Big Three Minutes Per Game

DJToLarry · Post #1 » by **DJToLarry** » Tue Jan 8, 2008 9:47 pm

Big Three minutes per game:

Garnett: Career: 38.2 Season: 35.0
Pierce: Career: 37.8 Season: 38.6
Allen: Career: 37.5 Season: 37.8

Have to hand it to the coaching staff. Garnett is the most important player on the team and they have managed to cut his minutes (by almost 10%) without sacrificing wins.

Of the three I was most concerned with his minutes at the beginning of the season given the appeared lack of big men on the roster. Let's hope this keeps up.

Interestingly Duncan has a career MPG of 37.3, but since the start of the 04-05 season has averaged 34.0 MPG.

humblebum · Post #2 » by **humblebum** » Tue Jan 8, 2008 10:02 pm

I'd love for Doc and co. to get Ray Ray under 35 minutes. Not because I'm overly worried about injuries but moreso to get Tony Allen more consistent playing time. If Doc also sticks to playing Glen Davis or Powe at the PF spot rather than Posey we could also see a slight cut back in Pierce's MPG.

Overall though I agree that the coaching staff has done a good job getting these guys minutes down. A little more tweaking and I think the C's will be better able to keep guys fresh throughout the whole game with the Trio getting major minutes in some of the more hotly contested matchups.

Post #3 » by **I love heinsohn** » Tue Jan 8, 2008 11:39 pm

Better to look at these things by month IMO. First month of the year?
Ray 39.7 mpg
Pierce 38.3 mpg
KG 37.2 mpg

December plus the first three games of January?
Pierce 40 mpg
Ray 36 mpg
KG 33.1 mpg

Doc has been doing a good job as the season goes along and I expect him to look to get Pierce a bit more rest as the season continues.

Joyeuse · Post #4 » by **Joyeuse** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 12:41 am

DJToLarry wrote:Interestingly Duncan has a career MPG of 37.3, but since the start of the 04-05 season has averaged 34.0 MPG.

Duncan has been suffering from nagging injuries the past few years. When he was younger, he used to rack up a good 40 minutes a game, but now the Spurs have to worry about keeping him healthy for the playoffs.

MaxwellSmart · Post #5 » by **MaxwellSmart** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 3:13 am

I'd give the credit for KG's minutes to the refs....he's had to sit quite a bit in a few games cause of some BS calls.

Tricky Ricky · Post #6 » by **Tricky Ricky** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 1:46 pm

I just cant stand how Doc plays these guys in the 4th quarters of blow outs.

CelticsWhat! · Post #7 » by **CelticsWhat!** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 2:13 pm

Tricky Ricky wrote:I just cant stand how Doc plays these guys in the 4th quarters of blow outs.

Quit your bitchin. How many blow outs has the team had recently? And Doc has the task of getting a bunch of guys who where put together a couple months ago to beat teams that have been together for years. If he wants to get a few extra reps in at the end of games, so be it. You talk about Doc playing his starters late in blowouts. But it's not as if they're going up against the opposing teams' scrubs. They keep their starters in too.

I found it pretty amusing when people justified what Lamar Odom did to Ray Allen because the Celtics had their starters in. Well what is Lamar Odom?? What is Kobe Bryant?? :roll:

Post #8 » by **ParticleMan** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 4:15 pm

Tricky Ricky wrote:I just cant stand how Doc plays these guys in the 4th quarters of blow outs.

That's why they're blowouts. We've seen what happens when Doc tries to buy his starters extra rest... the game quickly turns into a non-blowout.

tombattor · Post #9 » by **tombattor** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 4:23 pm

I think once we have playoffs, home court, etc. clinched, we'll see these guys get more rest.

Personally, I don't think a few extra minutes now means that much in the long run. However, having the luxury of giving the Big 3 a game or two off at the end of the season will mean a lot to their being fresh in the playoffs.

Post #10 » by **darrendaye** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 4:39 pm

I understand the possible reasons Doc may still have his MPG high, but, I would love to see Pierce's minutes in the 35 range. I think the nature of his offensive game and the focus he's displaying on defense require significant expenditure of energy. Ideally, you'd hope that reducing his minutes would equate to having the legs to take it strong to the rack more frequently.

That said, I can't get on the coaching staff for the way they've handled the minutes allocation of the Big 3 to date.

