Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA

[Alex_De_Large]

league 1: Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Baron Davis, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups. (All-star)
league 2: Tony Parker, Andre Miller, Jose Calderon, Devin Harris, Kirk Hinrich
league 3: Mike Bibby, Rajon Rondo, Mo Williams, Tj Ford, Jameer Nelson.

But maybe Bibby and Rondo should be in league 2 and Harris and Hinrich in league 3.

[wigglestrue]

guards who are defensively better than him include Devin Harris, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Kirk Hinrich, Baron Davis, and arguably Jason Kidd.

@ most of those names.

[Malinhion]

Most of those names would make Rondo's defense look like clown shoes if they played on the Celtics.

[CBS7]

Sorry, wigglestrue, but I really think you're being a homer here.

But you aren't overrating his defense much. He may have benefited from being in a great defensive system, but he was at least top 5 last season.

And again, playing next to 3 likely HOFers can do wonders for your game. I don't doubt that Rondo will be a top 10 PG in the future, maybe very soon, but he isn't one right now.

[ITK9]

derron
cp3
nash
baron davis
iverson
kidd
andre miller
parker
hinrich
arenas
tj ford
calderon
mo williams
bibby
billups
harris
felton

here is a qucik list of 17 pg's that are easily better than rondo so considering him a top 10 pg it's absolutly ridiculous.

[Basileus777]

There is no way Tony Parker is a better defender than Rondo. Not a chance. Parker is an average defender who isn't exposed as often as he should because the Spurs are good at hiding him.

I'm not a Rondo fan, but he's a top three defensive pg. Its not saying much when there are only a few pgs in the league who are better than average at defense, but Rondo is still a better defender than the vast majority of pgs. Rondo's problem is that he is a liability on offense. Top 10 pgs don't get consistently doubled off of.

[Malinhion]

You're right. Parker was a stretch. He's quick when slashing but his lateral quickness leaves a lot to be desired and his man often bypasses him. But I would still take the rest as defenders in Rondo's role on the Celtics.

[wigglestrue]

I'm "being a homer", sure, but I guess some things occur to homers before they occur to the rest of the NBA fanbase. As a homer, I'm not subject to whatever it is that makes you people resistant to accurately assessing Rondo. For example, it's ******* absurd to even mention Bibby in the same breath as Rondo at this point, that one comparison at the very least is indisputable, and anyone who has Rondo in the same class as Bibby is manifesting a general case of Resistance to Rondo. What is it? That he was drafted late in the 1st round? Had he been a top 5-7 pick like he should have been, y'all would probably be more inclined to give him his due. Playing with the big three? He was basically this good in the 25 games he started last season. He lacks a regular outside shot? He's just not taking as many as he should, and it improved dramatically as it is. He's not as aggressive as he should be? Isn't that a matter of the big three depressing his individual opportunities? If he was on a different team, a team with less pass-friendly forwards, a team without a true 1st or 2nd (or 3rd) option (especially without ones that handle the ball so often), a team that didn't slow the pace down and rebound so well from top to bottom -- maybe he'd be racking up 10+ assists a game, a couple more rebounds, several more points, or whatever else would quiet the stat-whore doubters. Andre ******* Miller? Really? In a vacuum you'd rather have Andre Miller than Rajon Rondo? Please. This was the best defensive team in the NBA by a wide margin, one of the best defensive teams of all time really, and Rondo was the team's second best defender, second only to the DPOY. His defense was profoundly important to the team. He's indisputably at least one of the top 3 defensive PG in the league, anyone who questions that is pulling our leg. So what is it? That the Celtics have three stars already and you just can't bear the thought of there being a fourth, because that would mean the [insert your team] don't really have a ******* chance in hell for at least the next couple of years?

[Malinhion]

You your retort is a rant admitting and proving your homerdom?

[wigglestrue]

Sure, why not.

[CBS7]

Andre Miller put up 17/7, played good defense, and shot 49%.

Sorry, Bibby I understand, but if you think its crazy to put Miller ahead of Rondo, I don't know what to say.

[T-Spot]

Andre Miller put up 17/7, played good defense, and shot 49%.

Sorry, Bibby I understand, but if you think its crazy to put Miller ahead of Rondo, I don't know what to say.

