John Stockton vs. Steve Nash

[Harison]

I would take Stockton over Nash pretty easily (better PG and defender, Nash has a slight edge in scoring). I would even question if Kidd isnt better than Nash, in several RGM voting threads Kidd won over Nash as well. I'm curious why anyone would pick Nash over John freaking Stockton, is it "scoring is everything" logic? MVPs? Do tell how Nash would win MVPs in the Golden age of NBA over Jordan, Magic, Hakeem, etc.

[Neon Black]

Explain to me how Nash's prime is better than Stockton's? 17/14 is better than 18/11 from a pure statistical standpoint, and then you throw in the fact that during Nash's prime, his turnover ratio goes through the effing roof while Stocktons stays consistently low. The more Nash handles the ball the more he turns it over, and that is huge.

And then there's steals and the fact that Stockton's prime came much earlier and lasted much longer.

Nash is a 14 point 8 assist PG unless he's on the Suns.


I'm going to come right out and say it: Nash's MVP's were nothing more than a fashion statement; he played on that "exciting, fast paced new Suns team" that everyone loved to love. There were more deserving players, but that's not always what being the MVP is about.

And you just can't make the argument that Nash has leadership and hits big important shots more often...

#1 - I remember tons of huge game winners Stockton hit in the playoffs, he did in fact step up when he needed to.

#2 What exactly has Nash led the Suns to? A few playoff exits?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDi0Ce_ ... L&index=37

[oaktownwarriors87]

Yeah, on those Suns teams people would beat them by letting Nash score the ball. They wanted him to shoot and they wanted to keep him from passing the ball to his teammates.

I think if you stick Jason Kidd on those teams they have better shot at a title because of his far superior rebounding and defensive skills. Kidd would be an amazing play maker in that offense. Could you imagine prime Kidd, Marion and Bell playing defense together?

[oaktownwarriors87]

And you just can't make the argument that Nash has leadership and hits big important shots more often...

Nash actually lead the NBA in missed game winning shots during his MVP years. I think he was 1 for 15.

[bastillon]

I think what's underrated about Nash is how he makes his teammates better. everyone looks at it in black & white category and it ain't right. if you talk about offense only, I'm begining to think that he was one of the best offensive anchors of all-time, not only he led 3 best teams offensively ever(statistically speaking), but this decade Nash has always been playing for TOP3 offense regardless of whether he was playing with Boris Diaw and Shawn Marion as his so called 'bigs' or with Amare and Frye. offense only - I think Nash is better than any player this decade, maybe close 2nd behind CP.

on the other end yeah, Nash is a bad defender, but his overall impact isn't as bad as for example Amare's. he's a PG, you can get away with having bad defender at PG position and still dominate defensively (Tony Parker). as bad as Nash's defense looks in the game, consider he's playing with flat out (Please Use More Appropriate Word) players there - Amare, Frye, Diaw at center and so on. Tony Parker isn't any better defender than Nash and I'd actually take Steve in that comparison. Chris Paul isn't much better defender than Nash either. he's flat out terrible when switching onto another player and he's often getting abused there. Derrick Rose last year was MUCH worse than Nash on the defensive end and no one is bringing that up. yeah, I know Nash is a bad defender. I also know he would be much better under different circumstances. give him KG or Duncan, let him concentrate on that end of the floor more and bam, suddenly he looks like he's above average. suddenly people are starting to notice how many charges he takes, how well he rotates on defense, his bball IQ in switch situations, his transition defense...

give me even a terrible defender at PG instead of big with bad defense.

[Baller 24]

We've done this argument before, Nash is better.

Stockton's noted to fade in the playoffs, his numbers actually take a dip. He's not as clutch as Nash, and he can't handle scoring at a volume rate, while handling the same effectiveness as Nash.

And based on who's observation is Stockton a "better" passer than Nash? At best, they're about equal, Nash makes some flat out amazing laser passes.

Where did this "defensive" argument come from? Stockton is the better defender, no doubt, but I wouldn't say that's the thing that "easily" puts him over the top.

It's been proven that Stockton was never a top 5 player in the league, he was never a top of the line MVP voting candidate. It's just a fact, and for those who say that Nash's numbers are "inflated", why can't the same argument apply to Stockton, since he did play with Karl Malone and his amazingly great offensive arsenal. Playing with Karl Malone was a HUGE beneficiary factor for Stockton, as Malone is arguably the greatest offensive pick 'n roll power forward of all-time. Malone's numbers scoring at a high volume rate, while keeping the same level of effectiveness help's Stockton a lot.

