Game 10: Cavs @ Kings 11/13/2023

[JujitsuFlip]

Any plan or move that hasn't already been shown it will work is an experiment. Whether anything will make the Cavs back out of their decision to start Strus is tbd, but generally lineups are evaluated based on 2 week intervals.

As of today according to BBR, our Core 4 with Strus are -3.2 PP100 .vs. +6.8 with Isaac or +16.2 with LeVert last year.

You just want to be sure the other 4 guys are playing up to snuff before assuming the new guy is the problem.

Yeah, gonna need more than 60 minutes together to determine that Okoro should be gifted the SF spot again.

I'd still fire JB first before i just glue Strus and Niang to the bench but that's just me.

I just wouldn't call it gifting ... Isaac fills a useful role when he plays starting SF even if the only thing he's doing is expending energy guarding a tough PG or SG and sparing Garland or Mitchell that effort so they can burn their energy on offense.

Heck, Isaac could play the first 5 minutes of the 1st and 3rd quarters just to help set the tone and there'd still be 38 more minutes to go around.

Well, i just call it gifting because there's no reason to have 3 guys who don't look at 3 pointers. In the regular season, it obviously works.

I'd just like to get a head coach who can learn to use Strus and Niang effectively in lineups (heck maybe even Merrill and TJ too) without having to revert back to defense heavy, slow pace, and tight rotations.

[jbk1234]

Change can be hard even when you have your full roster for training camp and most of the season. Heck, while I like what I've seen from Strus, I consider starting at him at SF to be an experiment. So is increasing the pace.

We're approaching the two week mark where we've been able to play our starting lineup, that's often an evaluation point for determining if we should try some other combination.

I'm certainly not opposed to the team firing JBB, I'm just trying to look at the realities of the situation, the timing, the signs, etc. If we do fire JBB, we need to make sure we can find someone better (even if it's just interim) to replace him - or else why bother?

I don't think starting Strus is experimental, that was the plan all along, whole reason they got him.

Anyone has to be better than this guy, like honestly.

Any plan or move that hasn't already been shown it will work is an experiment. Whether anything will make the Cavs back out of their decision to start Strus is tbd, but generally lineups are evaluated based on 2 week intervals.

As of today according to BBR, our Core 4 with Strus are -3.2 PP100 .vs. +6.8 with Isaac or +16.2 with LeVert last year.

You just want to be sure the other 4 guys are playing up to snuff before assuming the new guy is the problem.

I mean if you believe Okoro's +/- from last year would hold up over the same ten game sample size from this season, that's what you believe, but I'm deeply skeptical. In fact, given how much pressure our opponents are putting on Garland and Mitchell as the primary ball handlers (often starting at half court) this season, I suspect the results might be worse. Strus is a far better safety valve.

POA defense wasn't the problem against the Kings. Sabonis lead them in assists and free throws .Few of his 23 points were assisted. Add in a rather dumb halftime adjustment of having the perimeter guys pinch down into the paint against a team like the Kings, and we were buried by a barrage of 3 pointers.

This isn't to say we didn't miss Okoro against the Kings. We did. He would've been very useful in rotation minutes. I just don't see how starting him would've helped.

Opposing teams picked up two things from the Knicks series: Press the Cavs before they can even get into their offense, and as we're attempting to play at a higher pace, we're often running right into it; and test the officials early to see if you can get a couple of bad calls on Allen and/or Mobley. The latter is the more serious issue IMO as it's not entirely under the Cavs control.

[JonFromVA]

I don't think starting Strus is experimental, that was the plan all along, whole reason they got him.

Anyone has to be better than this guy, like honestly.

Any plan or move that hasn't already been shown it will work is an experiment. Whether anything will make the Cavs back out of their decision to start Strus is tbd, but generally lineups are evaluated based on 2 week intervals.

As of today according to BBR, our Core 4 with Strus are -3.2 PP100 .vs. +6.8 with Isaac or +16.2 with LeVert last year.

You just want to be sure the other 4 guys are playing up to snuff before assuming the new guy is the problem.