Seriously, comparing Rondo to Miller is an injustice to Rondo! DID YOU KNOW HE PUT UP 10/5/49% THIS SEASON, AND HE ALSO PUT UP 9/6.5/36% IN THE LAST TWO PLAY-OFF SERIES!? Seriously, why are you hating? I mean, with jems like this from his fans, its clear that the man is the second coming of Magic.

I say he's going to be a 20 pt scorer with a reliable 3pt shot by the time he's 25. He'll also be a 2-3 time All-Star with 2 or 3 championship rings by then--and up there with Paul and Williams as the 'Big 3' point guards in a new generation of point guard play.

At the start of the season I felt Rondo would end up only behing Paul when looking at the current young PG (although I think Rose could join that group too) and I still feel that way.

You will be proved wrong next season! [Funny, I thought I would be proved wrong in the post season]

If he was on a different team.....

We'd be going, "Rondo Who?"

[wigglestrue]

Andre Miller put up 17/7, played good defense, and shot 49%.

Sorry, Bibby I understand, but if you think its crazy to put Miller ahead of Rondo, I don't know what to say.

Reference Comparison

Per 36 shows Rondo to be just as good as Miller, statistically. And the stats don't truly capture how awesome Rondo's defense was. I personally think it's crazy, i.e., I would much rather have Rondo than Miller, but okay sure I can see that it's at least disputable. Bibby? No.

[wigglestrue]

You will be proved wrong next season! [Funny, I thought I would be proved wrong in the post season]

You were proved wrong, you just don't know it.

[CBS7]

As of now, I don't see it. Miller is much better overall, and he's not slouch on defense. Value wise I'd take Rondo as he's much younger and has a chance to be very good.

Miller put up much more ppg, on the same efficiency, as a #2 option, and was one of the main reasons why the Sixers made the playoffs this season. He didn't have the luxury of being a #4 option behind one of the best big 3's in recent history like Rondo. And that does have an effect on your play. Not having as much responsibility on offense allows Rondo to give more energy on defense, as well. And that does make a difference, too. He's a very good defender, at least top 5 for his position, but he does benefit from being in a great system and playing with the DPOY.

He didn't have a Calderon-like A/TO ratio. Calderon's was 5.4 A/TO for the season, Rondo's was 2.4 for the season and 3.6 for the playoffs.

Rondo had some great games... but he had some crap games too. Right before that 21/8/7/6 game he put up 3/3 and shot 1-7, and before that 5/2 and shot 2-4. Even in that clincher he shot 8-20. Even with that great game 6 and the other game where he had the most assists in a finals game since Magic, he averaged 9.3/6.7/3.8 for the series while shooting 37.7% and 59.3% from the line. I don't see anything so spectacular from his playoff run that puts him into the top 10 for PGs. For the playoffs as a whole, he put up 10.2/6.6/4.1/1.7 and shot 40.7% from the field and 69.1% from the line. I don't see why its hard to see that fans of other team's aren't going to get excited about that.

He's a good player. He's young, he's just 22 years old and has a lot of room for improvement. He'll be top 10 in a few years, and possibly even top 5-7. But did you say he'd be putting up like 16/10/6 (you said 10+ assists, several more points, couple more rebounds) right now on another team? I just don't see it.

At the start of the season I felt Rondo would end up only behing Paul when looking at the current young PG (although I think Rose could join that group too) and I still feel that way.

Deron Williams?

[T-Spot]

You were proved wrong, you just don't know it.

Damn, I'm sorry. I guess I will forever worship the 10/6.5/40% in 32 MPG that is Rajon Rondo. I will also make sure the world knows of Rondo's unbelievable 9/6.5/36% in the last two play-off series! I was defiantly proven wrong!

[TheSheriff]

Devin Harris, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Baron Davis, and arguably Jason Kidd. Are not better defensive point guards than Rondo. They are better players than Rondo, but that is because of their offense. Billups and Hinrich are the only ones in his class.

[wigglestrue]

As of now, I don't see it. Miller is much better overall, and he's not slouch on defense. Value wise I'd take Rondo as he's much younger and has a chance to be very good.

Miller put up much more ppg, on the same efficiency, as a #2 option, and was one of the main reasons why the Sixers made the playoffs this season. He didn't have the luxury of being a #4 option behind one of the best big 3's in recent history like Rondo. And that does have an effect on your play.

