for all KG's suppoused intensity....

[Relative Autonomy]

he's a pretty soft player, especially for someone at the four spot. i know i may get flamed for this but we keep hearing about his "intensity" and, meanwhile, he shies away from playing down low, shoots a lot of jumpers, and rebounds poorly but swears a lot. is swearing a lot and pounding the ball against your head the definition of intensity?

last night Jamison just bodied up him, boxed him and shamefully out rebounded him. We hear he has changed the culture of the team and clearly puts a lot effort on the floor and demands a lot from his teammates but, to me, he often seems more bark than bite. Right now, the Celtics best low post scorer is Pierce. It should be KG but "dosen't like to" play were he is most effective. He needs to go down low, and get the **** rebound. I don't care about "intensity." I care about basketball and right now he is not doing what everyone claims he is great at.

[Albanian Damien]

Yeah lets trade him. He hasn't done jack for this team. We're in the same position as last year.

[jim todd]

he's a pretty soft player, especially for someone at the four spot. i know i may get flamed for this but we keep hearing about his "intensity" and, meanwhile, he shies away from playing down low, shoots a lot of jumpers, and rebounds poorly but swears a lot. is swearing a lot and pounding the ball against your head the definition of intensity?

last night Jamison just bodied up him, boxed him and shamefully out rebounded him. We hear he has changed the culture of the team and clearly puts a lot effort on the floor and demands a lot from his teammates but, to me, he often seems more bark than bite. Right now, the Celtics best low post scorer is Pierce. It should be KG but "dosen't like to" play were he is most effective. He needs to go down low, and get the **** rebound. I don't care about "intensity." I care about basketball and right now he is not doing what everyone claims he is great at.

you probably should get flamed if your main concern is rebounds. garnett happens to have led the league in rebounds for the past four years. his rebounding numbers are down this year but he's just outside of the top ten as it currently stands. to say he "rebounds poorly" is simply wrong. and of course he has helped lead the celts to a 30-5 start. that being said, i can see why you didn't like last night's game in particular.

[Rondo_Fan]

You can't judge by one game. If you do, then Pierce has not been our best low post scorer because all he has done for the past couple of games is jack up threes. You judge by the long term. Is your point that KG is not intense and is not a good rebounder over the long term?

[cfan79]

I have nothing bad to say about one of the best players in the league and leading all star vote getter. Sure he could be under the boards more, but if he was he wouldn't be able to set others up under the basket.

[darrendaye]

I think it's fair to say that there's never been a perfect player. Garnett's game is predicated more on quickness than strength. To criticize a someone for not playing within himself is somewhat foolish. Covering up weaknesses is the job of the coach and the general manager.

[BrokenLeftyJumper]

It should be KG but "dosen't like to" play were he is most effective.

This is a big time misconception. Don't just act like KG is a dominating low post player because he's a great power forward. He's an above average low post scorer but I don't think you can necessarily say thats where he's most effective.

His turnaround jumpshot is absolutely unblockable but it's still not a shot he can hit more than 50% of the time. When he gets good position in close, then it becomes unstoppable, but KG can't bull his way into good position when the other defender has 50 pounds on him.

To me, KG is most effective in the screen roll from the high post because his jumper is absolutely deadly from around 18 feet. He's got just as good a jumper as Dirk does from that range.

KG's game is much more face up than low post, that doesn't make him 'soft.' Just how swearing and beating your chest shouldn't make you intense, getting down on the box and posting up every single time doesn't necessarily make you tough.

[Relative Autonomy]

i never said KG wasn't a great player, wasn't the reason for the Celtics turn around, that we should trade him, or that last night was a referendum on his entire career but thanks for the knee-jerk responses. What I did say is that he is soft. We hear all this talk about his "intensity," like he has possessed by some other worldly basketball power. I just think KG and the team would be better if he spent more time down low, playing like a 4 and less time being "intense" and punching himself and swearing, while hiding on the perimeter and avoiding the physical game.

I mean this has been the biggest knock against KG his entire career. He is soft. He gets to the line very infrequently, he shoots more jumpers than anything else, he shies away from contact, he doesn't play down low often, and he doesn't box out all the time, relying on his athleticism for rebounds.

A lot people give KG and his "intensity" all the credit for this team bringing this team around. KG may have given the team a real shot in the arm in terms of motivation and certainly provides a defensive anchor the Celtics haven't had in a long time but in terms of toughness he is leaves a lot be desired. he is also pretty weak as a go to scorer. I am not saying that he needs perfect. I just think that this KG is so "intense" trope, allows him to get away with playing soft and masks some glaring holes in his game. People on this board rip into Pierce an insane amount. KG, for reasons I don't understand, is untouchable and that is bull. If KG gets all the credit for turning the team around he deserves some of the criticism that normally is just reserved for Pierce.

