Starting SF Game 1 Of 2023-24 Season?

[mcfly1204]

Why are we acting like Okoro is the reason we lost to the Knicks?

[TheLand13]

Why are we acting like Okoro is the reason we lost to the Knicks?

The better question is why do we always blame him and spacing and not Mitchell for underperforming, which is the main reason we lost to begin with?

[JonFromVA]

We've had zero success when it counts with Okoro playing significant minutes.

Until the Cavs go to the Finals or at minimum the ECF, the Cavs and Okoro at SF haven't proven anything.

I'd rather have Strus as SF and win 41 games and go to the ECF then anything Okoro at SF the past 2 seasons has accomplished.

51 wins and 44 wins mean nothing when they result in not getting passed the 1st round.

2 years in a row, teams leave Okoro sit out there in the post season. When guys are already crowding the paint because Allen and Mobley can't/won't shoot outside 10 feet, ya need to bench Okoro and one of Allen or Mobley and put in the Snipers Niang and Strus, after all that is why they were target 1a and 1b for the Cavs this summer.

We're fortunate that 5 game samples sizes are not very predictive, because if Max Strus shoots 23% from the field and 18% from 3pt like he did for the Heat in the finals this year, we're going to miss Isaac's 48%/31% .vs. the Knicks.

Keep in mind, winning 41 games and not making the playoffs is another option. Why are you keying on the optimistic outcome when it comes to Strus, but not Mitchell?

Let him prove it.

Or we can get Strus' 45%/41% from the first round and finally advance to a semi, now there's a thought.

Point is we don't know what we're going to get because he's never played a game with the Cavs.

Now if he was a monster on the offensive boards, I'd like our chances in a rematch.vs. the Knicks a lot better, but I really do think that could be fixed by scheme, coaching, and the continued physical maturation of Allen and Mobley.

[ijspeelman]

Why are we acting like Okoro is the reason we lost to the Knicks?

The better question is why do we always blame him and spacing and not Mitchell for underperforming, which is the main reason we lost to begin with?

I'm not one to blame Okoro for us losing to the Knicks.

However, our spacing is what, in my opinion, made Mitchell underperform. Typically, he can swerve the lane and get to the basket, but the Knicks players were nearly all in the paint waiting for him.

This resulted in kick-outs to poor shooters or for him to self-generate middies and threes that happened to no go in. Re-watching the series does not make it seem that Mitchell underperformed, but instead was set up to fail.

[TheLand13]

Why are we acting like Okoro is the reason we lost to the Knicks?

The better question is why do we always blame him and spacing and not Mitchell for underperforming, which is the main reason we lost to begin with?

I'm not one to blame Okoro for us losing to the Knicks.

However, our spacing is what, in my opinion, made Mitchell underperform. Typically, he can swerve the lane and get to the basket, but the Knicks players were nearly all in the paint waiting for him.

This resulted in kick-outs to poor shooters or for him to self-generate middies and threes that happened to no go in. Re-watching the series does not make it seem that Mitchell underperformed, but instead was set up to fail.

I mean I could understand this logic if not for the fact that the type of shots Mitchell was missing were the kind of shots he had been hitting all year long. I just can't buy into the idea that it was spacing that's to blame when we have a near seasons worth of evidence showing that it wasn't a factor.

[TheLand13]

We've had zero success when it counts with Okoro playing significant minutes.

Until the Cavs go to the Finals or at minimum the ECF, the Cavs and Okoro at SF haven't proven anything.

I'd rather have Strus as SF and win 41 games and go to the ECF then anything Okoro at SF the past 2 seasons has accomplished.

51 wins and 44 wins mean nothing when they result in not getting passed the 1st round.

2 years in a row, teams leave Okoro sit out there in the post season. When guys are already crowding the paint because Allen and Mobley can't/won't shoot outside 10 feet, ya need to bench Okoro and one of Allen or Mobley and put in the Snipers Niang and Strus, after all that is why they were target 1a and 1b for the Cavs this summer.

We're fortunate that 5 game samples sizes are not very predictive, because if Max Strus shoots 23% from the field and 18% from 3pt like he did for the Heat in the finals this year, we're going to miss Isaac's 48%/31% .vs. the Knicks.

Keep in mind, winning 41 games and not making the playoffs is another option. Why are you keying on the optimistic outcome when it comes to Strus, but not Mitchell?

Let him prove it.

Or we can get Strus' 45%/41% from the first round and finally advance to a semi, now there's a thought.

