Has Ray Allen been a dissappointment?

[eitanr]

To clarify I believe Ray Allen is very very talented. He is defintley one of the top 3- most talented guys in the league. That being said his role on this team, i.e. spot up shooter, floor spacer, scoring when the big 2 are off the floor, are traits that Miller and maybe even Korver can do just as well with this specific team than Ray can.

[alwayslovetheceltics]

wrt the charlotte game- thats what ray ray the superstar. yes he can a bad shooting game, but when the game is on the line, he's pure ICE. i realize this post is really about your binky's that stiff wally, delonte and yi, but do those guys come through like that?

mike miller or kyle korver? do you honestly beleive that either of those two players would command the same level of attention that ray attracts on each possession?

did you address ray's role with this team? what do think the other players on this squad think? i love tony, but i wonder if the squad would agree. do you realize that there is a damn good reason kg held out for ray allen?

tihs is unbelievable, trying to put pollard's signing on the same level of kg's? how is wally doing on his new team? what, he has had about 5 good games all year? what a surprise, that may be 1 more good game than he had all of last year. what? delonte's only played 34 games and is avg 6pts a game? damn. im sure our team would be better of with those two.

side note: have you even thought about defensive difference of ray over that stiff wally? with ray we can actually play a supreme offensive player next to the TRUTH without worrying that the defense is exposed on every play

last friday at MN? how about some revisionist history and some opportunistic criticism? do you remember the clock? ray raced nearly the full length of the floor for that lay up attempt. he was lucky to get it off and powe was lucky to get the put back off in time. there was no time for a pass.

additionally, keep the ball in the hands of the greatest scorers of nba history or pass it off? lets think about that....

[The Rondo Show]

To clarify I believe Ray Allen is very very talented. He is defintley one of the top 3- most talented guys in the league. That being said his role on this team, i.e. spot up shooter, floor spacer, scoring when the big 2 are off the floor, are traits that Miller and maybe even Korver can do just as well with this specific team than Ray can.

Top 3 talent in the league? Alwayslovetheceltics question has been answered, you are, in fact, very high.

I can see why you are disappointed, even though Ray Allen has been a very similar player to the one he was in Seattle, but is just shooting 7 times less per game. Ray Allen is a very good player and has played very well, but he is NOT a top 3 talent in the NBA and if you were expecting him to play like a top 3 talent, you were going to be extremely disappointed.

As for the "horrid shooting" you described earlier; is it .04 higher he is shooting from 3 compared to last year or the true shooting percentage that is nearly indentical to Paul Pierce (56.8 for Pierce, 56.2 for Ray) that's so horrid?

Honestly, you may have some of the most ridiculous expectations I've ever seen if you thought Ray Allen was a top 3 talent and that his shooting has been "horrid". Wow.

[Celts17Pride]

Ray Allen is not having an all-star year but he is a big part of this team and a major reason the Celtics are 39-9. Having Ray Allen on the court opens things up for others (Pierce, Garnett). It's like Randy Moss opening things up for Wes Welker. Even though Ray is not having a great year, the Celtics would not be as good without him. IMO.

[nugentrk]

I believe that KG did not want to play with Wally. Main reason he rejected that first Boston trade.

[eitanr]

I meant top 30 not top 3.

It's more of what else we could have done with the pieces that got us Ray than just comparing Ray to the pieces he was dealt for. The fact is the C's would be in prime positioning right now to make a deal for Kidd or would have for Gasol. It's not Ray the player as much as it is what else we could have done.

I don't want to simply compare Ray to Miller or Korver. I'm saying with this team his role is reduced to a spot up shooter or third scoring option. Mike Miller would provide that AND you can acquire other talents as well. Look we're sticking with what we got here for the long haul. I know this. I felt before the season, Ray was actually going to be the most impressive of the big 3. KG's attention and Pierce's driving mean many open shots for Ray. He actually gets a ton of great looks. He is shooting 42.4% from the field and 37.7% from 3....and that's with extra open looks. Maybe he is not accustomed to being a spot up shooter. If that's the case, then why did we get a superb talent to not play the way he can. It's like getting Shaq to be your PG.

