Celtics make offer to Maggette!!!

MoBSTa · Post #141 » by **MoBSTa** » Wed Jul 2, 2008 8:14 pm

Well, I honestly thought it was a team aspect.
I also thought you wanted guy's that wanted to do what it takes to win.
Sorry man, But there is more in a Cigar than just a Victory to some people.

When I light mine I light it out of respect.

greenbeans · Post #142 » by **greenbeans** » Wed Jul 2, 2008 8:17 pm

youd learn to respect whoever wins the celtics a championship.

The Rondo Show · Post #143 » by **The Rondo Show** » Wed Jul 2, 2008 8:24 pm

Where does it say they wanted Posey (I assume that's the vet you were referring to) to take a paycut? It says they aren't going to throw a twenty something million offer Posey's way that he might be able to get from a desperate team.

That means they aren't giving a 31 year old role player the full mid-level for 4 years or longer, especially when we still have quite a few needs to fill. I like Posey as much as the next guy, but I don't really disagree with that.

They never asked him to take a paycut and never will, they just aren't going to hand a role player (as good of one as Posey is) a blank check and tell him to write the years and money per year on it when they still have big needs at backup PG and backup C or when a free agent like Corey Maggette out there possibly for the same price.

Not throwing a "twenty something million" offer his way could still mean they are offering 3 years at the full mid-level, which is plenty fair and probably even an overpayment.

armageddon · Post #144 » by **armageddon** » Wed Jul 2, 2008 8:36 pm

Assuming that Corey lives in LA, Pierce and Garnett better be sitting down in his livingroom giving him the PJ talk.

Rocky5000 · Post #145 » by **Rocky5000** » Wed Jul 2, 2008 8:43 pm

The Rondo Show wrote:Where does it say they wanted Posey (I assume that's the vet you were referring to) to take a paycut? It says they aren't going to throw a twenty something million offer Posey's way that he might be able to get from a desperate team.

That means they aren't giving a 31 year old role player the full mid-level for 4 years or longer, especially when we still have quite a few needs to fill. I like Posey as much as the next guy, but I don't really disagree with that.

They never asked him to take a paycut and never will, they just aren't going to hand a role player (as good of one as Posey is) a blank check and tell him to write the years and money per year on it when they still have big needs at backup PG and backup C or when a free agent like Corey Maggette out there possibly for the same price.

Not throwing a "twenty something million" offer his way could still mean they are offering 3 years at the full mid-level, which is plenty fair and probably even an overpayment.

It's not a paycut from what he is currently getting, it is a paycut from what he could potentially get at another team like the Cavs or Lakers. Since the Celtics won't get into a bidding war, it means that the offer they made is likely their final offer. I don't know if a paycut is the correct term to describe it, but he'd be losing future earnings by choosing to stay with the Celtics. In economics terms you'd call it an opportunity cost. If you're currently working at McDonalds, and you have 2 job offers, one from Goldman Sachs, and one from the Olive Garden, you'd be a fool to take the Olive Garden job, even though they'd pay you more than you currently make, because you could be making a lot more by working for GS.

I agree with you and Ainge that Posey isn't good enough or consistent enough throughout his career to get a 4+ year contract at his age. I guess it all depends on how set Posey is in his financial future.

MoBSTa · Post #146 » by **MoBSTa** » Wed Jul 2, 2008 8:55 pm

Thank's Rocky, I was actully thinking if Posey really want's to be in green next season, I can't imagine why Danny couldn't work something out. Maybe I should say I can't understand why they couldn't come to an agreement on an extention of some sort.

From what I got from that column was that Posey's Agent was outraged at the offer he got from the C's.

If that's the case, I don't believe the C's would be making any friends that's was my point.

John Locke · Post #147 » by **John Locke** » Wed Jul 2, 2008 9:36 pm

Rocky, that anolygy is off. Boston Celtics aren't McDonalds. It's like a worker who is doing good in his job and will get a raise, but has an offer from some other companies from different parts of the country. Now, the worker knows what he'll get from his current employer, and likes the company very much. But the question is, does he favor a 10-20% raise or does he want to stay with the company?

