Who ya got?
I got my man Doc.
Roy Halladay vs Mark Buehrle
Roy Halladay vs Mark Buehrle
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risktaker91
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tsherkin
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Hmm.
Buehrle's a 3-time All-Star and has a solid winning percentage. Halladay's a 4-time All-Star with a pair of top-3 Cy Young finishes (and he won the award once).
Doc's considerably better at inducing ground ball's (GB% of 57.5% over the last 4 years with his lowest season in that time at 52.7%). Buehrle's about average in that regard, around 44%.
Neither is a dominant strikeout pitcher (but that's because Halladay took away some of his velocity so he could focus on his dirty sinkerballer act). Halladay's a bit better about not giving up the long ball, and Buehrle's a bit better about not walking guys.
Halladay's two years older. Buehrle actually has one more season with 16+ wins than does Halladay but Doc was 12-4 in 19 games in '05 before that damned ball took him out. He might've had his second Cy Young if he was healthy that year and Buehrle's best year was a 5th-place finish. That might change this year but I doubt it, no-hitter aside.
I like Halladay as a pitcher more; some of that is undoubtedly I live in Toronto and see significantly more of Doc than I do of Buehrle but he's a sinkerball pitcher with a good heat and he's a lot better about keeping the ball on the ground than is Buehrle. And then of course there's the whole "recognition" thing, where Halladay's a Cy Young winner and a guy who's perennially in that discussion and Buehrle isn't, at least not to the same degree.
Buehrle's a fine pitcher but this has to be Doc.
EDIT - Incidentally, in '04, Halladay was 8-8 in 21 starts; if he was getting his regular 32-36 starts in '04 and '05.. figure 33 games in each of those years and about 2/3ds of those being decisions, which is his career average. That's 11 wins in '04, so nothing special but 16 or 17 in '05 and maybe a second Cy Young... Suddenly Buehrle doesn't even have the extra 16-win season and Doc's up on him by two Cy Youngs....
Buehrle's a 3-time All-Star and has a solid winning percentage. Halladay's a 4-time All-Star with a pair of top-3 Cy Young finishes (and he won the award once).
Doc's considerably better at inducing ground ball's (GB% of 57.5% over the last 4 years with his lowest season in that time at 52.7%). Buehrle's about average in that regard, around 44%.
Neither is a dominant strikeout pitcher (but that's because Halladay took away some of his velocity so he could focus on his dirty sinkerballer act). Halladay's a bit better about not giving up the long ball, and Buehrle's a bit better about not walking guys.
Halladay's two years older. Buehrle actually has one more season with 16+ wins than does Halladay but Doc was 12-4 in 19 games in '05 before that damned ball took him out. He might've had his second Cy Young if he was healthy that year and Buehrle's best year was a 5th-place finish. That might change this year but I doubt it, no-hitter aside.
I like Halladay as a pitcher more; some of that is undoubtedly I live in Toronto and see significantly more of Doc than I do of Buehrle but he's a sinkerball pitcher with a good heat and he's a lot better about keeping the ball on the ground than is Buehrle. And then of course there's the whole "recognition" thing, where Halladay's a Cy Young winner and a guy who's perennially in that discussion and Buehrle isn't, at least not to the same degree.
Buehrle's a fine pitcher but this has to be Doc.
EDIT - Incidentally, in '04, Halladay was 8-8 in 21 starts; if he was getting his regular 32-36 starts in '04 and '05.. figure 33 games in each of those years and about 2/3ds of those being decisions, which is his career average. That's 11 wins in '04, so nothing special but 16 or 17 in '05 and maybe a second Cy Young... Suddenly Buehrle doesn't even have the extra 16-win season and Doc's up on him by two Cy Youngs....
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GYBE
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tsherkin wrote:but 16 or 17 in '05 and maybe a second Cy Young... Suddenly Buehrle doesn't even have the extra 16-win season and Doc's up on him by two Cy Youngs....
That's a massive leap of faith...at no point in his career has Doc ever been as good as Johan Santana was in 2005, who should have won the Cy Young that year. The actual winner, Colon, had 21 wins and it's tough to assume Doc would've got that many to sway the sportswriters. In either case, it's a thin argument to speculate he should have another Cy in his resume.
