Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA

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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#136 » by yunggunz » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:52 am

wigglestrue wrote:
I understand that he's an able passer, but when you're a subpar shooter and indecisive at the PG position, you're a liability.


Uh, no.

A. Subpar shooting and indecisiveness are individual liabilities in his game.

B. Rondo is not himself a liability.

Whether or not the mob (= you people) differentiates between A and B is almost completely a matter of the mob bending to the buildup or lack thereof of establishment media hype, not much of which gets fixated on players who tend to do things on the court besides score. Once you get the green signal from ESPN that it's okay to respect Rondo and give him his due, whenever the sports pseudo-intelligentsia turns that light green, there'll be all sorts of backtracking, you'll be practically gliding backward to the thrust of this thread, moonwalking into reality as if there was nothing amiss. ****, you sort of knew it all along. Sheep. Posers. And with someone actually writing Rondo was the 5th best player, I bid this thread goodbye!



LMAO. Pretend the Celtics never traded for Garnett and never traded for Ray Allen.

No one....youself included, would even think about putting Rondo in the top 15. Hell, had the Celtics been knocked out by the Hawks, it would be the same story.

Lets put it this way: if Rondo was a top 10 PG, why was it so hard for them to get past the ATL and Cleveland?
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#137 » by eatyourchildren » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:09 am

circushots wrote:Wiggles, I wrote offensive liability, not a liability in general.

Regarding Rondo in general, I don't get why you feel that I'm disrespecting the guy by saying he isn't a top 10 player. I have conceded that he's a great defender. What else? He's an amazing offensive rebounder and rebounder in general, good penetrator when he's got his confidence going, and he's a good transition player.

But he has lots of holes in his game, and these prevent him from being as good as he can be right now. I thought I was just stating the obvious.


No, he's a complete player. Switch him out with any of the other top 10 point guards and their records stay the same or improve.
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#138 » by yunggunz » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:17 am

eatyourchildren wrote:
circushots wrote:Wiggles, I wrote offensive liability, not a liability in general.

Regarding Rondo in general, I don't get why you feel that I'm disrespecting the guy by saying he isn't a top 10 player. I have conceded that he's a great defender. What else? He's an amazing offensive rebounder and rebounder in general, good penetrator when he's got his confidence going, and he's a good transition player.

But he has lots of holes in his game, and these prevent him from being as good as he can be right now. I thought I was just stating the obvious.


No, he's a complete player. Switch him out with any of the other top 10 point guards and their records stay the same or improve.

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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#139 » by Baller 24 » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:40 am

Lol, how is Arenas not a PG? if you got to 82games.com and look at the 2006-2007 season then he is a Point Guard, he has spent most of his time at that position. So yes, Arenas is a PG and is better then Rondo.

Lol at Rondo being better then Miller
How?
Hinrich is the better scorer, defender, play maker, rebounder, 3 point shooter, and I know its your opinion, but you can make a thread over Hinrch vs Rondo, and I'm pretty sure about over 60-80% will say Hinrich. I know this past season hasn't been the best, but besides this past season, his Win shares have been terrific and pretty above average for a point guard of his caliber.

Lol at saying Rondo is better then Miller
How?
MUCH better playmaker, Rondo may have the slight edge defensively, Miller is the better rebounder, comparable scorer, but Miller still beats him in that category.

Again, if you trade Rondo for Hinrich, do the Bulls get better or worse, and do the Celtics get better or worse? I'm pretty sure Hinrich would do a much better job at playing PG then Rondo, because he can give them a better playmaker, and a much better scorer, which adds a 3 point threat. Also a much better defender, even though they are comparable defenders. Can Rondo do what Miller did in Philly? Miller led a young team into the playoffs, can Rondo do that? I don't think so man.

Wigglestrue, I usually like your post, your usually unbiased, you have great knowledge, but I'm not a fan of this one...
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#140 » by evilRyu » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:09 am

If we took this entire thread, changed every occurrence of the word "Rondo" with "<random name>", and shown it to some random dink in the street, you will have him completely convinced that <random name> a surefire 1st ballot HOF.... :lol: this thread has been bookmarked for future viewing pleasure to revive comedic pleasure when I'm feeling like crap....
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#141 » by evilRyu » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:11 am

eatyourchildren wrote:
No, he's a complete player. Switch him out with any of the other top 10 point guards and their records stay the same or improve.


Spare me the nightmare.... don't want him.
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#142 » by meatball sub » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:22 am

evilRyu wrote:
eatyourchildren wrote:
No, he's a complete player. Switch him out with any of the other top 10 point guards and their records stay the same or improve.


Spare me the nightmare.... don't want him.


The nightmare of watching a guy actually play defense on your team every night?

