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DOC SUCKS!!!!!

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Post#81 » by ParticleMan » Fri Jan 4, 2008 4:27 pm

Tricky Ricky wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Some of you guys are acting like Doc is God, the past 3 seasons everyone on this board wanted him out of town and now some of you are acting like hes the best coach ever. I dont know if you guys are new members or just think since our records good hes good. If you take away KG youd prob have a below 500 team and would all be wanting Doc fired. Trust me the players have a bigger impact on the record than Doc, I think my Dog would have a above 500 record coaching a team this good. I know the type of responses Im going to get for this so Im not going to bother responding on this post, I dont know if some of you guys are bandwagon jumpers or really have been watching him coach the last 3 seasons but in my opinion ON THIS TEAM its the players NOT DOC!



Many people wanted Doc fired the last couple of years, but they were idiots too for putting all the blame on Doc when it was the players that sucked. How's Randy Wittman doing with those same players? Oh yeah, even worse than Doc. Now Doc has the players, and the Doc Haters were saying how Doc was certain to screw it up somehow, that we wouldn't play up to our potential, that he would blow all the close games. i think 27-3 has pretty much answered that, don't you think?

Here's things I give Doc credit for:
1) Developing our young guys to where they were valuable trading chips. While many of you were going crazy about not playing [insert your binky], the fact is we were able to pull off one of the greatest offseasons in history because the players actually had value. Yes Ainge drafted them but that's only the start. The rest is the coaching staff.
2) Creating great team unity. Look at Detroit and SA, you never hear abuot these teams bickering and taking subtle shots at each other. You may not think it's a big deal because there is no stat to measure it, but if you've played you know that it's a significant factor over the course of a season.
3) Installing an efficient offensive and defensive system. He's gotten Pierce to play at an efficiency level well above what he was doing under Obie/Pitino. He's blended the other Big Two in very well, with a nbice distributino of shots. Defensively, he doesn't get as much credit as TT, but part of the success of being a Big Kahuna is knowing when to stay out of the way and let the Little Kahunas do their job.

These are the main reasons we are 27-3. Yes, we have the talent too, and so far have been pretty injury-free, that's a big part of it. That's necessary but not sufficient; the coaching has to be there too. But Doc has ADDED to our success, it hasn't been in spite of Doc. The problem is that during the 2.5 hours of gametime, these things aren't obvious to the viewer, and they don't show up directly in the stat sheet. But you have to understand hoops to know that these are really the important things, not whether Doc called a timeout at the exactly right moment in the 30th game of the season.

As for being a sub-500 team w/o KG, not only is that wrong, but it's a stupid argument anyway. Take away a team's best player and most teams would be under 500. That's not the coaches fault, that's because the players aren't good enough. The NBA is a star's league, if you take away your star then your team suffers. I don't see what that has to do with the coach.
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Post#82 » by Tricky Ricky » Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:10 pm

ParticleMan wrote:-= original quote snipped =-




Many people wanted Doc fired the last couple of years, but they were idiots too for putting all the blame on Doc when it was the players that sucked. How's Randy Wittman doing with those same players? Oh yeah, even worse than Doc. Now Doc has the players, and the Doc Haters were saying how Doc was certain to screw it up somehow, that we wouldn't play up to our potential, that he would blow all the close games. i think 27-3 has pretty much answered that, don't you think?

Here's things I give Doc credit for:
1) Developing our young guys to where they were valuable trading chips. While many of you were going crazy about not playing [insert your binky], the fact is we were able to pull off one of the greatest offseasons in history because the players actually had value. Yes Ainge drafted them but that's only the start. The rest is the coaching staff.
2) Creating great team unity. Look at Detroit and SA, you never hear abuot these teams bickering and taking subtle shots at each other. You may not think it's a big deal because there is no stat to measure it, but if you've played you know that it's a significant factor over the course of a season.
3) Installing an efficient offensive and defensive system. He's gotten Pierce to play at an efficiency level well above what he was doing under Obie/Pitino. He's blended the other Big Two in very well, with a nbice distributino of shots. Defensively, he doesn't get as much credit as TT, but part of the success of being a Big Kahuna is knowing when to stay out of the way and let the Little Kahunas do their job.

These are the main reasons we are 27-3. Yes, we have the talent too, and so far have been pretty injury-free, that's a big part of it. That's necessary but not sufficient; the coaching has to be there too. But Doc has ADDED to our success, it hasn't been in spite of Doc. The problem is that during the 2.5 hours of gametime, these things aren't obvious to the viewer, and they don't show up directly in the stat sheet. But you have to understand hoops to know that these are really the important things, not whether Doc called a timeout at the exactly right moment in the 30th game of the season.