KG is soft. It hurts his game and his team. I don't know if its something he can overcome or if its his enduring weakness but it hurts the team and no one talks about it becuase he is so "intense," whatever that means.

[darrendaye]

It only hurts a team that doesn't, or didn't, know what they were getting. And if I could offer some advice, take it or leave it, but I'd probably resist the urge to call out other people for knee-jerk reactions.

[BillessuR6]

KG is soft? You have a strange definition of soft.

He dosn`t have the bulk to play in the post. He isn`t as strong as someone like Duncan that is why he is more of a jumpshooter. That is his game. Always has been. We have Perk to fight with the big guys and protect KG.

Garnett is a very good post player but that is not his biggest strenght.
And to say he isn˙t a good rebounder is just laughable. A guy who has been leading the league in the last few years is a poor rebounder? Wow...

He is a top 5 player and you make him look like a second coming of Scalabrine! Nobody is perfect but KG in basketball sense is as close to it as anybody...

[reggielewis]

kg is a product of what the nba has and is becoming. there are more bigs that play outside now (dirk, jermaine, gasol, etc). KG's game has always been one of finesse, now could he take people off the dribble a bit more? Sure, but he is never going to be a true back to the basket type of guy. it is not his game.
Also about his intensity, to me his intensity is self intensity. It doesnt mean he has to go dunk on everyone and push people around, he uses it as self motivation and thats how he gets himself up. It just so happens that other players take on that persona, but thats KG's way of staying competitive.
I think the biggest problem we have right now, is that we are not using him as well as we were in pre-season and early in the season. If it was me , I would us ehim like the kings usd to use Cwebb. EVERYTHNG should run through him, and people should be cutting, screening etc and allowing him to be the general.

[humblebum]

Relative,

Here's the thing about your point: When you use the word "soft" with a player like KG people are just generally going to disagree because it's like the ultimate diss when it comes to criticizing basketball players. When you call a player "soft" your basically saying that he's not a competitor, is more concerned with preserving his body than in winning basketball games. That's the definition of "soft" in my book.

Now if you said that KG is "too perimeter oriented" which at times hurts the C's, people would be more inclined to follow your lead. I don't think that his intensity is at all a show, it has more to do with him just being himself and pumping up his teammates. In regards to his intensity, again I don't agree that "intensity" = toughness. They are two separate characteristics. Intensity to me means physical, mental, and emotional focus, or a type of single-minded focus on a goal. KG displays this focus on a near nightly basis (he's only had about 2-3 rough games all season). KG always tries to do what needs to be done to win a game. He prepares well for games by studying his opponents. He tries to keep all of his teammates on the same page. He's a leader.

Overall, I think your argument is quite flawed and is based more on emotion than on pure analytical reasoning. The guy isn't perfect and he's definitely not a Tim Duncan-esque 4-5 but for what his game is, for what he is physically the guy performs to at least 90% of his potential as a basketball player... not too many people can claim that type of level of performance based against their own potential standard.

[Rondo_Fan]

EVERYTHNG should run through him, and people should be cutting, screening etc and allowing him to be the general.

This isn't a bad idea.

I think that with some guys who play very effectively down low, like Big Al, they don't really have a choice about where to play because they don't have skills anywhere else (although he does have that little 10' jumper, I know). In the old days, you didn't have many 7 footers who could hit an 18' jumper, so of course they didn't play away from the basket. They couldn't. KG can hit the jumper and pass very effectively, so why shouldn't he play out from the basket some of the time? That helps keep the lane unclogged for when guys like Pierce want to slash to the hoop.

I think it's a valid criticism that a big guy doesn't want to play under the hoop, but I don't see an Antoine-like situation here.

[ParticleMan]

LMAO... 5 losses and it's open season on KG!!!

yes, KG is a big man who likes to shoot jumpers. but here's the thing... HE MAKES THEM. as for not rebounding, last night was not the best performance by anyone including KG, but KG has LED THE LEAGUE IN REBOUNDING for the past 4 years!

You seem to think anyone who is 7 feet tall should try to be Shaq or Moses. It doesn't work that way. KG has figured out what makes him the most effective, and that's what he does. It's far from a Toine situation, where he deliberately did things that were less effective. I don't think he would be more effective if he tried to get to the rim and draw fouls every time, he is just not strong enough and not a good enough dribbler in traffic. Another thing, there is a reason why he as never been seriously injured in 11 years, not taking the physical punishment of a pure post scorer is definitely one of them.