Or we could have just kept Kevin Love and use his 37% shooting from three for the playoffs to get past the first round.

I don't think I will ever get over us benching him and letting him go. I can't believe I thought that was a good idea.

[toooskies]

Why are we acting like Okoro is the reason we lost to the Knicks?

The better question is why do we always blame him and spacing and not Mitchell for underperforming, which is the main reason we lost to begin with?

I'm not one to blame Okoro for us losing to the Knicks.

However, our spacing is what, in my opinion, made Mitchell underperform. Typically, he can swerve the lane and get to the basket, but the Knicks players were nearly all in the paint waiting for him.

This resulted in kick-outs to poor shooters or for him to self-generate middies and threes that happened to no go in. Re-watching the series does not make it seem that Mitchell underperformed, but instead was set up to fail.

The Knicks were going to pack the paint regardless of who we stuck in the corner, so long as that guy is the 5th option.

[ijspeelman]

The better question is why do we always blame him and spacing and not Mitchell for underperforming, which is the main reason we lost to begin with?

I'm not one to blame Okoro for us losing to the Knicks.

However, our spacing is what, in my opinion, made Mitchell underperform. Typically, he can swerve the lane and get to the basket, but the Knicks players were nearly all in the paint waiting for him.

This resulted in kick-outs to poor shooters or for him to self-generate middies and threes that happened to no go in. Re-watching the series does not make it seem that Mitchell underperformed, but instead was set up to fail.

I mean I could understand this logic if not for the fact that the type of shots Mitchell was missing were the kind of shots he had been hitting all year long. I just can't buy into the idea that it was spacing that's to blame when we have a near seasons worth of evidence showing that it wasn't a factor.

I agree he was hitting them all year long, but not in the playoffs. Its an extremely variable shot and it was the majority of his diet in the playoffs and it was five game sample size.

Code: Select all

         % of FGA by Distance                                  FG% by Distance               
Season   2P     0-3      3-10    10-16   16-3P   3P      2P      0-3      3-10  10-16  16-3P  3P
RS        0.547   0.214   0.152   0.079   0.102   0.453   0.566   0.693   0.531 0.486  0.413  0.386
PO        0.567   0.163   0.096   0.202   0.106   0.433   0.542   0.647   0.5   0.524  0.455  0.289


He shot 5% less shots at the rim, 5% less shots from 3-10 feet, 12% more shots from 10-16, same long twos, and 2% less threes.

He shot better on his middies and long twos, marginally worse on rim attempts, and much worse from three.

[ijspeelman]

The better question is why do we always blame him and spacing and not Mitchell for underperforming, which is the main reason we lost to begin with?

I'm not one to blame Okoro for us losing to the Knicks.

However, our spacing is what, in my opinion, made Mitchell underperform. Typically, he can swerve the lane and get to the basket, but the Knicks players were nearly all in the paint waiting for him.

This resulted in kick-outs to poor shooters or for him to self-generate middies and threes that happened to no go in. Re-watching the series does not make it seem that Mitchell underperformed, but instead was set up to fail.

The Knicks were going to pack the paint regardless of who we stuck in the corner, so long as that guy is the 5th option.

We'd have made them pay for it and maybe change gameplans if we had more threats from deep.

[ijspeelman]

I am not disagreeing that Mitchell shot worse, but I just think there is context there. Even with that context, yes he could have shot better. These were shots he was routinely making in the regular season.

Its hard for me to look at a five game sample and make confident points about under or overperforming. Mitchell has had some great elevating playoff performances and this was not one of them. One thing those teams had was an over abundance of shooters which he did not have the fortune of having in this series.

[toooskies]

I'm not one to blame Okoro for us losing to the Knicks.

However, our spacing is what, in my opinion, made Mitchell underperform. Typically, he can swerve the lane and get to the basket, but the Knicks players were nearly all in the paint waiting for him.

This resulted in kick-outs to poor shooters or for him to self-generate middies and threes that happened to no go in. Re-watching the series does not make it seem that Mitchell underperformed, but instead was set up to fail.

The Knicks were going to pack the paint regardless of who we stuck in the corner, so long as that guy is the 5th option.

We'd have made them pay for it and maybe change gameplans if we had more threats from deep.

I don't know, Al Horford went from shooting 44% from 3 in the regular season to 29% in the playoffs. Maybe that guy goes 4 for 7 or he goes 0 for 7.