As for being a sub-500 team w/o KG, not only is that wrong, but it's a stupid argument anyway. Take away a team's best player and most teams would be under 500. That's not the coaches fault, that's because the players aren't good enough. The NBA is a star's league, if you take away your star then your team suffers. I don't see what that has to do with the coach.


Like I said Im not going to respond to any of your arguments, but take the worst coach in the NBA and give me a guess of what our record would be right now with that coach.

Also ya Wittman is doing worse than Doc but he doesnt have a Paul Pierce on his team. Switch Wittman and Doc and Wittman would be the one with 20+ wins and Doc less than 10 wins. You Cant argue with that.
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Post#83 » by GonzoLays » Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:17 pm

Tricky Ricky wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Like I said Im not going to respond to any of your arguments, but take the worst coach in the NBA and give me a guess of what our record would be right now with that coach.


What do you know about coaching, Tricky Ricky? What is Doc doing that is so wrong in your opinion.

This should be good.
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Post#84 » by Tricky Ricky » Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:21 pm

GonzoLays wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



What do you know about coaching, Tricky Ricky? What is Doc doing that is so wrong in your opinion.

This should be good.


Like I said Im not responding anymore, whatever I say people will disagree with, however if I said the same things any of the past 3 years people wouldve agreed with me. I guess since were 27-3 I really shouldnt be complaining
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Post#85 » by CelticsWhat! » Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:32 pm

Tricky Ricky wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Like I said Im not responding anymore, whatever I say people will disagree with, however if I said the same things any of the past 3 years people wouldve agreed with me. I guess since were 27-3 I really shouldnt be complaining


Those words should never be spoken. If you're not responding anymore, you should never be saying "Like I said". You should just go off into the distance and forget you ever started this stupid thread.
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Post#86 » by ParticleMan » Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:44 pm

Tricky Ricky wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Like I said Im not going to respond to any of your arguments, but take the worst coach in the NBA and give me a guess of what our record would be right now with that coach.

Also ya Wittman is doing worse than Doc but he doesnt have a Paul Pierce on his team. Switch Wittman and Doc and Wittman would be the one with 20+ wins and Doc less than 10 wins. You Cant argue with that.



Right, because you CAN'T respond to my arguments. I list out a good set of well-reasoned arguments, and all you can say is "Doc sucks, I know it, everyone knows it, everyone thought that last year too." Um, no. Some of us who were paying attention realized that 24 wins was in large part because Pierce missed half the season, our players weren't very good, we were showcasing Blount and Ricky, and we cared more about lottery balls than wins. Doc did what he could under the circumstances.

I agree that if you switch Doc and Wittman then we would still have 20+ wins and Minny would still be terrible, but that isn't a reflection of COACHES, it's a reflection of PLAYERS. That doesn't mean Doc sucks.

Face it, you've got a massive agenda against Doc and no amount of reason will convince you. Oh well, you're not the first on this board to stake out an agenda that's later proven wrong.
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Post#87 » by Joselo16 » Sat Jan 5, 2008 2:13 am

Todays game we have Tony killing the Griz in the first half and we go with Ray Allen who is struggling in the game until 3 minutes are left in the third. Why? Aren't we trying to conserve these guys?
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Post#88 » by BillessuR6 » Sat Jan 5, 2008 3:07 am

One of the worst coaching jobs of the year for Rivers today.

He just has to remind us every few games how terrible he is at game managment...Just so we don`t forget.
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Post#89 » by jjwalker » Sat Jan 5, 2008 3:33 am

what 28-3? Yeah, doc is a bad coach. Please, do you want ML Carr, Pitino or Jim O'Brien back. Jesus.
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Post#90 » by Joselo16 » Sat Jan 5, 2008 4:22 am

I don't hate Doc just the way he manages the game, and I truly believe any players coach could guide this team to a 28-7 start! Name one game that you can clearly say Doc has won this season? I will give you that he hasn't cost us any either (well maybe the Detroit one).

Also does the record prevent us from complaining about Doc's mistakes? I know a win is a win but the flaws are still there and visible.
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Post#91 » by Illuminati » Sat Jan 5, 2008 9:06 am

You're God damn 28-3. Some of you are mentally instable...

Would you prefer to be a lotto team again?
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Post#92 » by Bleeding Green » Sat Jan 5, 2008 9:23 am

Why can't people separate the 28-3 record from the critiques on Doc Rivers?

No one would rather be a lotto team, but Doc Rivers is not infallible. Just because the Celtics are in first place doesn't mean that you can't point out faults.
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Post#93 » by Joselo16 » Sat Jan 5, 2008 11:07 am

Bleeding Green wrote:Why can't people separate the 28-3 record from the critiques on Doc Rivers?

No one would rather be a lotto team, but Doc Rivers is not infallible. Just because the Celtics are in first place doesn't mean that you can't point out faults.