[darrendaye]

-= original quote snipped =-



This isn't a bad idea.

I think that with some guys who play very effectively down low, like Big Al, they don't really have a choice about where to play because they don't have skills anywhere else (although he does have that little 10' jumper, I know). In the old days, you didn't have many 7 footers who could hit an 18' jumper, so of course they didn't play away from the basket. They couldn't. KG can hit the jumper and pass very effectively, so why shouldn't he play out from the basket some of the time? That helps keep the lane unclogged for when guys like Pierce want to slash to the hoop.

I think it's a valid criticism that a big guy doesn't want to play under the hoop, but I don't see an Antoine-like situation here.

Precisely, and I agree with the quote from reggie about how KG should be used. I've been alluding to this for the past few weeks and felt as though I was a broken record with nobody else dancing to the same music. I have been critical of Pierce for not cutting as much as I believe he could. Particularly in situations that reggie described with KG receiving the ball in the post to act as facilitator at times. I only witness TA displaying a commitment to cut through the lane as he moves without the ball. There may be a myriad of rational reasons for Pierce not to, but they escape me most times, and I tend to think that the fault lies with the player. But I am cognizant that this may be by design and try to be careful not to pass judgment on the player, but rather the situation.

You brought up Antoine in a negative light, and one I share, but when he first came back to the team, he was used well in this capasity. He would get down on the box, receive the ball, and TA or West and others would cut to the basket and Walker would find them for layups. Then, little by little, he or the team moved more and more away from this concept. Obviously KG's history shows evidence that he should be much more productive in the same situation with his greater ability to finish himself and generally better passing awareness.

ADDED COMMENT: In time, this is where I see Big Baby finding the most benefical fit for this team. He has the bulk to establish position frequently and should pose enough of a threat to garner attention. He will just have to have the awareness of what is the play with the highest probability of success, whether to pass to the cutter or fake and take it on his own.

[BigHands]

I think it's fair to say that there's never been a perfect player. Garnett's game is predicated more on quickness than strength. To criticize a someone for not playing within himself is somewhat foolish. Covering up weaknesses is the job of the coach and the general manager.

Exactly.

Red Auerbach always made sure he had a strong post player to complement his fleet-footed centers that made the fast break devastating. There was usually one in the starting line up and one on the bench as well.

Russell had folks like Heinsohn, Baily Howell, Wayne Embry,and Clyde Lovellette

Cowens had Paul Silas and not much else but Big Red was a tough character himself.

Parish had Maxwell, McHale (whose development made Rick Roby expendable) as well as Walton.

So IMO KG needs Perk, Pollard or a contributing Big Baby on the floor with him.

Perk obviously benefits from KG's passing but needs to be more consistent.

Big Baby is a rookie and has been a pleasant surprise.....enough said

I am beginning to suspect that Pollard's ankle has a chronic condition. He has not played a respectable number of games in a long time now.

But the problem is certainly not KG.

[ParticleMan]

Of course, that play where KG posts up and someone cuts to the basket last night resulted in a crucial turnover that basically sealed the game.

though i do like the theory, it's tough to teach an old dog new tricks. telling pierce and allen they should become cutters after 10 years in the league isn't as easy as it sounds.

[darrendaye]

PM, I'm not posing a counter-argument to your comment here, but, isn't this what all 3 guys were talking about, i.e. adjusting their games, in the offseason? If the adjustment is just that they take turns or that they are only willing to move without the ball to open perimeter shots, how effectively have they adjusted in a manner that makes the whole stronger than the individual parts? On defense they've done it, I can't say I'd agree that this is the case on offense to a significant degree.

[daveisceltics]

KG rebounds poorly?
are you kidding me?
this is the biggest joke thread ive ever seen.
bottom line is without KG we only have 17 wins right now.

[PPAW4Life]

Kevin Garnett is shooting a career best 55.4% from the field.

I say let him continue to shoot (and make) those outside jumpers and turnaround fadeaways. He's damn near unstoppable.

The only knock on KG for me is that he is TOO unselfish. He needs to be taking MORE shots.

Put it in perspective: KG is out shooting Tim Duncan (50.1%) and Carlos Boozer (54.7%).

What good is Tim Duncan playing more inside when he fails to convert 5% compared to KG?

KG trails Dwight Howard, Amare Stoudiamire because these two just dunk all day and that's all they are ever good for is dunking...

KG is multi-faceted and multi-dimensional. He makes the scrubs on our team that much more better on BOTH sides of the ball.