Rocky5000 · Post #148 » by **Rocky5000** » Wed Jul 2, 2008 9:59 pm

Sure John, that analogy works as well. I was just trying to explain, that even though he's getting a raise if he signs with the Celtics, it isn't as much as he can get elsewhere in the league, especially in terms of contract length.

The Rondo Show · Post #149 » by **The Rondo Show** » Wed Jul 2, 2008 10:20 pm

Rocky5000 wrote:Sure John, that analogy works as well. I was just trying to explain, that even though he's getting a raise if he signs with the Celtics, it isn't as much as he can get elsewhere in the league, especially in terms of contract length.

Yes, we all understand that. I was just responding to Mobsta's post about "why would free agents come here when we treat Posey like crap and offer him a paycut after he helps win a title" and saying how the Celtics organization should show more class. Just because they aren't offering Posey 5 years at the full mid-level like some teams may doesn't mean they don't realize Posey's value and are disrespecting him. Disrespecting him would be offering him an actual paycut like $2.5M-$3.5M, not offering less than a team on the FA market might be willing to pay him.

The Celtics just aren't going to pay out of the ass for a 31 year old role player when they have needs at backup PG and C and while better players like Maggette are out there for the mid-level (he's become a realistic option now that the Clips can't S&T him--now the question is more like is he willing to come off the bench for the Celts rather than start for ORL or SA). There's a difference between not realizing a guys value and not wanting to overpay big time.

Wyc isn't going to be willing to sign long-term MLE's every single year and continue to get deeper and deeper into luxury tax land, at least not in my opinion. The guy is a great owner, but his spending isn't unlimited. DA has to be careful who he spends on long-term and you don't just shell out overpayments long-term deals to be classy towards players who have helped you in the past like Mobsta' wants them to do, apparently.

Besides, Bill Burt isn't exactly the go to guy when it comes to breaking news, so let's wait a bit before we decide Posey MUST take less to stay in Boston (although, I do think it's likely that's what needs to happen, someone will throw a 4+ year deal his way IMO).

MoBSTa · Post #150 » by **MoBSTa** » Wed Jul 2, 2008 11:20 pm

I believe if you did give Posey a 4 year deal, and you did want to trade him he would be a nice piece to have in the future to trade. After all Finley has played for years, not to mention Horry, or ither Thomas.

Anyway I am not getting into this anymore. But one thing is for sure for the money I would of rather had Posey than Scal.

Collinto · Post #151 » by **Collinto** » Thu Jul 3, 2008 12:18 am

If we use the Red Sox as a benchmark, then Ainge's thinking is right on. The Red Sox have a well developed methodology for setting values on players. Regardless of whether the player is a former Red Sox/Celtic, or a free agent. This FO strategy led to not over paying for Pedro and Johnny Damon and hamstringing the franchise in the long run.

I certainly hope the Celtic's employ a similar strategy. The Red Sox evaluation process seems fairly involved and well developed, and the Celtic's would need to be as well. Ainge has been fairly straight forward about his intentions coming into the job (collect assets and trade for veterans) and stuck to it. I hope his long term vision is as developed and he sticks too it. Getting into a 'bidding war' over a aging role player doesn't seem like good business. Posey's value may be higher to other team and in that case the Celtic's need to thank Posey for his contributions to #17 and move on (see Pedro Martinez, who was more valuable to the Mets and that decision seems to be the right one in retrospect).

To a certain extent, I feel the man-love for Posey and House, et all. is a little mislead. At least in the sense that when you have our starting 5, a number of players could step into roles 6-9 and look like they are 'special'. As much as the goal is winning again next year, Ainge has stated that he wants to compete every year...which means spending wisely on FA's, ensuring cap flexibility, etc.

Another quick question, those who think the Celtic's "owe Posey something"...what are your ages? Just seems like that is a young man's idealistic thought, where as most adults realize that both parties are 'using each other to get ahead' and don't get caught up in supporting emotional based decisions like "he was good soldier so let's reward him to our own detriment'.