[alwayslovetheceltics]

you either haven't watched closely or are merely fibbing if you think that is ray's only role.

ray hasn't been just a spot up shooter. he has handled the rock and created his own shot.

additionally unlike korver and miller, ray has bought in the teams's defensive style and has played tough defense all year. i can't beleive this bs im reading. talk about an agenda

To clarify I believe Ray Allen is very very talented. He is defintley one of the top 3- most talented guys in the league. That being said his role on this team, i.e. spot up shooter, floor spacer, scoring when the big 2 are off the floor, are traits that Miller and maybe even Korver can do just as well with this specific team than Ray can.

[GuyClinch]

You would rather have Jeff Green and Delonte West? Srsly? Some rookie who probably won't be as good as big baby and Delonte (I should under 40% and can't get PT on a crappy team) West?! Are you high?

The Ray Allen trade has been fantastic for the C's. He kills people. Other teams let up a tick and - BAM - 3 point shot. He is like a silent assasin out there. So smooth you don't realize your sunk to the damage is done.

I wouldn't take 6 Delonte Wests for one Ray Allen..

Pete

[alwayslovetheceltics]

I'm saying with this team his role is reduced to a spot up shooter or third scoring option. Mike Miller would provide that AND you can acquire other talents as well. Look we're sticking with what we got here for the long haul. I know this. I felt before the season, Ray was actually going to be the most impressive of the big 3.

maybe if this assertion was factually true, you would be correct. but its not. ray has handled the rock extensivley and created his own shot. third scoring option? he often plays with pierce and kg of the floor and is the number 1 option.

there have been games this year when both pierce and KG has played- that ray is the number 1 option.

this team plays smart basketball- and goes with the hot hand, whoever that may be at the time, third option? how can you claim this?

KG's attention and Pierce's driving mean many open shots for Ray. He actually gets a ton of great looks. He is shooting 42.4% from the field and 37.7% from 3....and that's with extra open looks. Maybe he is not accustomed to being a spot up shooter. If that's the case, then why did we get a superb talent to not play the way he can. It's like getting Shaq to be your PG

again, just ignore the facts. i guess if they don't help your argument, you ignore them right? ton of great looks? ray has taken a ton of tough shots of the driblee. if he was merely a spot up shooter like miller or korver or similar one trick pony's, his percentage would be higher ,but he's not. He creates a large percentage of shots on his own. do any of the stat gurus have ray's shooting percentage on those small percentage of shots that he shoots as set shots?

[alwayslovetheceltics]

im not sure this is even relevant.

first without ray we don't get kg.

2nd. how was danny supposed to know chris wallace would get stoned before negotating with kupcake?

3 NJ is going to deal Kidd within the division?

4. Why are we playing what if? we have the best record in the league

I meant top 30 not top 3.

It's more of what else we could have done with the pieces that got us Ray than just comparing Ray to the pieces he was dealt for. The fact is the C's would be in prime positioning right now to make a deal for Kidd or would have for Gasol. It's not Ray the player as much as it is what else we could have done.

[alwayslovetheceltics]

below, please find ray ray's stats during the clutch. after reading that, is there anything left to say?



http://www.82games.com/0708/07BOS5E.HTM

[GuyClinch]

Eh. Clutch stats don't settle this argument not that I think people are wron about Ray being good.. But you can excel in the clutch "statistic" simply by taking only gimmee shots so it's a suspect way of evaluating a player.

Third best roland rating on the team is a more compelling stat IMHO. Again that's not surprising because he is after all the third best player on the team..

Pete

[eitanr]

I think we have to go back to the original question though: is he a dissappointment. I think with his shooting numbers and ability to shoot Boston out of games, he hasn't been as great as we thought he could be. Maybe not a major dissappointment, but honestly, you guys didn't think he would be better. I envisioned defenders clogging Pierce as he drives in the lane or KG in the post and then you'd have Ray roaming the perimeter and be semi automatic. He has been okay.

