Ok, NOW: Tmac OR Pierce on the all-time

Ballings7 · Post #16 » by **Ballings7** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:08 pm

Still Paul Pierce

meatball sub · Post #17 » by **meatball sub** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:50 pm

You guys forgot to factor in durability and defense. Sorry but this debate is OVER, Pierce just played some of the best ball of his career on the biggest stage and came out on top. McGrady still has yet to get within two rounds of the biggest stage. I've been tired of this comparison for 3-4 years and I can't believe people still think Tmac is better. Pierce has the most versatile offensive game of any wing in the NBA and this year he has become an exceptional defender to boot. Numbers are not everything and to prove that just look at the other half of this debate.

Oh, plus Pierce stayed loyal to his franchise and didn't demand a trade and has reaped the benefits. So Pierce wins the judgment category too.

The Explorer · Post #18 » by **The Explorer** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:20 pm

I don't think Pierce is that far off from Kobe.

Tmac is far, far behind.

TheSheriff · Post #19 » by **TheSheriff** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:49 pm

Yes, T-mac would have gotten out of the first round this year with KG and Ray. But by the same token Pierce would have gotten out of the first round in years past with Ming.

Pierce has never gotten the credit he deserved until probably game seven of the Cleveland Series when he kept pace with Lebron. Even this year he should have been second team all-NBA. Now he will finally get some recognition after outplaying Kobe for six games (actually 8 if you count the two regular season meetings).

War3player · Post #20 » by **War3player** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:27 pm

Datruth345 wrote:its interesting how pierces numbers are slightly better across the board, but T-mac has alot more individual awards and merits

hype kills

Those are career numbers and obviously McGrady's first few years as a bench warmer in Toronto is going to affect the numbers.

Post #21 » by **TMACFORMVP** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:24 am

Pierce's chip and Finals MVP definitely gives him the nod career wise. McGrady's achievements as an individual player aren't enough to overcome that type of accomplishment especially when their careers even before were relatively comparable.

Alex_De_Large · Post #22 » by **Alex_De_Large** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:03 pm

TheSheriff wrote:Yes, T-mac would have gotten out of the first round this year with KG and Ray. But by the same token Pierce would have gotten out of the first round in years past with Ming.

when? in 2005 when the rockets were robbed and tmac was the best player in the world? or in 2007 where yao choked big time with the rebounds?

jzmagik · Post #23 » by **jzmagik** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:47 pm

bove310 wrote:You guys forgot to factor in durability and defense. Sorry but this debate is OVER, Pierce just played some of the best ball of his career on the biggest stage and came out on top. McGrady still has yet to get within two rounds of the biggest stage. I've been tired of this comparison for 3-4 years and I can't believe people still think Tmac is better. Pierce has the most versatile offensive game of any wing in the NBA and this year he has become an exceptional defender to boot. Numbers are not everything and to prove that just look at the other half of this debate.

Oh, plus Pierce stayed loyal to his franchise and didn't demand a trade and has reaped the benefits. So Pierce wins the judgment category too.

Numbers proved that Tmac was the more talented player in his peak, it's fine if you don't want to accept that but that's the general consensus here. Also keep in mind Pierce KG And Allen were all career losers until they banded together.

tmac4real · Post #24 » by **tmac4real** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:56 pm

no kidding how people forget that Pierce used to be a nobody, literally a nobody before this year. When I say taht I mean people knew who he was, but didn't really care about him. Ok Paul Pierce, scores 20 ppg on a sucky team, big f'ing deal.

The guy hasn't EVER come top 10 in MVP voting once, not even once. His highest is 11.

McGardy has finished top 10 in MVP voting, SIX times. That says it all right there.

Pierce has not even passed All NBA 3rd team, he hasn't even amde it passed that!

You want to say these Finals performacnes had Pierce pass Tmac, fine, but don't come out spewing out nonsense that this was not a comparison 3-4 years ago. He won a championship good for him, but dont ues this as an opportunity to change and rewrite history and make PIerce seem to be a player he was NOT 3-4 years ago.

