Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA

[Malinhion]

He definitely has the potential to be a top-10 PG. I would be surprised if he did not eventually make it there. His defensive skills are too strong, too early in his career for him to really bust. Even if his shot doesn't pan out or his playmaking doesn't get better, he'l have the defensive prowess to at least be a rotation player. With a little bit of development he could go a long way. Especially since he's already got the title experience.

[CBS7]

Jarrett Jack averaged 12/5/3 with solid defense in his 2nd year. Boy he's sure ripping up that ASG!

1 - He did that in 33.6 minutes per game, as opposed to 30. 2 - How in the hell was his defense "solid", let alone even close to being as good as Rondo's to be worth mentioning? It wasn't, is how. 3 - Per 36 their numbers look like this -- 12.8/2.8/5.7/1.2 vs. 12.7/5.0/6.1/2.0 -- with Jack playing for a 32 win team and Rondo playing for a 66 win team. Pretty obvious. 4 - When did Jack average something like 10.2 pts, 4.1 reb, 6.6 ast, and 1.7 stl in 26 games during the NBA playoffs? Oh right, he didn't.

Fun with basketball-reference.com, for a zany perspective...How many players in recorded history (regardless of position) have averaged 4 rebounds, 5 assists, 1.7 steals, and 49% or better in a single season? http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/ ... i?id=mFA3J Where are all the scrubs that are supposed to have put up similar numbers? Turns out there are only 20 or so players in the last 30-35 years who've put up that measly line or better. And let's not even talk about per 36. How many players have averaged (per 36) 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 steals, and 49% or better in a single season? http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/ ... i?id=CvWeq That's some pretty nice company. How many players have averaged (per 36) that same line more or less (5/6/2/46%) in their careers? Two. Jerry West and, so far, Rajon Rondo.

Wigglestrue, I think what people are trying to say is because DJ and Parker followed that path doesn't necessarily guarantee Rondo will.

By the way, this thread is close to getting locked.

[celticfan42487]

Don't hate on Wiggs. He's as big a Rondo homer as I'm a Pierce one.

that said, I was completely dissapointed and unimpressed with Rondo's NBA and EC Finals. As with Perk wich hurt a lot as they were supposed to step it up and instead seemed to regress in the playoffs.

Rondo was little more then a gambeler, he routinely went for the home run and routinely failed. He really killed the defense trying to steal anything near him wich wound up with his man getting a wide open jumper 85% of the time he gambled.

Then on offense..my god that was horrible. I'm glad though he had great handles and recognized that he just had to get the ball out of his hands and into one of the three all-stars on his team.

that said in the regular season he'll break top 15, and hopefully he'll learn a lot from his experience and learn to play actual defense... not just jump around for every pass and leave your man open for jumpers. Rondo had a good blend in the regular season with this.. he'll always take chances because he's a theif but my god sometimes you just have to man up.

he has the potential to develop into one of the top 10 starting PGs in the league. As of now he's a very long ways away. Being consistent from midrange would do wonders for him. In fact if he was consistent from there and his defender actually had to play Rondo offensively I'd say that shoot him up to top 10 almost.

[wigglestrue]

Okay so how is it that someone earlier jumped on me for the reference to DJ and Parker as if I were saying "Because player A's stats are similar to player G's and player X's stats, player A is necessarily going to become just like players G and X"? Because from what I remember, I dropped those two names in the first place to counter the bogus notion that because his per game stats weren't eye-popping, then his performance was necessarily mediocre. I didn't propose the comparison as some kind of equation, like Rondo = DJ and Parker. I proposed it as a logical correction to a faulty assumption. But then of course this is RealGM and nothing gets corrected, and instead I get jumped on by the same faulty assumer for making an assumption I wasn't making. This kind of stuff drives me up a ******* wall:

"You're impressed by 10/4/5/2 from a guy playing with multiple stars? 11/4/7/2 in the playoffs? Pfft."
"Yes, I am, and those numbers aren't necessarily bad, look at DJ and Parker in the same situation."
"OMG, you're saying Rondo is destined to be DJ and Parker just because his stat line was similar? Ha!"

The point about DJ and Parker is: Where the hell were these doubters back in June of 2003 and 2005? Were they as diligent about not letting Tony Parker into a consensus top 10 discussion? Based on how they're treating Rondo, surely they were just as unimpressed by Tony Parker. If they weren't, then bringing up the surface underwhelmingness of Rondo's stat line is bogus, period -- and once countered by me with simple logic (and with proof that his stat line wasn't something frequently put up by scrubs and stars alike), then their bogus point and its illogical mutant offspring should be strongly discouraged from being brought up again in the thread, because repeating that crap over and over is willful interference with a discussion. And sorry, but...How is it that you even felt the need to "explain" what they were trying to say to me? Are you following the thread???

