Has Ray Allen been a dissappointment?

eitanr · Post #1 » by **eitanr** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:24 pm

I believe there was one major reason for getting Ray Allen: to get Kevin Garnett. If we could play hypotheticals for a second, let's imagine that Ainge was able to convince KG to play in Boston without Allen being a Celtic. Was the Ray Allen deal then a good trade or a bad one?

Lets look at a roster that doesn't have Ray. Keep in mind, Boston probably drafts Yi Jinlian with the 5th pick.
PF K. Garnett/ Y. Jinlian/ B. Scalbrine
SF W. Szcerbiak/ J. Posey
C K. Perkins/ L. Powe/ S. Pollard
SG P. Pierce/ T. Allen
PG R. Rondo/ D. West

-Now I do believe that Eddie House does not get signed under these circumstances. That being said DA would've spent more for a backup center...perhaps Jamaal Magloire.

Now that lineup negates the 2 weaknesses we have now: backup PG (West) and backup Big (Yi).

Another major point to look at is the C's would then have a nice project they can still build for their future in Yi. Wally's contract would also expire soon and many FAs would want to join the Celtics band wagon with Boston's new found cap room. Some of course would say that if Boston is able to get West for cheap next season then it overrides part of the aforementioned trade.

The fact is though that Ray Allen could lose games for Boston. He forces shots too often is shooting absymally from the field and from 3...in fact his shooting numbers are eerily similar to Walker's in the earlier part of the decade. This guy is suppose to stretch the floor and be a clutch player. He defintley is somewhat clutch, but if he continues his horrid shooting how is he not a dissappointment?

The Celts in the short and long run would have been much better off to convince KG to come to Boston without the Ray Allen deal. What other offers was Minny going to get? Were the Lakers really willing to deal Bynum? In the end of the day I believe no getting Ray would be the most sensible move.

Now we are stuck with him and his play has been getting worse. Does he continue his down-swing next season? Many here will make the point that it does not matter if we win the title. I say it still does. Ray Allen won't be the reason we win the title....he will be the reason we have a somewhat hindered future.

Dogen · Post #2 » by **Dogen** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:30 pm

I'm going to reserve judgment on this until our playoff run. That's when the real value of these trades will start to show.

bruno sundov · Post #3 » by **bruno sundov** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:33 pm

I just think he is not what he used to be. Whether or not he can be, I don't even know if that is up to him. I think the anckles are just driving him nuts. They are hindering his game.

eitanr · Post #4 » by **eitanr** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:37 pm

While I would agree that if Ray turns it up in the playoffs it makes the deal all worth it, there is another point I missed. With guys like Kidd, Carter, Gasol, Mike Miller, Artest etc all either on the market or being dealt for relativley little...wouldn't a Yi and Wally package look like a competitive offer for one of those players?

The Nets certainly jump at Yi and Wally for Kidd and that offer is also better than what Memphis got for Gasol. Ainge could have predicted that there would be a flux of deals this season. A Gasol/Kidd-KG-Pierce trio is far better than having Ray in there.

CelticsWhat! · Post #5 » by **CelticsWhat!** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:40 pm

How exaclty would having Delonte West and Jamaal Magloire negate our two biggest weaknesses? West is not a true point guard, and THAT is what we are lacking in the back court; and Magloire has been a huge bust for NJ. I'd much rather have Big Baby (remember him? also from the Ray Allen trade)

The fact is, if you take away the Ray Allen trade, even forgetting about the fact that the KG trade would never go down, you have a team that is not nearly as good as the one we have now. And if you're trying to win a title now, wouldn't you rather have a better team?

eitanr · Post #6 » by **eitanr** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:43 pm

The big baby argument is a very sound one. Hence the reason he is not included in that roster. I do believe though that if Ainge wanted him badly enough, he could have snagged him via dealing second round picks etc. It didnt seem like too many GM's were in favor of drafting Davis.

b3n · Post #7 » by **b3n** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:46 pm

This has been a popular topic on this board and I still disagree that Allen is playing that bad:
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/ray_allen/index.html
Down almost negligable amounts when you factor in the teams ability to get wins.
I don't think you can disgree that he has looked better with Garnett out and we have been giving him minutes more similar to what he had in Seattle. I know they don't mean much, but Hollinger's Power Rankings on espn.com credits Allen:

You know what's scary about Ray Allen ... even for being in his 30's he gets off the ground so quickly. I think he might have the quickest release in the game. How can you defend against that?

