Gravity: Top 5 of All-Time?

[Matt15]

In terms of gravity only on the court who are your top 5 players of all-time?

[penbeast0]

Wilt and Shaq would be my top 2 in some kind of order. After that it gets closer as you have other traditional post scorers like Kareem, drive and dish guys who would draw a crowd like Nate Archibald or Allen Iverson, guys like Curry who bend a defense out away from the basket, etc.

From other thread:

I would agree. Steph has great gravity for an outside shooting guard and his man has to pick him up very early while everyone has to watch if he gets by but people don't leave their man to double him easily considering his range. Shaq could and did collapse whole defenses as two or three guys would try to double down on him leaving him easy open shooting looks when he didn't just bully his way through them all.

Doesn't mean Shaq was better, just better at this one thing.

Yeah, I mean Shaq had incredible gravity because of his high-percentage threat and everything, but you certainly didn't have to guard him from halfcourt, and he wasn't nearly as mobile as Steph in terms of cutting around screens and what have you. He tended to stay within an 8-foot bubble, give or take.

As you say, doesn't mean Shaq was better, but neither the reverse. Just that the two were the max-gravity guys of their eras. And of course Shaq might have had a comparatively "simple" game, but he parlayed his few tricks into exceptional results, for sure.

I think of gravity as drawing players OTHER than the one guarding you out of their defensive rotation and away from their man creating openings. So having to pick up Steph earlier is a relatively small effect; having to guard him tight so far away that everyone else has to be aware of the threat of him blowing by his man is a much bigger one.

Someone made a gravity thread, I'll copy this there and we can move this discussion if you want to continue it.

[lessthanjake]

In terms of how far opposing players are being drawn away from their normal defensive assignment, the answer is probably Shaq. But the thing with a shooter’s gravity (most prominently Steph) is that they’re drawing defenders *away* from the basket, and that’s more valuable than drawing them towards the basket. The best shot in basketball is at the basket, so if your gravity draws opponents away from the basket, then it’s better than gravity that draws more defenders towards the basket, because the gravity is creating space for teammates in a more valuable area.

[tsherkin]

I think of gravity as drawing players OTHER than the one guarding you out of their defensive rotation and away from their man creating openings. So having to pick up Steph earlier is a relatively small effect; having to guard him tight so far away that everyone else has to be aware of the threat of him blowing by his man is a much bigger one.

I am disinclined to agree with that definition. Individual gravity from shooting ability has been a critical element for decades. Steph forcing you to consider him an additional 20+ feet from the basket is a whole other situation. And then he still warps a whole defense beyond just his initial defender, unless you want to concede a series of money shots from him with your rotations. I do agree that worrying about him getting past the initial defender is a consequential element as well, though.

[Outside]

The thing about prime Steph's gravity is that he exerted it both on- and off-ball, and when off-ball, through his tremendous movement. The big guys also had some off-ball gravity, but not nearly as much as Curry, and certainly not through movement like Curry, who drew the focus of multiple defenders as he moved around the court throughout a possession and used or set screens.

[OhayoKD]

In terms of gravity only on the court who are your top 5 players of all-time?

Idk how they rank but I'd say the best gravity people

-> overwhelming interior presences (shaq, wilt)

-> all-time deep shooters who can cut and play on-ball well (steph, lillard)

-> ball-handlers who can overwhelm inside (Jokic, lebron, giannis)

People who score a bunch in mid-range, are reliant on going around defenders to get inside, or take open threes don't produce the same space for teammates and consequently their "creations" and "assists" tend to be less valuable. The flip-side is ball-handlers tend to draw alot of defensive attention and ball-handlers tend not to be great inside. So players like Magic and Lebron get a big boost from being able to do both.

[OhayoKD]

The thing about prime Steph's gravity is that he exerted it both on- and off-ball, and when off-ball, through his tremendous movement. The big guys also had some off-ball gravity, but not nearly as much as Curry, and certainly not through movement like Curry, who drew the focus of multiple defenders as he moved around the court throughout a possession and used or set screens.

Steph is the only volume off-ball creator in league history. People try to make Bird out as a peer but he doesn't even offer a real spacing advantage relative to the likes of a lebron. People also try to make Lillard out as a peer, but he doesn't move off ball enough to actually draw defenders like curry does.

That said, Curry is still way more valuable on-ball and his on-ball plays take out more defenders than his off-ball ones do.