[The Main Event]

I smell a lock coming on pal.

[The Main Event]

i agree with Wiggles' argument i just think that most people don't agree with HOW he's saying it. There's no denying that Rondo has got amazing potential and i don't think that anyone will deny that it is a very likely possibility that he could develop into a top 10 pg.
I personally dont think that he is top 10 as of righ now but i do feel that by winning a title his confidence will be greatly increased and he will develop his game more quickly.
I foresee Rondo developing into a hybrid between Monta Ellis and Billups.

[NetsForce]

Rondo wasn't even a major factor in the Celtics championship (don't even get me started on the Hawks series, Bibby has sucked the past 2-3 years now), if anything he was the Celtics weakest link, and his flaws became even more evident...

[UGA Hayes]

I do think Tony Parker is an apt comparison. During his similar initial championship run, he was pretty up and down mixing brilliance with complete dissappearing acts. Following a final in which he played the nets national pundits were scoffing at the idea that you wouldn't trade Kidd for Parker in a heartbeat. People are very shortsighted about these things. Lets not forget that Nash and Billups were afterthoughts by the end of their second year of the league. The peanut gallery is especially harsh on guys who don't get picked early. Its a weird pehnomenon but it exists. Does anyone really think rondo's star isn't going to rise. You can argue its not fair he is on a great team, but thats the way it goes sometimes. You can't shine if you aren't in the spotlight.

[The Main Event]

I do think Tony Parker is an apt comparison. During his similar initial championship run, he was pretty up and down mixing brilliance with complete dissappearing acts. Following a final in which he played the nets national pundits were scoffing at the idea that you wouldn't trade Kidd for Parker in a heartbeat. People are very shortsighted about these things. Lets not forget that Nash and Billups were afterthoughts by the end of their second year of the league. The peanut gallery is especially harsh on guys who don't get picked early. Its a weird pehnomenon but it exists. Does anyone really think rondo's star isn't going to rise. You can argue its not fair he is on a great team, but thats the way it goes sometimes. You can't shine if you aren't in the spotlight.

True, but using the same logic one can also assume that when their are big tree's all around the little tree won't get as much light. However; i completely agree that the environment that Rondo is in will only serve to maximize his potential as a PG. As i mentioned before, given his stature i could see him becoming a hybrid between Billups and Monta Ellis. A very strong defender with lightning quick speed to break down defenders and attack the bucket.

[Basileus777]

Rondo has a long way to go to become a Monta Ellis or Tony Parker type finisher. It might happen, but I don't see any reason to expect it.

[The Main Event]

Rondo has a long way to go to become a Monta Ellis or Tony Parker type finisher. It might happen, but I don't see any reason to expect it.

Dude,

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bhHcm3oOKYw

That doesn't have like Tony Parker quickness with Monta finish written all over it? Not to mention that given his stature he will most likely become as strong if not stronger than Billups.
It's these flashes of greatness that lead me to believe that once he can consistently utilize his skill set with a more developed b-ball IQ and confidence, he will become a great pg.

[wigglestrue]

Rondo wasn't even a major factor in the Celtics championship (don't even get me started on the Hawks series, Bibby has sucked the past 2-3 years now), if anything he was the Celtics weakest link, and his flaws became even more evident...

Yeah, okay, so...

- whatever he did in the Atlanta series is invalid...convenient.
- wasn't a major factor, was the weakest link, flaws became more evident.

Hmmm, let's see...shall we take a look at some critical games he was a major factor in?

Atlanta series

- not applicable, entire series results invalid for Rondo per NetsForce

Cleveland series

- Game 1: Boston wins 76-72. Rondo is second highest Boston scorer.
15 pts, 5 reb, 6 ast, 1 stl, 5-8 FG, 5-6 FT

- Game 5: Boston wins 96-89. Third highest Boston scorer.
20 pts, 13 ast (vs. 1 to), 2 stl, 2 blk, 9-15 FG, 2-3 3PT

- Game 7: Boston wins 97-92. Pierce and LeBron = not the only players on court.
8 pts, 8 reb, 8 ast (vs. 2 to), 1 stl, 1 blk