Baller 24 · Post #25 » by **Baller 24** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:03 pm

jzmagik wrote:
bove310 wrote:You guys forgot to factor in durability and defense. Sorry but this debate is OVER, Pierce just played some of the best ball of his career on the biggest stage and came out on top. McGrady still has yet to get within two rounds of the biggest stage. I've been tired of this comparison for 3-4 years and I can't believe people still think Tmac is better. Pierce has the most versatile offensive game of any wing in the NBA and this year he has become an exceptional defender to boot. Numbers are not everything and to prove that just look at the other half of this debate.

Oh, plus Pierce stayed loyal to his franchise and didn't demand a trade and has reaped the benefits. So Pierce wins the judgment category too.

Numbers proved that Tmac was the more talented player in his peak, it's fine if you don't want to accept that but that's the general consensus here. Also keep in mind Pierce KG And Allen were all career losers until they banded together.

Also like to add to this that, this is actually the first season Pierce as excelled in defense. The Celtics current assistant head defensive coach was the Rockets assistant coach for the past 3 years. McGrady over his career as an overall player has been the better defender, scorer, rebounder, and playmaker, basically did everything and anything better then Pierce. And earlier I wasn't using just stats to prove this statement. Note, in my first post in this thread I talked about the impact, McGrady's impact > Pierce. McGrady in his worse season makes the all nba 3rd team while Pierce can't even make the first in his best seasons. Also like to add again can Pierce this years Rockets to the 2nd round? sorry, can he even make the playoffs without Yao? How about win 50 games without Yao for two straight seasons?

If im not mistaken I think it was the Magic's GM's fault that McGrady demanded the trade. The GM told McGrady, "**** off, I don't like your attitude". Do you think Pierce would ask to be traded if Ainge came up to him and told him to "**** off" ? I'd say he would...please cut the loyal bull crap out of this.

And to the people who want to talk about playoff campaigns with McGrady...
KG 0-7 first 7 years in the playoffs
Currently McGrady....0-7, 7 years in the playoffs

Post #26 » by **Harry Palmer** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:55 pm

I find it exceptionally odd that people are using Paul Pierce of all people to try and prove some point about how certain players are unable to get their teams to succeed in the playoffs because of their own personal failing, as opposed to their surrounding talent.

Wouldn't this year, of all years, sort of silence that silliness?

Post #27 » by **fanofthegreats** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:37 pm

bove310 wrote:You guys forgot to factor in durability and defense. Sorry but this debate is OVER, Pierce just played some of the best ball of his career on the biggest stage and came out on top. McGrady still has yet to get within two rounds of the biggest stage. I've been tired of this comparison for 3-4 years and I can't believe people still think Tmac is better. Pierce has the most versatile offensive game of any wing in the NBA and this year he has become an exceptional defender to boot. Numbers are not everything and to prove that just look at the other half of this debate.

Oh, plus Pierce stayed loyal to his franchise and didn't demand a trade and has reaped the benefits. So Pierce wins the judgment category too.

Um.. no?

King, Kobe are two obvious ones. A big distance and then maybe after them, maybe..

wigglestrue · Post #28 » by **wigglestrue** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:57 pm

I think Pierce has joined TMac's class, all-time-wise, which to me means that he's now a HOF lock. What a special championship and Finals MVP can do for a 10+ year career of admirably filling the stat sheets and making a couple of memorable playoff runs! One-on-one, going by the regular season only, stats and accolades only, I think TMac still has an edge.

magicfan4life05 · Post #29 » by **magicfan4life05** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:06 pm

Harry Palmer wrote:I find it exceptionally odd that people are using Paul Pierce of all people to try and prove some point about how certain players are unable to get their teams to succeed in the playoffs because of their own personal failing, as opposed to their surrounding talent.

Wouldn't this year, of all years, sort of silence that silliness?

Interesting, good point.

Alex_De_Large · Post #30 » by **Alex_De_Large** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:59 am

True.

kooldude · Post #31 » by **kooldude** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:46 am

Harry Palmer wrote:I find it exceptionally odd that people are using Paul Pierce of all people to try and prove some point about how certain players are unable to get their teams to succeed in the playoffs because of their own personal failing, as opposed to their surrounding talent.