I mean if you believe Okoro's +/- from last year would hold up over the same ten game sample size from this season, that's what you believe, but I'm deeply skeptical. In fact, given how much pressure our opponents are putting on Garland and Mitchell as the primary ball handlers (often starting at half court) this season, I suspect the results might be worse. Strus is a far better safety valve.

POA defense wasn't the problem against the Kings. Sabonis lead them in assists and free throws .Few of his 23 points were assisted. Add in a rather dumb halftime adjustment of having the perimeter guys pinch down into the paint against a team like the Kings, and we were buried by a barrage of 3 pointers.

This isn't to say we didn't miss Okoro against the Kings. We did. He would've been very useful in rotation minutes. I just don't see how starting him would've helped.

Opposing teams picked up two things from the Knicks series: Press the Cavs before they can even get into their offense, and as we're attempting to play at a higher pace, we're often running right into it; and test the officials early to see if you can get a couple of bad calls on Allen and/or Mobley. The latter is the more serious issue IMO as it's not entirely under the Cavs control.

Nope, I didn't claim we'd have had more success if Isaac replaced Strus. My claim is we haven't had success with Strus so far, and at least we did in the past with Isaac. So, one guy needs to prove he can work with our starting lineup - while the other guy already has.

Your theory that the Knicks figured out the Cavs and other teams are now exploiting it is an interesting one, but I'm not convinced it's anything more than the slew of early season injuries disrupting the team.

[JonFromVA]

Yeah, gonna need more than 60 minutes together to determine that Okoro should be gifted the SF spot again.

I'd still fire JB first before i just glue Strus and Niang to the bench but that's just me.

I just wouldn't call it gifting ... Isaac fills a useful role when he plays starting SF even if the only thing he's doing is expending energy guarding a tough PG or SG and sparing Garland or Mitchell that effort so they can burn their energy on offense.

Heck, Isaac could play the first 5 minutes of the 1st and 3rd quarters just to help set the tone and there'd still be 38 more minutes to go around.

Well, i just call it gifting because there's no reason to have 3 guys who don't look at 3 pointers. In the regular season, it obviously works.

I'd just like to get a head coach who can learn to use Strus and Niang effectively in lineups (heck maybe even Merrill and TJ too) without having to revert back to defense heavy, slow pace, and tight rotations.

Well, we touched on what our options would be if the Cavs fired JBB and I was reminded today that we did hire David Joeger as some sort of a consultant. Given his ties to JBB and Luke, it doesn't seem like he was brought in to replace them; more the opposite that he was a safe guy they could bring in without JBB having to look over his shoulder; but I still recall Ty Lue mentioning how conflicted he was taking over mid-season for John Beilein, so ... who knows ... just something to ponder.

[jbk1234]

Any plan or move that hasn't already been shown it will work is an experiment. Whether anything will make the Cavs back out of their decision to start Strus is tbd, but generally lineups are evaluated based on 2 week intervals.

As of today according to BBR, our Core 4 with Strus are -3.2 PP100 .vs. +6.8 with Isaac or +16.2 with LeVert last year.

You just want to be sure the other 4 guys are playing up to snuff before assuming the new guy is the problem.

I mean if you believe Okoro's +/- from last year would hold up over the same ten game sample size from this season, that's what you believe, but I'm deeply skeptical. In fact, given how much pressure our opponents are putting on Garland and Mitchell as the primary ball handlers (often starting at half court) this season, I suspect the results might be worse. Strus is a far better safety valve.

POA defense wasn't the problem against the Kings. Sabonis lead them in assists and free throws .Few of his 23 points were assisted. Add in a rather dumb halftime adjustment of having the perimeter guys pinch down into the paint against a team like the Kings, and we were buried by a barrage of 3 pointers.

This isn't to say we didn't miss Okoro against the Kings. We did. He would've been very useful in rotation minutes. I just don't see how starting him would've helped.

Opposing teams picked up two things from the Knicks series: Press the Cavs before they can even get into their offense, and as we're attempting to play at a higher pace, we're often running right into it; and test the officials early to see if you can get a couple of bad calls on Allen and/or Mobley. The latter is the more serious issue IMO as it's not entirely under the Cavs control.