Detroit series

- Game 1: Boston wins 88-79. Rondo third highest Boston scorer.
11 pts, 2 reb, 7 assists (vs. 1 to), 5 steals, 5-9 FG, 1-1 3PT

- Game 5: Boston wins 106-102. Poor shooting for Rondo, but...
7 pts, 6 reb, 13 assists (vs. 1 to), 4 steals, 1 block

LA series

- Game 1: Boston wins 98-88. Decent game for Rondo.
15 pts, 5 reb, 7 assists (vs. 2 to), 4-10 FG, 7-10 FT

- Game 2: Boston wins 108-102. Most assists in Finals since Magic.
4 pts, 6 rebounds, 16 assists (vs. 2 to), 2 steals, 1 block

- Game 6: Boston wins 131-92. Approaches a quad, third highest scorer.
21 pts, 7 reb, 8 assists (vs. 1 to), 6 steals

So he wasn't really a factor in:
1 of the 4 wins vs. CLE
2 of the 4 wins vs. DET
1 of the 4 wins vs. LA

Conversely, he was a major factor in:
3 of the 4 wins vs. CLE
2 of the 4 wins vs. DET
3 of the 4 wins vs. LA

So, please explain your theory of how he wasn't a major factor in the championship.

[microfib4thewin]

In order to be considered a top player at a position, you can't just have a couple of decent performances for every series. Rondo's inability to direct ball movement was one of the reason why things got intense in the early rounds. As a Piston fan point out, half the time Rondo has a good performance was when Boston was leading by double digit.

"Conversely, he was a major factor in:
3 of the 4 wins vs. CLE
2 of the 4 wins vs. DET
3 of the 4 wins vs. LA"

You can't count out the games where Boston lost because he was a non factor.

[wigglestrue]

In order to be considered a top player at a position, you can't just have a couple of decent performances for every series.

What do you need, then? Please recount what the top 10-15 PG in your mind not named Rondo have done to deserve their positions, what did they do for their teams, what did they do in the playoffs, what kind of impact did they have?

Mind you, you're shortchanging what he did, which was better than "a couple of decent performances" per series. I only listed the wins because winning a championship occurs when a team wins games, 4 of them to be exact, in 4 consecutive playoff series. He had other good games, and GTFO of here with calling some of those games merely "decent".

Rondo's inability to direct ball movement was one of the reason why things got intense in the early rounds.

And what were the other reasons?

As a Piston fan point out, half the time Rondo has a good performance was when Boston was leading by double digit.

Sorry, that's pure horse****, on multiple levels.

"Conversely, he was a major factor in:
3 of the 4 wins vs. CLE
2 of the 4 wins vs. DET
3 of the 4 wins vs. LA"

You can't count out the games where Boston lost because he was a non factor.

Dude, I'm not counting them out.

The issue was whether or not he'd been a major factor in the team winning the title. He had some good games in losses, too. But if a player made major contributions to most of the 16 wins, then that player was a major factor. Period. End of issue.

[dsorc]

In order to be considered a top player at a position, you can't just have a couple of decent performances for every series. Rondo's inability to direct ball movement was one of the reason why things got intense in the early rounds. As a Piston fan point out, half the time Rondo has a good performance was when Boston was leading by double digit.

"Conversely, he was a major factor in:
3 of the 4 wins vs. CLE
2 of the 4 wins vs. DET
3 of the 4 wins vs. LA"

You can't count out the games where Boston lost because he was a non factor.

As to the bolded part, comments from celtic's players about the PG situation during the playoffs contradict that. Rondo was the best Boston guard in terms of getting them to their offense. His issue is that he had no confidence in his shot which meant that even if the offense was set, they were playing 4vs5 at times on the offensive end.

I don't think Rondo is a top 10 guard yet but he's damn close. He's one of the best defensive PGs in the league with his only issue in that end being big PGs that can out-muscle him. In other words, he has issues against Chauncey, Deron, and maybe Baron and shouldn't be used to guard SGs. In the offensive end, he's quick enough to get by most guards but he still has issues finishing. People attack his BBIQ, but I think he's very good in that sense and specially in understanding how to get his teammates shots were they like them. He needs to shoot better no doubt and once he does the confidence issue will be resolved. He got into the habit of overthinking, knowing he's not a good shooter he opted too many times to get the ball to what he saw as better shots. Once he starts making shots, he will stop overpassing.