Strus went 0/9, 4/10, 1/4, 0/3, and 1/6 from three in the Finals. Just because we have Strus doesn't mean he's going to make them, doesn't mean he needs to be guarded.

I think the Knicks were invested in the strategy of packing the paint and were going to keep Mitchell, Allen, and Mobley all out of rhythm even if they gave up some makes on the outside.

[JonFromVA]

The Knicks were going to pack the paint regardless of who we stuck in the corner, so long as that guy is the 5th option.

We'd have made them pay for it and maybe change gameplans if we had more threats from deep.

I don't know, Al Horford went from shooting 44% from 3 in the regular season to 29% in the playoffs. Maybe that guy goes 4 for 7 or he goes 0 for 7.

Strus went 0/9, 4/10, 1/4, 0/3, and 1/6 from three in the Finals. Just because we have Strus doesn't mean he's going to make them, doesn't mean he needs to be guarded.

I think the Knicks were invested in the strategy of packing the paint and were going to keep Mitchell, Allen, and Mobley all out of rhythm even if they gave up some makes on the outside.

Context? Mitchell had that groin injury and also sprained a finger. Stuff tends to linger and act up when aggravated.

It's still weird he couldn't carry us to at least one win, should have been game 1, but he missed his last 3 shots and that was that. Meanwhile Brunson was 2 for 3 and Hart buried a step back 3 in the same time frame all on Cedi while scapegoat Isaac Okoro sat on the bench.

[mcfly1204]

It's already been reported that they plan to try using Mobley as more a facilitator, so theoretically, that pulls someone out of the paint assuming he's operating from the elbow.

[JujitsuFlip]

The better question is why do we always blame him and spacing and not Mitchell for underperforming, which is the main reason we lost to begin with?

I'm not one to blame Okoro for us losing to the Knicks.

However, our spacing is what, in my opinion, made Mitchell underperform. Typically, he can swerve the lane and get to the basket, but the Knicks players were nearly all in the paint waiting for him.

This resulted in kick-outs to poor shooters or for him to self-generate middies and threes that happened to no go in. Re-watching the series does not make it seem that Mitchell underperformed, but instead was set up to fail.

The Knicks were going to pack the paint regardless of who we stuck in the corner, so long as that guy is the 5th option.

I don't agree with this at all.

Leave one of Mobley, Allen, or Jones at 5, none of them were out rebounding Robinson anyway. Put Niang at 4, Strus at 3, TJ at 2. Then whoever was having the better game out of Garland or Mitchell stays in at 1.

Good luck packing the paint Thibs, that team is gonna score more than 94 ppg.

Then they have great options to rotate in if the guys get tired or in foul trouble.

[JujitsuFlip]

Why are we acting like Okoro is the reason we lost to the Knicks?

He is 1 part of it.

Having Mobley, Allen, and Okoro not shooting 3s and Mitchell missing his, Garland can't space the floor by himself.

Koby didn't target Strus, Niang, and TJ because Okoro is a good and reliable 3 point shooter, that's for sure lol

[JujitsuFlip]

Why are we acting like Okoro is the reason we lost to the Knicks?

The better question is why do we always blame him and spacing and not Mitchell for underperforming, which is the main reason we lost to begin with?

I'm not one to blame Okoro for us losing to the Knicks.

However, our spacing is what, in my opinion, made Mitchell underperform. Typically, he can swerve the lane and get to the basket, but the Knicks players were nearly all in the paint waiting for him.

This resulted in kick-outs to poor shooters or for him to self-generate middies and threes that happened to no go in. Re-watching the series does not make it seem that Mitchell underperformed, but instead was set up to fail.

Exactly my take too.

[toooskies]

I'm not one to blame Okoro for us losing to the Knicks.

However, our spacing is what, in my opinion, made Mitchell underperform. Typically, he can swerve the lane and get to the basket, but the Knicks players were nearly all in the paint waiting for him.

This resulted in kick-outs to poor shooters or for him to self-generate middies and threes that happened to no go in. Re-watching the series does not make it seem that Mitchell underperformed, but instead was set up to fail.

The Knicks were going to pack the paint regardless of who we stuck in the corner, so long as that guy is the 5th option.

I don't agree with this at all.

Leave one of Mobley, Allen, or Jones at 5, none of them were out rebounding Robinson anyway. Put Niang at 4, Strus at 3, TJ at 2. Then whoever was having the better game out of Garland or Mitchell stays in at 1.

Good luck packing the paint Thibs, that team is gonna score more than 94 ppg.