DJToLarry · Post #11 » by **DJToLarry** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 5:12 pm

Joyeuse wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Duncan has been suffering from nagging injuries the past few years. When he was younger, he used to rack up a good 40 minutes a game, but now the Spurs have to worry about keeping him healthy for the playoffs.

Since the start of the 04-05 season no one on the Spurs has played more than 35 MPG.

Joyeuse · Post #12 » by **Joyeuse** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 5:25 pm

DJToLarry wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Since the start of the 04-05 season no one on the Spurs has played more than 35 MPG.

Um... yeah. That would be because the only player on the Spurs who has played more than 35 minutes a game for a full season since the 90's has been Duncan. Hence, when he stopped playing almost 40 minutes a game in 04-05 (I think he sprained his ankle that season, and suffered through plantar fasciitis the next season, explaining the sharp reduction in minutes), there was nobody on the Spurs playing more than 35 minutes a game. Duncan's drop in minutes wasn't some artificial change in team philosophy; he started to strike physical limitations, so the Spurs have been playing it safe with him in a way they didn't have to when he was young.

Post #13 » by **ParticleMan** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 5:40 pm

tombattor wrote:I think once we have playoffs, home court, etc. clinched, we'll see these guys get more rest.

Personally, I don't think a few extra minutes now means that much in the long run. However, having the luxury of giving the Big 3 a game or two off at the end of the season will mean a lot to their being fresh in the playoffs.

This is exactly right. The time to keep mins down isn't now, it's at the end of the season. In fact, giving them a few games off near the end would be optimal.

It's funny that all the early panic over the mins has dissipated. Really, our coaches and front office are not a bunch of morons. There really is a plan here, and it's very sensible. Play them a lot early on, let them get confidence (check), let them win a whole bunch of games (check), let them gel (check), let them get a big lead towards the end of the year (we'll see, but it looks good), then cruise into the playoffs with fresh bodies and minds (hopefully).

DJToLarry · Post #14 » by **DJToLarry** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 6:21 pm

Joyeuse wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Um... yeah. That would be because the only player on the Spurs who has played more than 35 minutes a game for a full season since the 90's has been Duncan. Hence, when he stopped playing almost 40 minutes a game in 04-05 (I think he sprained his ankle that season, and suffered through plantar fasciitis the next season, explaining the sharp reduction in minutes), there was nobody on the Spurs playing more than 35 minutes a game. Duncan's drop in minutes wasn't some artificial change in team philosophy; he started to strike physical limitations, so the Spurs have been playing it safe with him in a way they didn't have to when he was young.

I'll give you that injuries have played a part in Duncan's decreased minutes. So maybe it is a result of injuries to Duncan/Manu, but Parker and Bowen don't play big minutes either. If they are spreading out the minutes as a result of injuries or by design, it is a great system to have your team fresh in the playoffs.

Pistons 06-07
Rip 36.8
Prince 36.6
Billups 36.2

Suns 06-07
Marion 37.6
Bell 37.4
Nash 35.3

Mavs 06-07
Dirk 36.1
Terry 35.2
Howard 35.1

Spurs 06-07
Duncan 34.1
Parker 32.5
Bowen 30.0
Manu 27.5

Spurs 07-08
Parker 34.9
Duncan 33.1
Bowen 31.3
Manu 29.3

I just think we can learn a little something from these guys.[/b]

Post #15 » by **UGA Hayes** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 6:35 pm

I'm much more content with the minutes now. Also from subjectively watching the games he is giving more and more rope to our bench guys which also makes me happy. With the exception of small substitution differences from time to time, I think Doc is doing a great job.

Joyeuse · Post #16 » by **Joyeuse** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 6:57 pm

DJToLarry wrote:I'll give you that injuries have played a part in Duncan's decreased minutes. So maybe it is a result of injuries to Duncan/Manu, but Parker and Bowen don't play big minutes either.

Bowen really isn't good enough to deserve big minutes, and to some extent he's competing with Manu, Finley, and Barry for minutes, so it's really quite impressive he's getting over 30 minutes a game. This is kind of like how Posey doesn't get "big minutes" on the Celtics; he's getting as many minutes as he really deserves.

Parker's a fair example of a player who receives reduced minutes compared to what he could handle, and maybe there's something to that.