[microfib4thewin]

If Rondo was as good as you say he is, then the Cs wouldn't need 7 games for the Hawks or Cavs. Again, win or loss, Rondo did play in those games, and there's always a higher chance that players are a factor in the games they win than the games they lose. I know you love to wipe off all the shortcomings of Rondo, but he did perform badly on occasion in terms of his decision making(i.e passing up open shots, not going to the paint when there's a huge lead which gets cut 5 minutes later) that the Celtics needed to play 20 games to reach the finals. Since the Celtics did win the title, should we say Kendrick Perkins is a top 10 center also? Or that Powe is the one of the best 6th man in the NBA?

When you have the benefit of playing with 3 allstars that are great individual performers, can shoot from a distance, with KG/Pierce being the best passing foward duo in the league, it's much easier to operate under full efficiency. Even though Allen has been mostly MIA during the playoff run, Pierce and KG's performance as well as bench shooting from Posey and House give Rondo much more breathing room. In the Finals, he didn't show up 3 of the 6 games, how is this any different than the performance of a role player?

[wigglestrue]

If Rondo was as good as you say he is, then the Cs wouldn't need 7 games for the Hawks or Cavs. Again, win or loss, Rondo did play in those games, and there's always a higher chance that players are a factor in the games they win than the games they lose. I know you love to wipe off all the shortcomings of Rondo, but he did perform badly on occasion in terms of his decision making(i.e passing up open shots, not going to the paint when there's a huge lead which gets cut 5 minutes later) that the Celtics needed to play 20 games to reach the finals. Since the Celtics did win the title, should we say Kendrick Perkins is a top 10 center also? Or that Powe is the one of the best 6th man in the NBA?

What an abundance of terrible logic.

If Garnett/Pierce/Allen were as good as everyone says he is, then the C's wouldn't need blah blah blah that's gotta be the single most annoying thing about this wonderful week, is hearing people mindlessly yap about the Hawks and Cavs, as if it's impossible that those teams just played really really well as well as the Celtics as an entire team needing their playoff cherry popped. But no, you're just going to lay it ("it" being getting taken to the limit against the Hawks and Cavs as if that's some kind of crime against NBA history) on one guy: Rondo. Naturally, because this is a Rondo thread. Someone should start a "Perk's rank as C in the NBA" thread, so that you can lay everything that went wrong on Perk, maybe the same people won't read both threads.

When you have the benefit of playing with 3 allstars that are great individual performers, can shoot from a distance, with KG/Pierce being the best passing foward duo in the league, it's much easier to operate under full efficiency. Even though Allen has been mostly MIA during the playoff run, Pierce and KG's performance as well as bench shooting from Posey and House give Rondo much more breathing room.

Right, has there ever been a young rising star whom people actually gave credit to? How does it happen? I'm not talking megastars like Dwight Howard, nope. Just a guy like Tayshaun Prince on in '04 or Tony Parker in '03. Did they get the same ice cold shoulder from people who'd rather give the Celtics team dentist some credit for the title instead of Rondo? Did people type self-contradictory garbage like, "the benefit of playing with the best passing forward duo in the league", without even a glimmer of recognition that such a thing would substantially reduce Rondo's assists? Or act as if as if it hasn't been pointed out over and over again that Rondo was producing at basically the same rate in the 25 games he started last season, which means that ALL YOUR HE'D BE NOTHING WITHOUT HIS NEW TEAMMATES ARGUMENTS ARE DESTROYED, and have been destroyed for quite some time?

In the Finals, he didn't show up 3 of the 6 games, how is this any different than the performance of a role player?

Hmmm, maybe it's because HE WAS ******* INJURED IN THOSE THREE GAMES?????? JUST MAYBE???

[circushots]

I have a hard time thinking that Rondo's rank as a point guard is significantly elevated by the playoffs. He played good defense, we already knew that. But he also still managed to significantly hinder his team's offensive flow by being in the game. I can't even think of the last time I've seen such an offensive liability at the guard position (in terms of scoring).

Sure, he contributed greatly to the defensive mindset of the Celtics. He stops penetration, gets in the passing lanes, and just in general disrupts rhythm very well. But the same argument that applies to the fact that great offensive players often dog it on defense, I find applies here. You're playing with three of the best offensive players in the league, and you still manage to struggle greatly with scoring the ball? A huge factor in the series, which was largely in part to Rondo's injury, was the effect that House had. He had a zillion open looks and completely changed the game.