This is Nash, statistically it's been proven, the MVP voters know it, and his overall impact is significantly greater than that of Stockton.

AND please stop bringing up the game winner in the WCF against the Rockets, that itself is overrated, as it's considered to show Karl Malone showing a movie pick, AND it's probably like his only clutch moment ever in his entire career. John Stockton wasn't a good playoff performer by any means, he can't handle the same kind of the impact that Nash could BECAUSE he can't handle the same kind of volume scoring at the same level of efficiency.

[5DOM]

Explain to me how Nash's prime is better than Stockton's? 17/14 is better than 18/11 from a pure statistical standpoint

It's because a lot of Stockton's assists were what Raptors fans call "fake" assists

[meat tray]

AND please stop bringing up the game winner in the WCF against the Rockets, that itself is overrated, as it's considered to show Karl Malone showing a movie pick, AND it's probably like his only clutch moment ever in his entire career.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8591nmgoGqU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mgq1MBRyl8I

right...

[tsherkin]

One thing we need to remember is that while it's true that Stockton was a very good team defender and scrappy, he was pretty much as useless against quick, athletic PGs and big, muscle-y point guards as is Nash.

Payton beat up on Stockton, and he gave up big games to KJ and other guys of that sort on a regular basis. Stockton was a great team defender who played with the sort of dirty tricks you expect from veterans without dominant athleticism. He grabbed and he pulled and he hand-checked the crap out of people, set illegal screens whenever he could get away with it, took fistfuls of jersey, anything. That's what you do, right?

But as far as defensive impact in isolation, he wasn't that much better than Nash. He was a 6'1 white guy who had good end-to-end speed and lacked lateral quickness and bulk. Sound familiar?

People romanticize the past out of habit, and we're all guilty of it. Stockton was a very good team defender and in-era, he was a better defender than Nash because his dirty BS was very difficult to call. It would remain so now, only he'd get exposed more because hand-checking is entirely illegal, and not just sort of illegal but not really, the way it was in the 90s, especially the mid and late 90s.

[mysticbb]

Nash was a 19/10, 18/11 player... Stockton had several seasons at 17/14 on a slower pace team...

No, the Utah Jazz had an average of 97.3 possessions per game between 1987/88 and 1991/92 (the only seasons in which Stockton was close to your 14 apg) while the Phoenix Suns averaged 96.0 possessions per game since Nash arrived there in 2004/05.

Add the fact that you get prime Stockton for about 9-10 years, and this is no contest

Uh, that is pretty interesting, because Nash is still producing numbers which are similar to those in his years with the Mavericks (2000/01 to 2003/04). The difference is just a different role on those two teams, but his PER is around 21.5 +/- 2 for all those 10 years. He also played around 34 +/- 1.5 mpg during those years. Basically you will get Nash in his prime for 10 years.

I wouldn't say that this is not even a contest, but I still got Stockton in that comparison. In peak years they are pretty close, but Stockton's longevity, better defense and injury history wins it for him.

[C.Boshly]

Hilarous how people just look at the stats and pretend that they are all that matter.

Nash is a two time MVP candidate. Whether you believe he deserved those MVPs or not the fact is that he was top three both years and was a dominent player the last 4-5 years.

Nash's defense is vastly underrated. He gets alot of flak because his matchup problems with Tony Parker. With the current rules almost ANY PG in history would struggle to defend Tony and he is a bad matchup for Nash. It happens...

Parker is also a great player and has a finals MVP which people tend to overlook.

It is easy to rip on Nash's defense but when people look back at this era they are going to see Nash for what he is: a two time MVP, one of the most exciting PGs to ever play the game and a player who never played with a mobile defensive anchor which resulted in a lack of significant playoff success.


He is better than Stockton

[Harison]

@Baller 24, I respect you as poster, but this one? Its like Stockton have done something horrible to you

We've done this argument before, Nash is better.

Indeed we did, and in most (if not in every single thread) about it Stockton won as it should have been, including this one. It seems most who vote for Nash havent seen Stockton in prime, otherwise difference would be much greater than 2x. To put in the perspective, to say Nash is better is as absurd as to say Amare is better than Duncan Of course in specific areas it is true, but in the whole picture they are on the different levels, and there is no question about it.

Stockton's noted to fade in the playoffs, his numbers actually take a dip. He's not as clutch as Nash, and he can't handle scoring at a volume rate, while handling the same effectiveness as Nash.