Nope, I didn't claim we'd have had more success if Isaac replaced Strus. My claim is we haven't had success with Strus so far, and at least we did in the past with Isaac. So, one guy needs to prove he can work with our starting lineup - while the other guy already has.

Your theory that the Knicks figured out the Cavs and other teams are now exploiting it is an interesting one, but I'm not convinced it's anything more than the slew of early season injuries disrupting the team.

The quality of opponent matters and there were plenty of red flags over the course of last season when we lost to good teams. It really depends on how you define *worked* with Okoro. You only face good teams in the playoffs and the Cavs have to learn how to win against good teams. They have to learn how to win against different types of good teams that are constructed differently. If there's a silver lining to all of this, it's that the Cavs won't suffer from the sort of false confidence that's plagued them the prior two years.

[JujitsuFlip]

I just wouldn't call it gifting ... Isaac fills a useful role when he plays starting SF even if the only thing he's doing is expending energy guarding a tough PG or SG and sparing Garland or Mitchell that effort so they can burn their energy on offense.

Heck, Isaac could play the first 5 minutes of the 1st and 3rd quarters just to help set the tone and there'd still be 38 more minutes to go around.

Well, i just call it gifting because there's no reason to have 3 guys who don't look at 3 pointers. In the regular season, it obviously works.

I'd just like to get a head coach who can learn to use Strus and Niang effectively in lineups (heck maybe even Merrill and TJ too) without having to revert back to defense heavy, slow pace, and tight rotations.

Well, we touched on what our options would be if the Cavs fired JBB and I was reminded today that we did hire David Joeger as some sort of a consultant. Given his ties to JBB and Luke, it doesn't seem like he was brought in to replace them; more the opposite that he was a safe guy they could bring in without JBB having to look over his shoulder; but I still recall Ty Lue mentioning how conflicted he was taking over mid-season for John Beilein, so ... who knows ... just something to ponder.

Well, Lue took over for Blatt mid season but yes JB took over for Beilein then a global pandemic happened.

I think in both cases the associate head coach probably did feel awkward.

[JonFromVA]

I mean if you believe Okoro's +/- from last year would hold up over the same ten game sample size from this season, that's what you believe, but I'm deeply skeptical. In fact, given how much pressure our opponents are putting on Garland and Mitchell as the primary ball handlers (often starting at half court) this season, I suspect the results might be worse. Strus is a far better safety valve.

POA defense wasn't the problem against the Kings. Sabonis lead them in assists and free throws .Few of his 23 points were assisted. Add in a rather dumb halftime adjustment of having the perimeter guys pinch down into the paint against a team like the Kings, and we were buried by a barrage of 3 pointers.

This isn't to say we didn't miss Okoro against the Kings. We did. He would've been very useful in rotation minutes. I just don't see how starting him would've helped.

Opposing teams picked up two things from the Knicks series: Press the Cavs before they can even get into their offense, and as we're attempting to play at a higher pace, we're often running right into it; and test the officials early to see if you can get a couple of bad calls on Allen and/or Mobley. The latter is the more serious issue IMO as it's not entirely under the Cavs control.

Nope, I didn't claim we'd have had more success if Isaac replaced Strus. My claim is we haven't had success with Strus so far, and at least we did in the past with Isaac. So, one guy needs to prove he can work with our starting lineup - while the other guy already has.

Your theory that the Knicks figured out the Cavs and other teams are now exploiting it is an interesting one, but I'm not convinced it's anything more than the slew of early season injuries disrupting the team.

The quality of opponent matters and there were plenty of red flags over the course of last season when we lost to good teams. It really depends on how you define *worked* with Okoro. You only face good teams in the playoffs and the Cavs have to learn how to win against good teams. They have to learn how to win against different types of good teams that are constructed differently. If there's a silver lining to all of this, it's that the Cavs won't suffer from the sort of false confidence that's plagued them the prior two years.

There are endless lessons for a young team, but it's pretty hard to blame Isaac for anything that happened in the Knicks series when the Cavs didn't win a single game after JBB's "big adjustment" of taking Isaac out of the starting lineup.

[JonFromVA]

Well, i just call it gifting because there's no reason to have 3 guys who don't look at 3 pointers. In the regular season, it obviously works.