[70sFan]

As always, Kareem is a must-have in this conversation and somehow nobody ever mention him...

[penbeast0]

As always, Kareem is a must-have in this conversation and somehow nobody ever mention him...

I put him below Shaq and Wilt partially because of his strengths. He worked farther away from the basket and, when younger, with more movement and from more different spots so defenses didn't collapse on him to the same degree. It made him a greater scorer than either but with a bit less gravity according to the definition I gave above.

[tsherkin]

As always, Kareem is a must-have in this conversation and somehow nobody ever mention him...

It's a good mention to at least have him in the discussion.

I also understand where penbeast is coming from, in terms of how his spacing didn't affect things quite as much as with Shaq/Wilt because he was higher up the key or further out along the baseline, so he wasn't sucking in defenders quite as far away from the perimeter guys. Still, you had to get up in him or he'd absolutely murder the beans out of you, plus he was a good and willing passer.

[Owly]

I think it's hard to say and debate meaningfully unless/until there's a consensus on what is meant by gravity.

Already discussed here is a greater value in pulling people away from the basket than closer to it. So a notion of raw pull versus value derived from pull.

In terms of "pull" a poor and/or reluctant passer, who shoots at volume and takes a lot of time to make decisions/moves will see more doubles etc and show more of that "pull" gravity than a willing, able, decisive (though sometimes patient) passer.

If (probably with a simple "pull" definition) gravity is, or is dictated by, fear of advantage creation by "normal" coverage, skilled passers (and obviously teammate context is important here) perhaps exert an inverted gravity or gravity for teammates and potentially dangerous spaces.

[70sFan]

As always, Kareem is a must-have in this conversation and somehow nobody ever mention him...

I put him below Shaq and Wilt partially because of his strengths. He worked farther away from the basket and, when younger, with more movement and from more different spots so defenses didn't collapse on him to the same degree. It made him a greater scorer than either but with a bit less gravity according to the definition I gave above.

Even with that in mind, his influence on defenses faced was staggering and I made one post about it a few years ago:

About Shaq's gravity - this one is a massive game changer, but I wonder how much different it was compared to Kareem. I mean, this is how Kareem was guarded in 1977 playoffs:

Spoiler:

This are not highly selected screens - I picked them from one quarter of game 3 vs Warriors. Kareem absorbed ridiculous amount of defensive attention and he had a harder time beating it without the three point line.

[tsherkin]

As always, Kareem is a must-have in this conversation and somehow nobody ever mention him...

I put him below Shaq and Wilt partially because of his strengths. He worked farther away from the basket and, when younger, with more movement and from more different spots so defenses didn't collapse on him to the same degree. It made him a greater scorer than either but with a bit less gravity according to the definition I gave above.

Even with that in mind, his influence on defenses faced was staggering and I made one post about it a few years ago:

About Shaq's gravity - this one is a massive game changer, but I wonder how much different it was compared to Kareem. I mean, this is how Kareem was guarded in 1977 playoffs:

Spoiler:

This are not highly selected screens - I picked them from one quarter of game 3 vs Warriors. Kareem absorbed ridiculous amount of defensive attention and he had a harder time beating it without the three point line.

Nice, thanks for the stills, 70sfan!

[Texas Chuck]

As always, Kareem is a must-have in this conversation and somehow nobody ever mention him...

And also as always it shouldn't require a Dirk homer like me to bring him up. He was breaking defenses in his late 30's still with his gravity. Forget him in his prime....

[tsherkin]

As always, Kareem is a must-have in this conversation and somehow nobody ever mention him...

And also as always it shouldn't require a Dirk homer like me to bring him up. He was breaking defenses in his late 30's still with his gravity. Forget him in his prime....

He is another excellent mention!

[McBubbles]

As always, Kareem is a must-have in this conversation and somehow nobody ever mention him...

Kareem was mentioned in the first post

[EmpireFalls]

Klay Thompson deserves a mention.

[penbeast0]

Klay Thompson deserves a mention.

AS top 5 of all time? Or even top 10? I don't see it. Of course I tend to favor the bigs who draw a crowd as you can see from my discussion with Tsherkin but even among wings, I don't see him up there with Curry, Jordan, Kobe, Oscar, even Reggie.

[OhayoKD]

Klay Thompson deserves a mention.

no

[Special_Puppy]

Dame and Luka are extremely underrated candidates. Absolutely absurd on-ball gravity