I would be more likely to support minutes reduction for Ray Allen than any other players on the Celtics because he's having some recurring injury problems this season. Garnett is already playing modest minutes. Pierce is the youngest of the three, and he's looking pretty healthy this season. I don't think we can drastically reduce his minutes without losing something in games at the same time. Don't forget that the Spurs have a more developed bench than the Celtics.

If they are spreading out the minutes as a result of injuries or by design, it is a great system to have your team fresh in the playoffs.

The Spurs aren't the only model of franchise success.

The Pistons, Suns, and Mavs have all played their starters big minutes in the regular season in the recent past, and they've all had postseason success. Sacramento played some of their starters big minutes when they were successful. Miami played Wade big minutes in the regular season. LeBron James and Larry Hughes both played a lot of regular season minutes last year. The Spurs did great with Duncan playing huge minutes in the regular season before his injury problems. Same for the Lakers with Kobe. Karl Malone played big minutes into his late 30's, and the Jazz had plenty playoff success (though they did give Stockton plenty rest - not that Stockton is a fair comparison to Paul Pierce, considering the athletic gap there). Then you have Jordan and Pippen.

To be perfectly honest, I don't know what the effect of playing healthy players a lot of minutes in the regular season is, but historically, plenty of teams have managed to get away with it and still played well in the playoffs. The Spurs' method of restricting their best players' minutes to so few minutes in the regular season is actually historically uncommon.

freakon0mics · Post #17 » by **freakon0mics** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 7:18 pm

Getting the minutes down to 35 minutes a night is crucial for playoff success. It doesn't really matter what other teams have done to their players in the past. Your playing a physical and finesse sport for over 38 minutes a game, your going to get tired sooner or later. We have a solid bench and it would be nice to get some young guys some time on the court. I think Doc is thinking the same thing. If the situation is right on the court, he'll play guys like Rondo, Posey, TA, and Davis more time.

Post #18 » by **UGA Hayes** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 7:23 pm

Joyeuse wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

The Spurs aren't the only model of franchise success.

The Pistons, Suns, and Mavs have all played their starters big minutes in the regular season in the recent past, and they've all had postseason success. Sacramento played some of their starters big minutes when they were successful. Miami played Wade big minutes in the regular season. LeBron James and Larry Hughes both played a lot of regular season minutes last year. The Spurs did great with Duncan playing huge minutes in the regular season before his injury problems. Same for the Lakers with Kobe. Karl Malone played big minutes into his late 30's, and the Jazz had plenty playoff success (though they did give Stockton plenty rest - not that Stockton is a fair comparison to Paul Pierce, considering the athletic gap there). Then you have Jordan and Pippen.

To be perfectly honest, I don't know what the effect of playing healthy players a lot of minutes in the regular season is, but historically, plenty of teams have managed to get away with it and still played well in the playoffs. The Spurs' method of restricting their best players' minutes to so few minutes in the regular season is actually historically uncommon.

A lot of people (read me) believe that the Mavs, Suns, and Pistons have underachieved in the playoffs and attribute a portion of that blame to the heavy minutes. I'm not sure about the Pistons but in the Mavs and Suns' best seasons both teams play their big dogs a lot of minutes and both teams saw a dropoff in play before the playoffs, let alone in the playoffs, even if it didn't obviously reflect in their record. At the end of the day I see fewer drawbacks to fewer minutes than more minutes.

Post #19 » by **Darth Celtic** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 7:37 pm

if we lock up 1 seed, i'm guessing all the big 3 will play less then 30mpg and rondo, ta, baby, posey will get huge mins to tune up for playoffs.

and people talk about kg getting too old, he's 1 month younger the Duncan if u can believe that.

nobody would have questioned the kg trade if it was the duncan trade because of age.

tombattor · Post #20 » by **tombattor** » Wed Jan 9, 2008 7:41 pm

Darth Celtic wrote:if we lock up 1 seed, i'm guessing all the big 3 will play less then 30mpg and rondo, ta, baby, posey will get huge mins to tune up for playoffs.

and people talk about kg getting too old, he's 1 month younger the Duncan if u can believe that.

nobody would have questioned the kg trade if it was the duncan trade because of age.

Well, the difference between KG and Duncan in that sense is this. It's been proven that you can win a title with Duncan. As good as KG is, you don't know if you can with KG... yet