I'd just like to get a head coach who can learn to use Strus and Niang effectively in lineups (heck maybe even Merrill and TJ too) without having to revert back to defense heavy, slow pace, and tight rotations.

Well, we touched on what our options would be if the Cavs fired JBB and I was reminded today that we did hire David Joeger as some sort of a consultant. Given his ties to JBB and Luke, it doesn't seem like he was brought in to replace them; more the opposite that he was a safe guy they could bring in without JBB having to look over his shoulder; but I still recall Ty Lue mentioning how conflicted he was taking over mid-season for John Beilein, so ... who knows ... just something to ponder.

Well, Lue took over for Blatt mid season but yes JB took over for Beilein then a global pandemic happened.

I think in both cases the associate head coach probably did feel awkward.

I'm pretty sure it was Lue/Blatt I'm remembering given Beilein resigned and not with a winning record and a finals appearance under his belt. In both cases the FO had a successor in mind from the get go.

Do they this time?

Perhaps not given this wasn't a Dan Gilbert's guy .vs. the GM's guy situation.

[jbk1234]

Nope, I didn't claim we'd have had more success if Isaac replaced Strus. My claim is we haven't had success with Strus so far, and at least we did in the past with Isaac. So, one guy needs to prove he can work with our starting lineup - while the other guy already has.

Your theory that the Knicks figured out the Cavs and other teams are now exploiting it is an interesting one, but I'm not convinced it's anything more than the slew of early season injuries disrupting the team.

The quality of opponent matters and there were plenty of red flags over the course of last season when we lost to good teams. It really depends on how you define *worked* with Okoro. You only face good teams in the playoffs and the Cavs have to learn how to win against good teams. They have to learn how to win against different types of good teams that are constructed differently. If there's a silver lining to all of this, it's that the Cavs won't suffer from the sort of false confidence that's plagued them the prior two years.

There are endless lessons for a young team, but it's pretty hard to blame Isaac for anything that happened in the Knicks series when the Cavs didn't win a single game after JBB's "big adjustment" of taking Isaac out of the starting lineup.

He played 3 minutes in our only win? If you want to give him credit as a starter for that game, you can, but it's easier to draw the opposite conclusion. There's plenty of blame to go around for that series, LeVert in Game 1, Garland in Game 3, Mitchell for shoot in poorly over the course of the series, JBB for a litany of reasons, but the opposing team feeling free to play 20 feet off your starting SF isn't going to end well.

[JonFromVA]

The quality of opponent matters and there were plenty of red flags over the course of last season when we lost to good teams. It really depends on how you define *worked* with Okoro. You only face good teams in the playoffs and the Cavs have to learn how to win against good teams. They have to learn how to win against different types of good teams that are constructed differently. If there's a silver lining to all of this, it's that the Cavs won't suffer from the sort of false confidence that's plagued them the prior two years.

There are endless lessons for a young team, but it's pretty hard to blame Isaac for anything that happened in the Knicks series when the Cavs didn't win a single game after JBB's "big adjustment" of taking Isaac out of the starting lineup.

He played 3 minutes in our only win? If you want to give him credit as a starter for that game, you can, but it's easier to draw the opposite conclusion. There's plenty of blame to go around for that series, LeVert in Game 1, Garland in Game 3, Mitchell for shoot in poorly over the course of the series, JBB for a litany of reasons, but the opposing team feeling free to play 20 feet off your starting SF isn't going to end well.

Why do you keep arguing the inverse of what I say?

I said Isaac doesn't deserve to take the blame for us losing that series, that in no way implies he deserves credit for our single win where he was forced out of the game due to foul trouble and then ignored.

The evidence is by no means perfect and doesn't necessarily tell us what we should be doing, but I'm going to keep pointing at it because everything else is conjecture that may or may not eventually be supported by that evidence.

In short, we need to get healthy, JBB needs to work out these lineups, and Strus needs to show he deserves the big role he's being handed.

Meanwhile the Heat have some new players we've never heard of knocking down 3pters in place of Strus and Vincent because that's what they do.