Anyway, I have a hard time believing that he's a top ten point guard yet in the league.
Davis
Paul
Williams
Parker
Billups
Nash
Kidd
Miller
Arenas
Hinrich

are all unanimously better. Then I think about guys that I could probably substitute on that same team and get the job done (albeit by a different manner- e.g more scoring, lesser defensively)...calderon, bibby, harris, fisher, etc. If Calderon is knocking down at all time efficiency on the Raptors, I'm pretty sure on the C's he'll break all sorts of records with all the wide open Js he'd get.

Now that I think about it right now Rondo really reminds me of Devin Harris, perhaps a poor man's version of him.

Rondo has the tools to be a top 10 PG and is almost there. The story remains the same for him. Get a jumper and play with more confidence.

[wigglestrue]

I can't even think of the last time I've seen such an offensive liability at the guard position (in terms of scoring).

Good to know I'm not the only person who likes hyperbole.

Sure, he contributed greatly to the defensive mindset of the Celtics. He stops penetration, gets in the passing lanes, and just in general disrupts rhythm very well. But the same argument that applies to the fact that great offensive players often dog it on defense, I find applies here. You're playing with three of the best offensive players in the league, and you still manage to struggle greatly with scoring the ball? A huge factor in the series, which was largely in part to Rondo's injury, was the effect that House had. He had a zillion open looks and completely changed the game.

Which game...4? Because that's the only game the Celtics won in which Rondo wasn't starting and playing PG for most of the game. I mean, come on. COME ON. Eddie ******* House was a huge factor in the series...but Rondo wasn't??????? Eddie House was a major factor in winning a single game of the four we won, a game that eventually turned into his kind of let-her-rip atmosphere because the Celtics were down so badly and needed threes. Please tell me when Eddie was a major factor again, and if you weren't joking please tell me if you actually think Eddie House was a more important factor than Rondo.

Also, take another look at this sentence, take a nice long look:

"You're playing with three of the best offensive players in the league, and you still manage to struggle greatly with scoring the ball?"

Hmmm.

What exactly did you want him to do? I would have loved it had he taken several more open jumpers, jumpers he's totally capable of hitting, and if he'd finished around the rim with at least as soft a touch as he had during the regular season (instead of missing several bunnies). That's about it. People are acting as if he went ******* scoreless throughout the playoffs and single-handedly screwed up the Celtics offensive flow, the same flow that won most of the games he was in, the same flow that won an NBA championship. People are acting as if whenever he passed up an open shot that it instantly screwed up that Celtics possession, as if he didn't often rally in that same possession for a good attempt from somebody. In other words, people are acting as if they DIDN'T WATCH THE SERIES.

Anyway, I have a hard time believing that he's a top ten point guard yet in the league.
Davis
Paul
Williams
Parker
Billups
Nash
Kidd
Miller
Arenas
Hinrich

Rondo > Hinrich, arguably Miller.
Arenas is not a real PG.

are all unanimously better.

No.

Then I think about guys that I could probably substitute on that same team and get the job done (albeit by a different manner- e.g more scoring, lesser defensively)...calderon, bibby, harris, fisher, etc. If Calderon is knocking down at all time efficiency on the Raptors, I'm pretty sure on the C's he'll break all sorts of records with all the wide open Js he'd get.

Guess who wouldn't let Calderon 5000 feet near this team if it meant giving up Rondo? Ainge. 99% of people who actually watched the majority of Celtics games this year. People who, maybe thanks to the media repeating it enough, finally realize that defense wins championships. Thank christ none of you has any control over the Celtics roster. "Well shoot, if Rondo's defense is vastly improved by being in that system next to those teammates [sic: it's not vastly improved, he was just about as great a defender last year] then surely Jose's defense will become that good too!" No. Take away Rondo and the team defense starts to unravel. Replace him with a poor defender, I don't care how well he shoots, and the team defense starts to disintegrate.

Now that I think about it right now Rondo really reminds me of Devin Harris, perhaps a poor man's version of him.

Oh for the love of christ, WHAT THE HELL HAS DEVIN HARRIS DEMONSTRATED OR ACCOMPLISHED THAT RONDO HASN'T? "Poor man's Devin Harris", jesus that's so (Please Use More Appropriate Word). Sorry, I'm not mad at you personally dude. I just can't take any more ignorance about Rondo.

Rondo has the tools to be a top 10 PG and is almost there. The story remains the same for him. Get a jumper and play with more confidence.

Already there. He's already got a midrange jumper. Just needed to take it more.

[eatyourchildren]

You're smoking something if you think Rondo is better than Andre Miller.