Thats exactly what I'm saying!

I want to be a great team that keeps improving on its flaws to become a championship team. Last season everyone complained about Doc and guess what? Only the team changed, the guy is still the same. We are 28-3 because of our players not our coach. We have simply out-talented most of the teams we have played up until now (thus 28-3) making the coach irrelevant, but there will come a time when our coach's in-game management will become more important (playoffs) and that flaw could cause us a title.
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Post#94 » by bceltic55 » Sat Jan 5, 2008 3:08 pm

Can't we ever be happy. What flaws do you see in Doc's coaching. We are #1 in defense and the offense is very good. Our bench could be a little stronger, but that is on Ainge, not Doc to bring in players.
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Post#95 » by Joselo16 » Sat Jan 5, 2008 3:26 pm

I can't speak for everyone else but I'm very happy with this team, its just that I feel like proper substitutions and timeouts are little things that become important in playoff games and in my opinion Doc is unable to do either properly.

The title of this does not express my opinion, because I don't think Doc sucks as a coach but he does need to improve on it.

I do agree that we need to add to the bench, thats the difference between Detroit and us.
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Post#96 » by bru87tr » Sat Jan 5, 2008 6:42 pm

I think doc does better rotations at the right times (most of the time) with veterans mixed with some young guys, than he does with just a young team.

I dont have any real complaints on how he has handled this team.
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Post#97 » by ParticleMan » Sat Jan 5, 2008 7:39 pm

I think it's fine to complain about Doc's fault (and game management is certainly one where he isn't the best), but you also have to realize the positives that Doc brings. Most of those are behind-the-scenes type stuff, things you only hear about when it's bad. Anytime you are 28-3 the coach has to be doing some good things too.

It's fine to point out bad stuff, just don't ignore the positives as well. The trouble is no coach is perfect. I'd much rather have Doc here than say Rick Carlisle, who is a much better game manager but somehow poisons the locker room and inspire hatred wherever he goes. Or Obie, who also manages games better but has gimmick schemes.
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Post#98 » by Joyeuse » Sat Jan 5, 2008 9:43 pm

Actually, I think Doc has done a good job this year. Criticisms that should be aimed at players are often incorrectly aimed at Doc. When a player struggles, people blame Doc for leaving him in. When the players fail to execute a play, people blame Doc for drawing up the play. When the players fail to prevent the opposing team from going on a 9-0 run, people blame Doc for not calling a timeout.

The reality is that there is only so much a coach can do after the tipoff. Sure, he can make substitutions, call timeouts, and draw up plays, but no matter what, it's still up to the players to execute. It's extremely difficult for us to determine how much a coach is responsible for individual plays in a game, because we can't separate the players' execution from the drawn up play without knowing all the assignments beforehand, and the reality is that as fans, we just don't know for sure what the coach was planning. The coach's primary influence on his team is in preparing players for the games, not during the games themselves. The type of "in-game management" a lot of people are looking for here is akin to psychic powers. You can't expect a coach to always know exactly exactly how effective a lineup or player will play on any given night. Considering how back-and-forth and fast-paced basketball is, and how fast huge swings in momentum occur, you can't expect a coach to know beforehand whether, after the other team makes a six-point run, it will add another six points or his lineup will make up those six points.

That said, from what I can observe about Doc, I think he's doing a good job. He has a successful, fluid team offense. I don't know how much he's involved on defense, but the Celtics have the best team defense in the whole NBA. He staggers the new three's minutes so one of the perimeter stars is always on the floor to prevent scoring stagnation. He rarely leaves lineups on the floor that are at risk of being dominated by the other team's offense.

From what we are able to actually observe, what more can he plausibly do? Call a few more timeouts? Iffy, at best. Often, scoring runs end abruptly and without reason, and that it's just part of basketball. There's no reason to treat every 10-3 run as an emergency. Change the rotations? I wouldn't recommend it; we have a really successful rotation going on right now, and changing the substitution patterns to mess with it would just screw that up. Overall, the Celtics are playing great, and I doubt there's much Doc can change to make them play better. Best to avoid tampering with the good things they have going on.

I have nothing against criticizing individual coaching moves, but I'm completely unconvinced that any of the hindsight mistakes people are coming up with, where they actually are mistakes and not just failure at being psychic, have demonstrated any sort of noticeable pattern of incompetence.
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Post#99 » by Celtics_History_Lesson » Sat Jan 5, 2008 10:06 pm

The Celtics traded away everything for a championship contender for this season, the only thing that isn't championship material is the coach.
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Post#100 » by Joselo16 » Sun Jan 6, 2008 1:08 am

What happened in the first quarter of this Detroit game? No timeout?
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