W/O House, and with Wally, West, and Yi we are not a more winning team. We still have some great pieces to build on in the future as well. I disagree with you and support our trade for Ray Allen. The Pistons would have as many wins as us right now without both of Allens buzzer beaters..

Tricky Ricky · Post #8 » by **Tricky Ricky** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:46 pm

I think Ray is just what I imagined him to be and Im very happy with him. I think people set unrealistic expectations of him before the season and thats why they might be dissapointed but as long as hes healthy Im happy. Plus no more Wally :clap:

and remember he only has 2 years left I believe Redd and Wade also have 2 years left :clap:

Tricky Ricky · Post #9 » by **Tricky Ricky** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:49 pm

CelticsWhat! wrote:How exaclty would having Delonte West and Jamaal Magloire negate our two biggest weaknesses? West is not a true point guard, and THAT is what we are lacking in the back court; and Magloire has been a huge bust for NJ. I'd much rather have Big Baby (remember him? also from the Ray Allen trade)

The fact is, if you take away the Ray Allen trade, even forgetting about the fact that the KG trade would never go down, you have a team that is not nearly as good as the one we have now. And if you're trying to win a title now, wouldn't you rather have a better team?

Exactly, if you take away Ray you have to take away KG because there was no way KG was coming here without someone else

alwayslovetheceltics · Post #10 » by **alwayslovetheceltics** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:52 pm

are you high? we have the best record in the nba. damn.

game winners against charlotte and toronto. game tying threes against detroit and orlando. always extending the defense, has handled the ball and plays more minutes than any other player.

did you watch him destroy dallas ( just a week ago)?

damn. one top of all his contributions playing, he has been helping rondo improve his shooting. have you noticed a difference in rondo's confidence? do you think the other guys on the team like playing with Ray?

we just beat the spurs without KG. do you know what Duncan's record against the Celtics was coming into that game? 17-1, and you ask if Ray Ray is a disappointment.

unbelievable

MVP16 · Post #11 » by **MVP16** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:52 pm

Ray Allen certainly hasn't had the best year, but I wouldn't call him a disappointment. He has made 2 buzzer beaters this year and has had more games where he was instrumental in us getting the win. Even when he has a bad game, the defense still respects his shooting ability allowing more room in the paint. While Allen's offense hasn't been as good as we thought it would be, I think his defense has exceeded expectations.

Right now, Ray Allen>>>>Yi, Wally and West in terms of winning this year. Big Baby is probably more ready to contribute to a winning team this year then Yi anyway and House is arguably better then West in coming off the bench and having an impact. Wally can be a scorer off the bench, but he is not a starter on a winning team.

alwayslovetheceltics · Post #12 » by **alwayslovetheceltics** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:54 pm

the most sound argument in favor of ray? our Record. you leave the assassin open, and he will kill you. every single time.

Post #13 » by **SuperDeluxe** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:57 pm

alwayslovetheceltics wrote:are you high? we have the best record in the nba. damn.

game winners against charlotte and toronto. game tying threes against detroit and orlando. always extending the defense, has handled the ball and plays more minutes than any other player.

did you watch him destroy dallas ( just a week ago)?

damn. one top of all his contributions playing, he has been helping rondo improve his shooting. have you noticed a difference in rondo's confidence? do you think the other guys on the team like playing with Ray?

we just beat the spurs without KG. do you know what Duncan's record against the Celtics was coming into that game? 17-1, and you ask if Ray Ray is a disappointment.

unbelievable

Thank you. Very much.

TA42 · Post #14 » by **TA42** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:59 pm

While Ray's stats have declined I think it's more in how he is being used and his role in general.

Ray has always been a player that got a lot of touches and now he is asking to spot up a lot more.

I think he's still getting comfortable in his role and while his numbers will be down from career averages he will still be an indispensable player come playoff time.

Plus, he's already singlehandedly won us two games and could have won two more (missed free throws early in the season to end the game and the other night on the breakaway layup Power put in).

Give him time and watch the fun come playoff time.