I certainly do not want to seem like I'm bashing Ray here, but he hasn't lived up to expectations. We all knew of his ball handling ability, but the main reason he was acquired was for shooting. His FG% should be hovering around 45% and his 3P% should be around 40%. He is not quite there yet. As long as he keep throwing those 6 for 15 games more often than not, he won't help this club as much as he can/should.

[alwayslovetheceltics]

I think we have to go back to the original question though: is he a dissappointment. I think with his shooting numbers and ability to shoot Boston out of games, he hasn't been as great as we thought he could be. Maybe not a major dissappointment, but honestly, you guys didn't think he would be better. I envisioned defenders clogging Pierce as he drives in the lane or KG in the post and then you'd have Ray roaming the perimeter and be semi automatic. He has been okay.

the problem in your analysis is that your assumption of how this offense would be run is WRONG. Yes, there is some, KG and Paul setting up Ray for some set shots. In those occassions, he has been lights out. However, for the most part, Ray Ray has been handling the rock and setting up his own offense the same way Paul does.

Last year has been called the best year of Ray's career. Last year, he shot 37.2 % from three. This year, he has shot 37.7%.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/s ... atsId=3080

His 3 point shoot is has increase despite the fact that Celtics run a lot less screens and a lot less plays for Ray than they did in Seattle.

I certainly do not want to seem like I'm bashing Ray here, but he hasn't lived up to expectations. We all knew of his ball handling ability, but the main reason he was acquired was for shooting. His FG% should be hovering around 45% and his 3P% should be around 40%. He is not quite there yet. As long as he keep throwing those 6 for 15 games more often than not, he won't help this club as much as he can/should

If you want Ray's shooting percentage up, run him off screens and take advantage of his supreme mid range shooting, set more screens for him...... so far that hasn't been what Ray's role, he has created a lot of his own points/shots.

I think Ray has played some smart basketball and shown good progress in getting used to his new role and team

[Fencer reregistered]

Ray Allen has been a pleasant surprise on defense and a bit of a disappointment on offense (passing and shooting alike). But that's compared with a very high level of expectation.

And that high level of expectation is central not just to getting KG, but -- as has been pointed out multiple times already -- to getting Posey and House as well. (I think Posey is a much bigger deal than House, by the way.)

[Datruth345]

i'm not sure i get the point of the thread, we're imaging a scenario that didn't happen nor could have happened, then forming our opinions based on that. there is no KG without Ray Allen, and i don't see what making up a scenario where that isn't true does for the sake of argument

i have been happy with Ray Allen, i think if his ankles were truly "perfect" like he said at the beg. of the season he would be putting up all-star numbers this season, but regardless i have been pleased with his contributions to the celtics of 2007-2008

[phoolishly_insane]

He's 32 years old and still playing the best bball.

You can't really argue with that.

[vegas_runnin_rebel]

I think with his shooting numbers and ability to shoot Boston out of games, he hasn't been as great as we thought he could be. Maybe not a major dissappointment, but honestly, you guys didn't think he would be better.

You're delusional. The Celtics have only lost 9 games this year. And Ray wasn't on the court for one of them, so we're talking about just 8 losses when Ray has played.

Here's a look at his numbers in those 8 losses:

@ ORL L 102 - 104
7-17, 19 points, 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal, 3 TO's

Conclusion: Not Ray's best night. Basically scored his average, but struggled mightly in the 4th. Pierce had an excellent game (28 points) but KG fouled out and scored just 14 points.
If you had to blame someone?: Ray and KG.

@ CLE L 104 - 109 (OT)
10 - 25, 29 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, 3 TO's

Conclusion: Ray came up short at the free throw line in regulation. But let's be honest, he was the reason the Celtics were in the game to begin with. Pierce had a terrible game (16 points on 5-15 shooting, 4 TO's). Note to Doc, don't play Ray 49 minutes.
If you had to blame someone?: Pierce

vs. DET L 85 - 87
9-13, 24 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists

Conclusion: Probably Ray's best performance in a loss this season. Simply put, he was amazing in this game. Meanwhile, Pierce was awful (5-16 shooting, 11 points, 4 TO's).
If you had to blame someone?: Pierce and Tony Allen.