Wouldn't this year, of all years, sort of silence that silliness?

haha owned!

Triple M · Post #32 » by **Triple M** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:04 am

If we are talking about all time list I would assume you are looking at a players entire career and not just peak or whether that player was more durable, played in a different situation, ect. If there numbers remain as even as they are now People will remember Pierce as being the greater player fair or not that Finals MVP/Championship will be factor heavily in Paul's favor over top 10 finishes in the mvp race. At the end this is something that will decided 10 years from now when we can view things in full scope. I have to admit I am bias with Pierce I love his consistency, durability and toughness that allows him to be in the same ballpark with player who are probably more talented then him.

celticfan42487 · Post #33 » by **celticfan42487** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:38 pm

Pierce wasn't a nobody, Pierce wasn't considered a sleve.

he just was on bad teams after his 01-02 ECF run with Walker.

If you can remeber back 7 years, when Pierce has been put on the big stage he has delivered. When people have watched Pierce in the playoff runs they comment on his very good defense.

All people trying to use hype to discredit Pierce are forgeting Pierce was considered one of the top wings with McGrady and Kobe after he lead his team to the ECF.

if McGrady goes to a bad team he will soon find himself in Pierce's shoes. If he goes to a great team he will soon find himself in Kobe's shoes.

But as of now, Pierce's durability and ability to get free throws (wich is a pivotal advantage for his team in the playoffs that is constantly underated) has lead him to lead a team with Walker further then T-Mac's Eastern Confrence team of ORL or with his injury team in HOU.

Pierce is 31, McGrady is 29. If Pierce wins another ring he may seal this argument as the winner between these two.

However it seems highly unlikely that the basketball gods would leave Mcgrady, still only 29, without a ring before his carrer is over.

etopn23 · Post #34 » by **etopn23** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:04 pm

^^ Lol.

Pierce at his peak was never considered to be on the level of McGrady or Kobe at their respective peaks (outside of Boston). Hell, most didn't consider him on the level of Vince Carter.

The only advantage Pierce has against McGrady is the finals MVP (one in which he didn't dominate statistically - he had great teammates who arguably had the same impact on the floor as him). McGrady is superior as far as individual accolades and stats are concerned.

The fact that an injured McGrady (who had two surgeries this offseason to repair his knee) in one of the worst playoff performances (statistically) of his career still put up numbers rivaling Pierce's career playoff highs should give you an idea of how skewed this comparison is.

Baller 24 · Post #35 » by **Baller 24** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:13 am

celticfan42487 wrote:if McGrady goes to a bad team he will soon find himself in Pierce's shoes. If he goes to a great team he will soon find himself in Kobe's shoes.

McGrady has been part of a bad team basically his entire career. Besides his last couple of years with the Rockets. McGrady in Orlando had a team that I Pierce couldn't take to the playoffs on his own. I'm going to say the same thing to you which I said to the others..Pierce has never been considered a top 10 MVP candidate...while McGrady even in his worse season gets 8th...again 6 times in the past 8 yrs hes been an MVP candidate. His impact on the team is greater then Pierce, much greater like I said winning percentage for the Rockets over 62% in games he plays while in games he doesn't only 23%. Just because the guy wins a ring doesn't put him over the top...Cowens played better then Kareem and played in one of the greatest finals ever, but should Cowens be ranked higher...Kareem only won 2 Finals MVPs out of 6 championships. Its just stupid how people are putting it that way, no one in NBA history I can guarantee you no player is ranked higher then a player that wasn't on the same level achievement wise just because of a NBA finals MVP. McGrady also in his worse season makes the all nba 3rd team. While Pierce can't go any higher then 2nd team and can't do it more then what 2-3 times? while McGrady in his best seasons NOT MAKING THE FINALS OR ECF makes the all NBA 1st team, TWICE. Pierce has been the the ECF and Finals, yet still can't make any higher then 2nd.