AlCelticFan · Post #152 » by **AlCelticFan** » Thu Jul 3, 2008 1:22 am

This is really excellent news. I agree that overpaying for Posey is a bad idea, the Celtics orgainization needs to decide what they feel Posey is worth, and then pay no more than that, IMHO...

jfs1000d · Post #153 » by **jfs1000d** » Thu Jul 3, 2008 1:47 am

I don't know about loyalty. Posey is a good player, and valuable, but of we could get Maggette for the MLE, why wouldn't you do it?

I am not sure what the Celts are doing. I got a feeling POz is going to cash in.

TheCelticTruth · Post #154 » by **TheCelticTruth** » Thu Jul 3, 2008 2:23 am

Collinto wrote:If we use the Red Sox as a benchmark, then Ainge's thinking is right on. The Red Sox have a well developed methodology for setting values on players.

excuse me, but lets give credit where credit is due. the sox and now the Cs have certainly observed and learned from belichick and pioli. the pats ended the title drought and reminded (most) of our other franchises how to properly manage.

Post #155 » by **sully00** » Thu Jul 3, 2008 3:42 am

I don't think the offer is the problem, obviously it isn't the 20+ mil Bartelstien would like to get Posey but it is likely what he expected as an offer, what has him bent is that Ainge isn't going to let him go shop Posey and come back to Boston with what they get. James wants to stay and isn't going to be too happy if while his agent is screwing around with teams that aren't going to offer him anymore than Boston, someone else takes his job.

There is not a lot of long term MLE money out there teams are watching their money for two years from now. Their is even less from contending teams who want to maintain flexibility. The only guys who will get long term MLE money are guys like Maggette, if he even wants it, the 10 mil guy available for 5 because he doesn't have any options.

John Locke · Post #156 » by **John Locke** » Thu Jul 3, 2008 9:27 am

Although the Celtics got Posey for cheap, they don't owe him anything. If we owe somebody it's Pierce, not Posey. Posey has played here for one year and got a ring. I hope he stays, but if he wants to hold out for more money, it's his decision.

LongTimeFan · Post #157 » by **LongTimeFan** » Thu Jul 3, 2008 10:48 am

As much as I liked Posey and his contribution to the teams' emotional resilience, the numbers for Posey are not that favorable.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07BOS8D.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0708/07BOS8C.HTM

His -11.2 points per hundred poss. is quite negative. Granted he was playing much of the time defending the opponents PF during crunch time. But nonetheless, the numbers aren't that great on a team that dominates.

The problem Posey has is that Celtics really do go by the numbers and value him based on the tangibles. They'll give some consideration to the goodwill Posey has earned, but nowhere near the MLE and the long term deal.

DieselCeltic · Post #158 » by **DieselCeltic** » Thu Jul 3, 2008 11:08 am

Guys BAD NEWS:

I work for Boston Sports Club & LA and have met few people that are really close to James Posey. I see many Celtics players work out in our facilty. A guy that goes by the name "Seth" told my manager who happens to be a die-hard C's fan and has been a season ticket holder for many years now well this guy "Seth" who again happens to be close to Posey told my manager Steve that Posey has no interest in taking another pay-cut with the Celtics and at this point will not return to play with the Celtics next year.

So in reality we will not be getting Maggette or Posey.

Take this info for what is worth

jfs1000d · Post #159 » by **jfs1000d** » Thu Jul 3, 2008 12:38 pm

Yawn.

Posey will end why up in the best spot for him. I don't know why we are going nuts over this guy. He is absolute winning player, but he is hardly irreplaceable.

Celts can't over pay for him.Looks like they don't want to give him the MLE,they want to use that to fill put the roster.

MoBSTa · Post #160 » by **MoBSTa** » Thu Jul 3, 2008 2:33 pm

After the Celtic's have denied an offer to Meggette, This also put's a differant respective on the feelings I had about the column yesterday.

So with that said, I appoligize for anything I wrote that may have offended anyone.

I just wonder who put out the rumor that Boston had offerd Meggette a contract?