You are overstating, lets take Stocktons peak: 89-91, regular season 17/14.5, Playoffs... 17/14.5 There is a minor dip in some stats, but nothing major. Lets look at Nash's peak '04-07: 17.5/11, Playoffs: 21/11.5. So Nash in his peak indeed buffed his game a bit more, but at the same time 3 more assists are worth more than 4 points. Then we have clutch play - both Stockton and Nash are pretty decent in this regard. Even though I value Nash's scoring a bit more than Stockton's, but better defense and extra assists more than make up for it, there is clutch defense too you know.

And based on who's observation is Stockton a "better" passer than Nash? At best, they're about equal, Nash makes some flat out amazing laser passes.

J Will did amazing passes too, is he in the conversation too? Lets be real here, Stockton was clearly a better passer, and not just "he/she thinks so", he has stats to prove it as well. Magic is almost the only one in convo for GOAT PG when we value strictly from PG perspective.

This is Nash, statistically it's been proven, the MVP voters know it, and his overall impact is significantly greater than that of Stockton.

Statistically Stockton was better, did you checked the stats even? MVP voters wouldnt have voted for Nash in the Golden era, and his overall impact is clearly lesser than Stockton's, unless few points per game is everything to you.

Few points about MVP voting:

1. If anyone is thinking Nash would get an MVP over prime Jordan, prime Magic and the rest of this level players, are obviously using something strong

2. Rarely if ever one gets MVP when you have a better teammate. Malone casted shadow in this regard. To put in the perspective, lets say Magic would have played with a prime Kareem, how many MVPs Magic would get? Most likely zero, and we are talking about GOAT PG.

3. Voting is done by the media, so who has more chance - non-charismatic player on the minor franchise, or show-star on the major franchise? You be the judge.

AND please stop bringing up the game winner in the WCF against the Rockets, that itself is overrated, as it's considered to show Karl Malone showing a movie pick, AND it's probably like his only clutch moment ever in his entire career. John Stockton wasn't a good playoff performer by any means, he can't handle the same kind of the impact that Nash could BECAUSE he can't handle the same kind of volume scoring at the same level of efficiency.

You was already presented with multiple links, and those are just the few of many. Plus didnt Oak posted above how Nash lead NBA with missed game winning shots, like 1 of 15? I dont remember exact numbers, but here is hard data:

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Data sample
Regular Seasons: '03-04, '04-05, '05-06, '06-07, '07-08, '08-09 (thru 2/4)
Playoffs: '03-04, '04-05, '05-06, '06-07, '07-08

Nash is nowhere to be seen, from like Top 70 players! There are many, many players ahead of Nash who are even considered as below average clutch performers.

[That Nicka]

How do people feel about prime Jason Kidd? IMO Kidd >> Nash even though Nash has 2 MVPs and Kidd has none... This MVP argument is pretty baseless.. As has been mentioned, Nash wouldnt have won an MVP in the 90s and possibly would have been behind Payton, Stockton, AND KJ

[Harison]

How do people feel about prime Jason Kidd? IMO Kidd >> Nash even though Nash has 2 MVPs and Kidd has none... This MVP argument is pretty baseless.. As has been mentioned, Nash wouldnt have won an MVP in the 90s and possibly would have been behind Payton, Stockton, AND KJ

I also agree Kidd was better than Nash, even though he has no MVPs to back him up. MVP is not that bad criterion if you put in the context, out of context it doesnt have much value.

[magicman1978]

I like to look at Asst to TO ratios for PGs. In Stockton's 8 year prime he had as Asst to TO ratio of 3.9. Pheonix Nash is at 3.1. Stockton averaged about 2.7 stls per game of those years, while Nash is at around .8. Stockton doesn't turn it over as much and he also creates more turnovers.

[tsherkin]

I don't think Kidd's significantly better than Nash. He's a lot worse offensively. Doesn't separate himself as a passer compared to Nash and remains far, far worse as a scoring threat.

The defense and rebounding are nice, but he's just as vulnerable to quick, athletic players, so the defensive aspect doesn't gain him much. So you end up weighing rebounding from your PG against vastly superior shooting and better playmaking.

I think Nash wins that one, personally.

Stockton is a little more interesting. I don't see a difference that favors Stockton as a passer and Nash is clearly the superior shooter and flat-out scorer. The Stockton/Nash comparison is a difficult one, but generally speaking, I'd rather have Nash.

Stockton's playmaking was not better than Nash's, it was basically the same, sans a few of Nash's creative passes.

Stockton produced some thunderous AST% rates and a turnover ratio only a little higher than Nash's (about 10% high AST rate and 2% higher TOV rate, though this is influenced heavily by Nash's time in Phoenix the first time around), but he also didn't really do a lot of the same kind of aggressive set up action the way Nash still frequently engages in, and by Nash's current age, Stockton was busy choking it up in the 98 Finals and looking ancient and useless against the Bulls, while it's functionally apparent Nash is still a dangerous scoring weapon.

