kareem, Rondo, Curry, Harden

D tier Jordan, Hakeem, Kobe, Noah (lol deserves recognition for 2014s 2-way showing), Dirk, KD, Shai

Interested to see what tier others place guys at.

Pretty good list and interesting thread idea.

I would have Curry lower and KD lower as well. I would have Hakeem lower as well based on the overall body of work though he showed much better court awareness post 1992.

Players I would have higher unless were strictly talking about ATGs:

Marc Gasol: having watched him play, he knew where to be, and he knew where opponents would be based on actions they were running. There’s a reason he was a DPOY level player without possessing some of the athletic attributes other great defenders possessed though he was a good athlete who had good size/length.

Manu Ginobli: vocal on court and seemingly always in the right spot

Nate McMillan: tremendous team defender who was one step ahead in rotations; he used to give Hakeem and the Rockets fits.

Doc Rivers: very good on court general

Walt Frazier: the more I watch the old Knicks, the more impressed I become with Walt and his overall game

Honestly these are all great shouts. Gasol, Ginobili, and Frazier in particular move me as mentions. The problem with Gasol is I'm not sure his peak is as high as the worst guy on the list which is either Rondo or Noah, and those guys were my personal cutoffs. But that of course is absolutely arbitrary anyway, but I do think it's necessary otherwise there's too many genius role players like Battier or McMillan to feasibly name and rank. IQ wise I'd think it's pretty reasonable to put all 3 of them in the Kareem/Rondo/Curry/Harden tier.

[tsherkin]

Worth a mention of Jerry Lucas, if only for his absurd faculty of memory. Dude had a good brain for ball.