Then they have great options to rotate in if the guys get tired or in foul trouble.

I'm not sure that's a better group of shooters than Cedi, LeVert, and Green. And it's an awful rebounding and defense team.

[JujitsuFlip]

The Knicks were going to pack the paint regardless of who we stuck in the corner, so long as that guy is the 5th option.

I don't agree with this at all.

Leave one of Mobley, Allen, or Jones at 5, none of them were out rebounding Robinson anyway. Put Niang at 4, Strus at 3, TJ at 2. Then whoever was having the better game out of Garland or Mitchell stays in at 1.

Good luck packing the paint Thibs, that team is gonna score more than 94 ppg.

Then they have great options to rotate in if the guys get tired or in foul trouble.

I'm not sure that's a better group of shooters than Cedi, LeVert, and Green. And it's an awful rebounding and defense team.

It is a 100% better shooting team than those you listed as has been pointed out in the past.

I'm sorry the Cavs didn't waste all their money this summer on Naz Reid and Wood. One guy wasn't a FA by the time the moratorium opened and the other guy is still a FA because he's a horrible locker room guy.

Edit: as mind blowing as this may be, Strus, Niang, and TJ weren't signed for their rebounding ability, I know that may be a shocking revelation but it's true.

When the Knicks had 4 guys in the paint and the spacing was worse than in a phone booth, it wasn't rebounding that the Cavs needed, crazy, I know.

[toooskies]

I don't agree with this at all.

Leave one of Mobley, Allen, or Jones at 5, none of them were out rebounding Robinson anyway. Put Niang at 4, Strus at 3, TJ at 2. Then whoever was having the better game out of Garland or Mitchell stays in at 1.

Good luck packing the paint Thibs, that team is gonna score more than 94 ppg.

Then they have great options to rotate in if the guys get tired or in foul trouble.

I'm not sure that's a better group of shooters than Cedi, LeVert, and Green. And it's an awful rebounding and defense team.

It is a 100% better shooting team than those you listed as has been pointed out in the past.

I'm sorry the Cavs didn't waste all their money this summer on Naz Reid and Wood. One guy wasn't a FA by the time the moratorium opened and the other guy is still a FA because he's a horrible locker room guy.

*shrug*

By 3p% last year, those six players in order are Green 44%, Niang 40%, LeVert 39%, Jerome 39%, Osman 37%, Strus 35%. Roughly even.

By career, it's Niang 40%, Green 40%, Strus 37%, Osman 35%, Jerome 35%, LeVert 34%. Only a slight improvement overall.

Maybe you're counting on Strus and Niang having playoff reps and not getting nervous-- that's why we played Green. But this was a losing bench group.

[JujitsuFlip]

I'm not sure that's a better group of shooters than Cedi, LeVert, and Green. And it's an awful rebounding and defense team.

It is a 100% better shooting team than those you listed as has been pointed out in the past.

I'm sorry the Cavs didn't waste all their money this summer on Naz Reid and Wood. One guy wasn't a FA by the time the moratorium opened and the other guy is still a FA because he's a horrible locker room guy.

*shrug*

By 3p% last year, those six players in order are Green 44%, Niang 40%, LeVert 39%, Jerome 39%, Osman 37%, Strus 35%. Roughly even.

By career, it's Niang 40%, Green 40%, Strus 37%, Osman 35%, Jerome 35%, LeVert 34%. Only a slight improvement overall.

Maybe you're counting on Strus and Niang having playoff reps and not getting nervous-- that's why we played Green. But this was a losing bench group.

That's one way to view it.

The volume + efficiency is what gives these guys "gravity".

Given the thread I'll throw in the other 2 SF options too.

Last year Strus 7.0 Niang 4.9 LeVert 4.4 Cedi 4.1 Green 3.4 Wade 2.9 Okoro 2.3 TJ 2.0

Career Strus 6.1 Green 4.8 Cedi 4.4 LeVert 4.2 Niang 3.7 TJ 3.1 Wade 2.9 Okoro 2.6

Corner 3% last year Niang 53.4% TJ 52.4% Strus 46.1% Cedi 43.0% Green 41.7% LeVert 41.3% Wade 40.4% Okoro 37.7%

Corner 3% career Strus 47.5% TJ 44.3% Niang 43.1% Green 42.3% Wade 38.7% Cedi 37.1% Okoro 36.4% LeVert 35.5%

You're comparing guys whose job it is to actually shoot it vs guys who are forced to shoot it.