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tsherkin
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GYBE wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
That's a massive leap of faith...at no point in his career has Doc ever been as good as Johan Santana was in 2005, who should have won the Cy Young that year. The actual winner, Colon, had 21 wins and it's tough to assume Doc would've got that many to sway the sportswriters. In either case, it's a thin argument to speculate he should have another Cy in his resume.
Of course it is, and I'm not basing my argument off of what MIGHT have been, only what has actually happened.
I'm just pointing out that he was third in the voting while only playing in 19 games, so it's possible. It's not relevant to why I prefer Doc over Buehrle though.
I prefer Doc because he's better at keeping the ball on the ground, because he's traditionally better by FIP, he's a little better as a strikeout pitcher even as a sinkerballer...
Lots of different things.
The missed wins and stuff, that's just postulation and has no bearing on my decision, it was just written in for fun.
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GYBE
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That's fine.
I'd rather have Buehrle if I was running a franchise. Halladay is slightly more dominant when he's on, but Buehrle's a horse. He's pitched over 200 innings every year since his rookie season. Halladay has missed more time in the past to injuries, and will likely miss more time in the future due to them.
I'd rather have Buehrle if I was running a franchise. Halladay is slightly more dominant when he's on, but Buehrle's a horse. He's pitched over 200 innings every year since his rookie season. Halladay has missed more time in the past to injuries, and will likely miss more time in the future due to them.
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risktaker91
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GYBE wrote:That's fine.
I'd rather have Buehrle if I was running a franchise. Halladay is slightly more dominant when he's on, but Buehrle's a horse. He's pitched over 200 innings every year since his rookie season. Halladay has missed more time in the past to injuries, and will likely miss more time in the future due to them.
Very true. Halladay seems to get unlucky ever year.
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tsherkin
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GYBE wrote:That's fine.
I'd rather have Buehrle if I was running a franchise. Halladay is slightly more dominant when he's on, but Buehrle's a horse. He's pitched over 200 innings every year since his rookie season. Halladay has missed more time in the past to injuries, and will likely miss more time in the future due to them.
Eh, one year was him getting cranked in the shin with a liner; Buehrle would've gone down just the same. I don't think there's much water to that theory but we'll see; and it's always good to have a contrary opinion to get the discussion going.
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Pierce 4 3
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GYBE
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I don't think it's easy at all my man.
I think people overrate Roy a tad because of his Cy Young. It adds some allure to his name.
Buehrle has a much better ERA and a better WHIP this season. Though Roy has thrown a lot of innings this year, which has been my main problem with him.
In any case, I think it's a pretty close comparison. Though I'd like someone else to defend Mark, I feel dirty arguing for a White Sox player.
I think people overrate Roy a tad because of his Cy Young. It adds some allure to his name.
Buehrle has a much better ERA and a better WHIP this season. Though Roy has thrown a lot of innings this year, which has been my main problem with him.
In any case, I think it's a pretty close comparison. Though I'd like someone else to defend Mark, I feel dirty arguing for a White Sox player.
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Basketball Jesus
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This thread is absolute hilarity.
In no regard is Buehrle better than Halladay.
In no regard is Buehrle better than Halladay.
Manocad wrote:The universe is the age it is. We can all agree it's 13 billion years old, and nothing changes. We can all agree it's 6000 years old, and nothing changes. We can all disagree on how old it is, and nothing changes. Some people really need a hobby.
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SDM
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GYBE wrote:That's fine.
I'd rather have Buehrle if I was running a franchise. Halladay is slightly more dominant when he's on, but Buehrle's a horse. He's pitched over 200 innings every year since his rookie season. Halladay has missed more time in the past to injuries, and will likely miss more time in the future due to them.
Halladay missed a month due to appendicitis (again, it's not like he tore his shoulder; it has nothing to do with how he'll pitch in future years) and he was slow coming back from it (which is understandable, as he didn't have velocity for a couple starts, but we can't afford to have him out.
He finished with 17 wins and a 3.71 ERA.