Youth4Glory · Post #15 » by **Youth4Glory** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:04 pm

So far, yes a little bit. I don't regard him as the same shooter as he was in Seattle and Mil. BUT over the last 10 games, and five games especially I have no complaints. He looks like the Ray of old. For me he needs to come to play more consistently every night. He seems to be getting to the rim a little more which I like. His magic numbers are 45%fg and 40% from 3, which he has been doing. If he continues to shoot like he is now and shows some leadership into the playoffs I will be more than satisfied. But so far, he has slumped and little and I have been a little bit disappointed

Prophet_C · Post #16 » by **Prophet_C** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:10 pm

No.

When you play with 2 other stars, some stats are bound to go down. Yes at times his shooting has been inconsistent but he still has been putting up the points and two game winners. I've been very happy with him and even think his "d" is better than anticipated.

PPAW4Life · Post #17 » by **PPAW4Life** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:19 pm

I do not believe for a second we sign Posey, or Magloire (why even bother) or any other vets without Ray.

Even though I feel that Wally and West can help our team on offense...we are where we are (the best record in the NBA) because of our defense and that is attributed to KG and Posey and even Ray to an extent.

Post #18 » by **UGA Hayes** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:27 pm

Well if Allen doesn't at least maintain the production he has put up this year next year and we dont win the champ this year than no I would have rather had the other package and try to get Davis some other way.

Though I agree with the OP about him declining I can also live with his current level of production.

eitanr · Post #19 » by **eitanr** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:42 pm

I don't conquer with the fact that he has won 2 games for us already this season. If you recall those games, Ray was shooting atrociously against Charlotte...the Raps game I'll give you. He nearly lost us the Bobcats game before bailing us and himself out with that 3. Secondly an argument can be made that Boston is better with Tony Allen on the floor than Ray. Tony defends well and slashes with the best of them.

Obviously PPG and other stats go down when you're on a team with KG and PP, but percentages should actually go up. Ray Allen's role in general is not meant to be a spot up shooter or a simple floor spacer. Guys like Mike Miller or even Kyle Korver can do that and they come at a small percentage of what we got Ray for. You can't argue with the record, but with that logic, then Pollard was a good signing and so was Scal seasons ago.

And no one has mentioned that game at Cleveland where the great free throw shooting Ray Allen, missed not 1, but 2 FTs that would have likely won the game for Boston. Or how about just last Friday at Minnesota. Allen takes the ball one on 4 and throws up an absurd layup when he could've easily dumped it off to any one of the 3 guys trailing him. Lucky for him of course, Powe was in the right spot.
I'd rather have a player that plays consistently throughout, shoots a good percentage etc, than one who at times can bail his poor shooting performance with the very rare buzzer beater.

CelticsWhat! · Post #20 » by **CelticsWhat!** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:58 pm

eitanr wrote:I don't conquer with the fact that he has won 2 games for us already this season. If you recall those games, Ray was shooting atrociously against Charlotte...the Raps game I'll give you. He nearly lost us the Bobcats game before bailing us and himself out with that 3. Secondly an argument can be made that Boston is better with Tony Allen on the floor than Ray. Tony defends well and slashes with the best of them.

Obviously PPG and other stats go down when you're on a team with KG and PP, but percentages should actually go up. Ray Allen's role in general is not meant to be a spot up shooter or a simple floor spacer. Guys like Mike Miller or even Kyle Korver can do that and they come at a small percentage of what we got Ray for. You can't argue with the record, but with that logic, then Pollard was a good signing and so was Scal seasons ago.

And no one has mentioned that game at Cleveland where the great free throw shooting Ray Allen, missed not 1, but 2 FTs that would have likely won the game for Boston. Or how about just last Friday at Minnesota. Allen takes the ball one on 4 and throws up an absurd layup when he could've easily dumped it off to any one of the 3 guys trailing him. Lucky for him of course, Powe was in the right spot.
I'd rather have a player that plays consistently throughout, shoots a good percentage etc, than one who at times can bail his poor shooting performance with the very rare buzzer beater.

Okay, before I just figured this was a stupid thread that you started because you were bored. Now it's obvious that you have something against Ray Allen, which is absolutely ridiculous. To compare him to Kyle Korver or Mike Miller shows how little you know about the game.