It's amazing how people automatically assume Rondo will never get any better. He was the X-factor on an NBA Champion in his second season for Christ's sake. When he played bad, we struggled and many times lost (especially the first two rounds on the road). Next year is his third season, if you know anything about point guards you know that's a scary thought with this kid's talent and work ethic.

And since I don't read thsi board that often and I'm bound to probably receive hate for the x-factor comment, all I have to say is: It's no coincidence that we were so dominant at home throughout the playoffs and Rondo played much better at home.
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#143 » by UGA Hayes » Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:48 pm

On the defensive side some of you guys are spreading bogus information. John Hollinger, mister stats guy himself, rated Rondo the best defensive PG in the league for two years in a row, so clearly there is statistical evidence that the team is much better defensively with Rondo. Remember according to Hollinger we were something like the 3rd best defensive team of the modern statistical era, meaning while yes replacing him with house or cassell still led to haing a good defensive team, it didn't lead to having a historically great defensive team.
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#144 » by Rasheeed!!! » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:59 pm

Lindsey Hunter laughs at this best defensive point guard in the NBA shennanigans
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#145 » by eatyourchildren » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:27 pm

Hell, I'd rather have Rodney "When's the last time an NBA player has been named Rodney" Stuckey on my squad than Rondo.

You're telling me you wouldn't rather have mini Rodney on the Celtics? Someone who plays defense and doesn't pass out a wide open layup for a 3 pointer?
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#146 » by dsorc » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:09 am

eatyourchildren wrote:Hell, I'd rather have Rodney "When's the last time an NBA player has been named Rodney" Stuckey on my squad than Rondo.

You're telling me you wouldn't rather have mini Rodney on the Celtics? Someone who plays defense and doesn't pass out a wide open layup for a 3 pointer?

I would still have Rondo. Yes we know he suck at shooting most games but he still is one of the best defensive players on the team and still gets the team into it's offensive sets very efficiently.

One thing that I've noticed in this thread is that people keep saying that if he were put somewhere else he would do worse. There are two teams where that would be true Cavs and Lakers as those are two teams that just need thei PG to shoot. Put him anywhere else and let him create and he would actually do a lot better. The defensive schemes used against him in the playoffs only work because he was the 4th option on the team. On any other team he would have the ball in his hands more leading to more assists and more penetration instead of having to clear out so the big three can do their thing. If Calderon could play defense anywhere close to him then that would be a player I would sub in for Rondo. But, as was shown with House and Cassell, just having a guy that's there to be a scorer does not work with what the Celtics want to do.

I have said this before in the thread but I'll repeat it here, I don't think he's top 10 but he's close. And I also think that as the big three decline more of the offensive burden will be passed on to him and then he'll really shine. He's much better on the ball than off the ball offensively.
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#147 » by Bank Shot » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:14 am

I`ll admit that he`s a top defensive PG but I don`t think that makes up for the offensive disadvantage that he has compared to a lot of PGs. Defense at the 1 isn`t nearly as important as offense from the 1. Its not as if Rondo really guards swingmen either so the big defensive edge he has on guys like Calderon and Ford is more then offset by their offensive advantages.

I think he has top 10 potential but he`s not there yet. I`d put him closer to 15 then 10. And there is no way hes better than Miller. When Miller was traded for Iverson, the Sixers immediately became a solid team. You trade current Rondo for Iverson and no way does Phili have the turn around they did.
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#148 » by eatyourchildren » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:21 am

dsorc wrote:One thing that I've noticed in this thread is that people keep saying that if he were put somewhere else he would do worse. There are two teams where that would be true Cavs and Lakers as those are two teams that just need thei PG to shoot. Put him anywhere else and let him create and he would actually do a lot better. The defensive schemes used against him in the playoffs only work because he was the 4th option on the team. On any other team he would have the ball in his hands more leading to more assists and more penetration instead of having to clear out so the big three can do their thing. If Calderon could play defense anywhere close to him then that would be a player I would sub in for Rondo. But, as was shown with House and Cassell, just having a guy that's there to be a scorer does not work with what the Celtics want to do.


Are you really trying to argue that the reason that guys sag off Rondo is not because he's an offensive liability? If he had less options to go to on his squad, wouldn't that be even more reason to sag?
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#149 » by T-Spot » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:40 am

dsorc wrote:
eatyourchildren wrote: If Calderon could play defense anywhere close to him then that would be a player I would sub in for Rondo. But, as was shown with House and Cassell, just having a guy that's there to be a scorer does not work with what the Celtics want to do.


Are you seriously trying to compare House and Cassell to Calderon?

Calderon is fifth in the league [behind Nash, Deron, Paul, and Kidd] in nearly every assist stat [assist per game, total assists, assist rate] despite not only playing 6 less minutes than the average MPG the other four get, but also has very low usage rate at 16.9 compared to the average of the other four which is at 22.2 [heck, Calderon's usage rate is even lower than Rondo's which is at 18.9]

And he also threw up a disgusting 50/40/90 shooting line [52/43/91] and a TS% of nearly 61% [which is 10% higher than Rondo's TS% of 51]. Oh yeah, his AST/TO ratio is something disgusting like ~5.5/1.

