John Stockton vs. Steve Nash

[bastillon]

This is a REALLY dumb thing to say. Kidd most of his career has played in slow pace offenses under coaches that were/are defensive minded (at least they were in NJ).

first of all, Kidd played in fast pace offenses most of his career. in terms of pace his teams were almost always in TOP10.

what does that have to do with anything anyway ? fast pace doesn't mean efficiency and I'm arguing that Kidd's teams had inefficient offenses(it's a fact actually).

as for your support argument, as Doctor MJ said, the difference in teammates quality doesn't explain the difference in offenses quality.

since Nash became a full-time full-season starter in '01, their teams offensively ranked:

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          Nash      Kidd
2001       4         22
2002       1         17
2003       1         18
2004       1         25
2005       1         26
2006       2         25
2007       1         16

the difference is HUGE here.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Just face it guys, you're never going to convince him...

The years Steve Nash won the MVP his team averaged about 105 points per 48 minutes with him off the court.... when Kidd carried his team to the NBA finals they averaged about 85 points per 48 minutes when he was off the floor. Does that say anything to you about the supporting casts they had?

Look at Dallas after Nash left, they went all the way down to the 4th best offense in the NBA the year after he left with Jason Terry and Eric Dampier... than they sank all the way to the number 1 offense in the NBA the very next season with practically the same team. To top it off, they BARELY made the NBA finals. But that's only because they added defensive studs like Dampier and Jason Terry (the next best thing to Steve Nash).

Everyone knows Nash is great, but he doesn't deserve all the credit. Stephon Marbury lead a lesser Phoenix Suns team to 44 wins for crying out loud!

Dude, you won't even admit that after winning rookie of the year(02-03), making the olympic team(03-04) and being considered by some for MVP(04-05) Stodamire wasn't on the path to becoming a great player. GIVE ME A BREAK!

We all respect him, but your disrespect for every player that stands in the way of his glory is disgusting.

[bastillon]

you're not using reasonable argument, so how can you convince me ?
I've already responded to you why the Mavericks improved(mainly coaching, then getting rid of offensive players that made this team unbalanced, then changing philosophy etc.) and it doesn't have anything to do with Nash... yet you still somehow brought it up

Marbury did lead lesser team, but not by all that much. coaching matters. depth matters. defense matters. Marbury's Suns were 11th in DRtg. I'm sure they'd be so high with D'Antoni and their defensive stoppers

I've already told you - Amare was a one-dimensional player who could score and wasn't even that efficient on offense overall because he couldn't pass, didn't want to pass and turned the ball over at will... yet somehow you're arguing this guy:

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          PPG   RPG   APG   SPG   BPG   TOV   TS%
Amare   22.43  7.43  1.43  1.86  1.57  3.29  56.0

is a great player. give me a break.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Even on the MVP thread you said Nash is the MVP so far this season. Dirk has a +/- of +46.5 and Nash has a +/- of -0.9... Dirk is leading a lesser team and he's playing much better statistically yet you still think that Nash should win the MVP over him this season?

[Edited by mod--Avoid personal attacks]

[bastillon]

it's way to early to use +/- numbers, because they change so fast all the time. as of right now, I'd put Dirk ahead of Nash, because Mavericks have been dealing with injuries and they are only 0.5 game behind Suns.

[TrueLAfan]

Be polite here, everyone--no name calling or personal attacks.