Yeah, multiple effects, negative and positive.
#4 is a luxury, and so can #2 be if what you're looking for is stat-filling.

Not having as much responsibility on offense allows Rondo to give more energy on defense, as well.

You're probably exaggerating the disparity in offensive responsibility between Rondo and Miller. Rondo's energy on defense has practically nothing to do with energy he somehow has left over from being somewhat less resonsible for the offense than, say, Miller. His energy is relentless, if you hadn't noticed.

And that does make a difference, too. He's a very good defender, at least top 5 for his position, but he does benefit from being in a great system and playing with the DPOY.

Yeah, great system, yeah, playing with the DPOY. But I guarantee you on any other team that's among the greatest defensive teams of all time, the second best defender would be getting respect showered on him, POURED on him.

He didn't have a Calderon-like A/TO ratio. Calderon's was 5.4 A/TO for the season, Rondo's was 2.4 for the season and 3.6 for the playoffs.

His AST/TO was Calderonian vs. ATL and LA, at least.
Point is, he took really really good care of the ball, with few exceptions.

Rondo had some great games... but he had some crap games too. Right before that 21/8/7/6 game he put up 3/3 and shot 1-7, and before that 5/2 and shot 2-4.

Dude, he was freaking injured. In fact, take out those injured games and look at what he did in the playoffs and that series in particular, since those shortened stints really dampened his per game stats. Look at his per 36 at least, that'll include the injured games and still be representative of how he really played:

Playoffs in 32: 10.2 points, 6.6 assists, 4.1 rebounds, 1.7 steals
Playoffs per 36: 11.5 points, 7.2 assists, 4.4 rebounds, 1.9 steals

Finals in 27.2: 9.3 points, 6.7 assists, 3.8 rebounds, 1.5 steals
Finals per 36: 11 points, 7.9 assists, 4.5 rebounds, 1.8 steals

It's a minor improvement quantitatively, but qualitatively it's way more visible that he played damn good ball when he was healthy enough to be on the court. He missed more layups than he had been all season, he shrank from more open jumpers than he had all season. Those are the only negatives I saw in him these playoffs. Everything else was superb. Not necessarily statistically, but if you watched the games and judge him based on what you saw, then you know he was superb.

Even in that clincher he shot 8-20.

You've gotta be kidding me. That clincher was solid gold for him, save a couple missed bunnies.

Even with that great game 6 and the other game where he had the most assists in a finals game since Magic, he averaged 9.3/6.7/3.8 for the series while shooting 37.7% and 59.3% from the line.

See above.

In 3 of the 4 Finals wins, Rondo's performance was crucial to the win.
He had two phenomenal HOFer-type games, and one other really good game.
In the other three Finals games he was severely limited by a fresh injury.

I don't see anything so spectacular from his playoff run that puts him into the top 10 for PGs. For the playoffs as a whole, he put up 10.2/6.6/4.1/1.7 and shot 40.7% from the field and 69.1% from the line. I don't see why its hard to see that fans of other team's aren't going to get excited about that.

See above.

Also, does no one remember what Tony Parker was like in '03 or '05?
Does no one recall the kind of numbers that, say, Dennis Johnson put up?

He's a good player. He's young, he's just 22 years old and has a lot of room for improvement. He'll be top 10 in a few years, and possibly even top 5-7. But did you say he'd be putting up like 16/10/6 (you said 10+ assists, several more points, couple more rebounds) right now on another team? I just don't see it.

On several other teams, with the proper mpg, I can see him putting up 16/6/10/2.5, yes.

[AKBlazerFan]

This is like Wiggles vs RealGM, and he thinks he is winning.

Rondo is no way a top 10 pg, he can and might be in a few years, but not right now.

[wigglestrue]

You were proved wrong, you just don't know it.

Damn, I'm sorry. I guess I will forever worship the 10/6.5/40% in 32 MPG that is Rajon Rondo. I will also make sure the world knows of Rondo's unbelievable 9/6.5/36% in the last two play-off series! I was defiantly proven wrong!

It must kill you knowing you'll never see Calderon or Ford be the floor general for a champion.
If Calderon put up 21/7/8/6 in a championship clincher, you'd probably have a "Calderon for HOF" sig.