Calderon can do a lot without needing the ball in his hands, is a incredible gifted passer and floor general, is an ace shooter and is the sheer definition of efficiency.

I'm probably getting all defensive over nothing, but you know I need to have my shameless Calderon plug in here somewhere. :wink:
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#150 » by celticfan42487 » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:45 am

In fairness, House played totally out of character this season and was a very able defender off the bench. I only watch the Raptors when they are facing a fun team like ORL or in the playoffs, or against us, or the Sixers wich is entertaing exchange.

But House consistently played defense on a level that Calderon has probuly never played in the NBA

Was House Lindsey Hunter? Hell no, but he was a very capable defender and gave us a boost there coming off the bench all year. Maybe it has to do with the complete change of pace he brought but he almost never got burnt and his positional technique was perfect and effective.
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#151 » by dsorc » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:24 am

eatyourchildren wrote:
dsorc wrote:One thing that I've noticed in this thread is that people keep saying that if he were put somewhere else he would do worse. There are two teams where that would be true Cavs and Lakers as those are two teams that just need thei PG to shoot. Put him anywhere else and let him create and he would actually do a lot better. The defensive schemes used against him in the playoffs only work because he was the 4th option on the team. On any other team he would have the ball in his hands more leading to more assists and more penetration instead of having to clear out so the big three can do their thing. If Calderon could play defense anywhere close to him then that would be a player I would sub in for Rondo. But, as was shown with House and Cassell, just having a guy that's there to be a scorer does not work with what the Celtics want to do.


Are you really trying to argue that the reason that guys sag off Rondo is not because he's an offensive liability? If he had less options to go to on his squad, wouldn't that be even more reason to sag?

Look again. It's easy to sag when Rondo doesn't have the ball which is what happened as his man would just double the ball. When Rondo had the ball they couldn't sag because he was getting to wherever he wanted anyways. If Rondo was on a lesser team he'd be better or at least have better stats which is what people want to compare here.

T-Spot wrote:
dsorc wrote: If Calderon could play defense anywhere close to him then that would be a player I would sub in for Rondo. But, as was shown with House and Cassell, just having a guy that's there to be a scorer does not work with what the Celtics want to do.


Are you seriously trying to compare House and Cassell to Calderon?

Calderon is fifth in the league [behind Nash, Deron, Paul, and Kidd] in nearly every assist stat [assist per game, total assists, assist rate] despite not only playing 6 less minutes than the average MPG the other four get, but also has very low usage rate at 16.9 compared to the average of the other four which is at 22.2 [heck, Calderon's usage rate is even lower than Rondo's which is at 18.9]
How many assist opportunities would he get with the Celtics? Remember, the offense runs through the big three not the PG. Also, Rondo is faster/better penetrator so it's more likely he gets more chances in this case.


T-Spot wrote:And he also threw up a disgusting 50/40/90 shooting line [52/43/91] and a TS% of nearly 61% [which is 10% higher than Rondo's TS% of 51]. Oh yeah, his AST/TO ratio is something disgusting like ~5.5/1.

I don't think anybody will argue that Calderon is a better shooter than Rondo, hence why I compared to our good shooting PGs: House and Cassell.


T-Spot wrote:Calderon can do a lot without needing the ball in his hands, is a incredible gifted passer and floor general, is an ace shooter and is the sheer definition of efficiency.

I'm probably getting all defensive over nothing, but you know I need to have my shameless Calderon plug in here somewhere. :wink:

That rant was almost at the level of wiggles defending Rondo. Well done. :D
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#152 » by themonopolyguy » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:51 am

it's sad because I believe Rondo is a good player, but not in top 10, OP should stop this before Rondo becomes the most over-rated player in 2008
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#153 » by shawngoat23 » Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:36 am

Rondo has a lot of upside. It would not surprise me if in the future he became an elite PG, perhaps a tier under the likes of Chris Paul and Deron Williams. That said, I do not believe that he is a top 10 PG right now; in fact, I believe he lies outside the top 15.
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#154 » by Derekman » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:32 pm

in the east alone Miller,Billups,Ford,Jose, harris, Gilbert
West: Parker,Baron,paul,deron,kidd,nash,AI

That's 13 right there clearly better than him. I'm pretty sure i can come up with 2-3 more if i actually looked it up but im too lazy.
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Re: Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA 

Post#155 » by microfib4thewin » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:35 pm

"How many assist opportunities would he get with the Celtics? Remember, the offense runs through the big three not the PG. Also, Rondo is faster/better penetrator so it's more likely he gets more chances in this case."

And until Rondo is the one running the offense, he should not be mentioned as a top 10 PG.

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