Stockton was a great PG, but even in-era, he wasn't the best. Magic was better, Isiah actually won titles (and beat Magic's Lakers and Larry's Celtics), Payton was more dominant and roughly as successful in terms of career achievements, there's an argument for KJ... Alvin Robertson was consistently selected ahead of Stockton in the late 80s and early 90s, right as Stockton was exploding at his peak.

I mean, Stockton didn't even make the All-NBA first team until 93-94. He made the 1st team twice. Nash did it in three straight years, and has a similar load of competition around him these days.

In 88, Magic and Jordan were ahead of him on the 1st team. Same in 89, 90 and 91. Finally, Magic retired and options opened up for Stockton. This all minding that Isiah was never the same after the second title season in 89-90. So that's another competitor reduced so that Stockton could compete with the elite guards. 92 came around and wouldn't you know it? Drexler was ahead of him and Tim Hardaway alongside Stockton on the second team. Mark Price beat Stockton to the 1st team in 93.

In 94, vindication. Jordan retired, so a spot opened up. Spree and Stockton were first-teamers. In 95, still no Jordan, Penny made the first team with Stockton. 96, MJ's back and Penny (also a PG) beats Stockton to the 1st team (which Stockton would never make again). 97, Finals appearance, and who's on the 1st team with MJ? Tim Hardaway. 98? Payton. Stockton's effectively done at this point. 3rd team in 97, and a last-gasp 3rd team in 97 behind Kidd and Tim Hardaway.

So, at various points in his career, even in his prime, he had Mark Price, Gary Payton and both Tim and Penny Hardaway made the 1st team ahead of Stockton while playing the same position.

Stockton's frequently overrated from nostalgia. He was a good player who produced huge stats and played very efficiently within Sloan's system. He was better than some remember because he was clever, pretty quick in the open court and could pass with his left hand. He was also a scrappy little SOB who would do whatever he could to get an edge, especially if the refs couldn't see.

But Nash is better preserved at 35 than was Stockton, a comparable passer (if Amare was as good as Malone, I don't think this would actually be a question; Malone was actually also a good post iso scorer, not just a mid-range shooter and PnR/transition finisher), a far better shooter, and somewhat underrated for his team D.

I don't claim that Nash was a lot better than Stockton, but there's a reasonable, legitimate argument that Nash is a superior player. It's no joke, and it most certainly isn't "easily" Stockton.

Nash made the 1st Team in 05 ahead of Wade, Ray-Ray, Kobe and Arenas. In 06, he made it over Billups, Wade, Arenas and AI. In 07, he made it over Arenas, McGrady, Billups and Wade.

That's a pretty consistent run of awesome. To some extent, the selections over Wade are prompted by injuries. But of those seasons, he played 77, 75 and then 51 games. Wade won a title and a Finals MVP in 06, and was in prime form in both 05 and 06, managing 24/5/7 and then 27/6/7.

And Nash still beat him out. And in 2006, that MVP was well-deserved. No Amare, running with Diaw, Marion and some good shooters, and he took the Suns to the WCFs. That was pretty epic.

Steve Nash is a great player. He gets a lot of flak for the 05 MVP and because people perceive that he's not a great defender, but I can tell you this; Tony Parker isn't a lot better on man D, nor is Chris Paul. Nash doesn't rack up a crapload of steals like Paul, but they all have similar vulnerabilities in isolation. Be it size or be it speed, most point guards aren't especially good man defenders, so it's a weak thing to point out, and in comparison with Stockton, man defense doesn't favor Johnnie Boy anymore than it detracts from Nash.

[That Nicka]

If Nash and Malone played together who would be the best player on the team?

[magicman1978]

I think you definitely have to give the advantage to Stockton on defense. You can't just overlook that. Stockton made the All NBA Defensive second team 5 times. No way he was going to get first team competing with guys like Jordan, Dumars, Payton, Robertson. Nash's defense isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be, but I still give the nod to Stockton. I remember him being very pesky and pressuring the ball handler. I don't recall seeing Nash really do that too often.

Having said that, I'm still not sure who I would pick because Nash is one of the best shooters I have ever seen.

[Jimmy76]

If Nash and Malone played together who would be the best player on the team?

well Malone is the GOAT PF by most accounts but the PF has the least competition of all the positions career wise id say

but probably Malone

[LebronsCavs]

Prime?, it's clearly Nash.

It's been done alot so basically, can Stockton win a MVP? Surely not.