@ WAS L 78 - 85
3-13, 8 points, 3 TO's

Conclusion: Horrible game by Ray. Pierce wasn't very good either (5-13 shooting, 15 points, 6 TO's). It's important to note that Rondo didn't play and TA started at point.
If you had to blame someone?: Ray, Pierce, and Rondo's injury.

vs. WAS L 83 - 88
5-14, 16 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal, 3 TO's

Conclusion: Pretty mediocre game by Ray. Pierce was slightly better (18 points on 7-15 shooting, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 TO's) but definitely not up to his standards either.
If you had to blame someone?: Ray and Pierce.

vs. TOR L 112 - 114
7-16, 19 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 1 TO

Conclusion: Average game by Ray. Pierce was about the same if not a little worse (19 points, 8-20 shooting, 5 rebounds, 9 assists, 4 TO's). The real story in this game was the Raptors shooting a mind boggling 15-21 from deep.
If you had to blame someone?: Ray, Pierce, and the Raptors insane 3-point shooting.

@ ORL L 93 - 96
7-18, 17 points

Conclusion: Mediocre game. Ray failed to fill up the stat sheet in the other categories. Pierce had a good game (9-18 shooting, 24 points, 9 boards). No KG in this game.
If you had to blame someone?: Ray Allen and KG's injury.

@ CLE L 113 - 114
8-13, 24 points, 5 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, 4 TO's

Conclusion: Strong game by Ray. Pierce shot a decent clip from the field (8-15, 19 points) but he didn't crash the boards (2 rebounds) like he usually does. Again, No KG in this game.
If you had to blame someone?: Pierce and KG's injury.

What that brief analysis tells me is that when the Celtics lose, it's usually because two out of the Celtics big three had lousy games. In other words, it's not Ray Allen who has shot the Celtics out games this season, it's been Ray Allen and Pierce both struggling on the same night (and occasionally even KG). And when Ray and Pierce have played without KG, I'd argue that Ray failed to show up against Orlando, and Pierce failed to show up against Cleveland. So at the end of the day, we're talking about one loss that can be attributed to Ray, and one loss that falls on Pierce. And again, those two games were without KG...

As a closing thought, let me just reiterate that the beauty of the big three is that all three players don't have to bring their "A" game on the same night to get a win. So rather than get worked up about what Ray or Pierce isn't bringing to the table on a given night, you should be taking solace in the fact than more often than not, Ray has Pierce's back and Pierce has Ray's back...And of course, KG (when healthy) almost always brings it.

[The Rondo Show]

Nice research, VRR.

From those numbers, it looks like the only game Ray has really cost them is the first Wizards game, where Pierce sucked just as bad. Ray hasn't really been great in either loss to Orlando, but he hardly "shot them out of the game" and he (and Posey) also came up huge in the 4th quarter of the 2nd Orlando loss. He had a couple 3's in a row to ignite a comeback early in the 4th and then he hit the game tying 3 in the corner with about 20 seconds left (only to see Hedo hit that miracle shot).

Ray Allen has been roughly as advertised. His scoring efficiency is basically the same as last year, but he's taking 6.2 less shots per game and 2 less free throws (which is likely due to being used much less, and not because he's not going to the hoop). His rebounding has been very similar, he's got 1.3 less assists per game but again, that's due to being used less and not having the responsibility of being the go to guy at all times. His D is better than it was advertised to be. He was very clutch last year and he's just as clutch this year.

[sam_I_am]

I think you have to go beyond the numbers to understand what Ray Allen means to this team.

His 3 point shooting may be down but his defender has to be right up in his face to have a chance at defending the shot. His release is unbelievably quick. Yeah it would be great if he could shoot at a higher percentage ..... but he is a dangerous player and the opposition has to respect that.

I am a big Delonte West guy and Yi is probably better than I thought although I still see him as Hedu Turkoglu at best. Neither of those guys impact the opposing defense the way Ray does.

Right now we are 6-2 without KG with wins against Dallas and San Antonio and an OT loss to Cleveland. Does anybody really think that happens if we had West, Yi, Wally instead of Ray out there with Paul?