[JujitsuFlip]

Well, we touched on what our options would be if the Cavs fired JBB and I was reminded today that we did hire David Joeger as some sort of a consultant. Given his ties to JBB and Luke, it doesn't seem like he was brought in to replace them; more the opposite that he was a safe guy they could bring in without JBB having to look over his shoulder; but I still recall Ty Lue mentioning how conflicted he was taking over mid-season for John Beilein, so ... who knows ... just something to ponder.

Well, Lue took over for Blatt mid season but yes JB took over for Beilein then a global pandemic happened.

I think in both cases the associate head coach probably did feel awkward.

I'm pretty sure it was Lue/Blatt I'm remembering given Beilein resigned and not with a winning record and a finals appearance under his belt. In both cases the FO had a successor in mind from the get go.

Do they this time?

Perhaps not given this wasn't a Dan Gilbert's guy .vs. the GM's guy situation.

Yeah, you probably are thinking of Lue/Blatt.

But you're right in both instances the Cavs hired a great X and O guy from a different league and put a tenured assistant coach behind him at associate head coach.

The one thing you're forgetting is Lue was fired with no safety valve in place and that is where the Cavs are now with JB.

For the rest of the season, i assume these 3 guys would be the top choices. Greg Buckner (associate head coach), Luke Walton (former head coach, former Cavs player), or David Joeger (consultant and successful to some degree former head coach).

[jbk1234]

There are endless lessons for a young team, but it's pretty hard to blame Isaac for anything that happened in the Knicks series when the Cavs didn't win a single game after JBB's "big adjustment" of taking Isaac out of the starting lineup.

He played 3 minutes in our only win? If you want to give him credit as a starter for that game, you can, but it's easier to draw the opposite conclusion. There's plenty of blame to go around for that series, LeVert in Game 1, Garland in Game 3, Mitchell for shoot in poorly over the course of the series, JBB for a litany of reasons, but the opposing team feeling free to play 20 feet off your starting SF isn't going to end well.

Why do you keep arguing the inverse of what I say?

I said Isaac doesn't deserve to take the blame for us losing that series, that in no way implies he deserves credit for our single win where he was forced out of the game due to foul trouble and then ignored.

The evidence is by no means perfect and doesn't necessarily tell us what we should be doing, but I'm going to keep pointing at it because everything else is conjecture that may or may not eventually be supported by that evidence.

In short, we need to get healthy, JBB needs to work out these lineups, and Strus needs to show he deserves the big role he's being handed.

Meanwhile the Heat have some new players we've never heard of knocking down 3pters in place of Strus and Vincent because that's what they do.

Just watching how our two best options on offense are being defended this year, I find it very difficult to believe that Okoro is the answer.

It's not clear to me what else people want from Strus. He was the only starter with a positive +/- against the Kings. He and Mobley are the only starters to have played in all 10 games. He's currently shooting 367 from 3 on a hair under 8 attempts a game. He's primarily responsible for one of our four wins this season. His job is to play decent defense and space the floor, or at least make the opposing team pay when they leave him.

Now, if Mobley and Allen can't do anything with the additional space they're getting as a result of Strus, AND opposing defenses playing that far out Garland/Mitchell, that's a different problem which the Cavs need to solve. If Mitchell needs to learn to be a better off ball player, then that's a conversation that needs to happen.

It was fairly obvious, to me anyway, that our offense wasn't going to get it done against good teams in the playoffs last year. I don't expect a different ending to current season without improvement on that end of the court.

[JonFromVA]

Well, Lue took over for Blatt mid season but yes JB took over for Beilein then a global pandemic happened.

I think in both cases the associate head coach probably did feel awkward.

I'm pretty sure it was Lue/Blatt I'm remembering given Beilein resigned and not with a winning record and a finals appearance under his belt. In both cases the FO had a successor in mind from the get go.

Do they this time?

Perhaps not given this wasn't a Dan Gilbert's guy .vs. the GM's guy situation.

Yeah, you probably are thinking of Lue/Blatt.

But you're right in both instances the Cavs hired a great X and O guy from a different league and put a tenured assistant coach behind him at associate head coach.

The one thing you're forgetting is Lue was fired with no safety valve in place and that is where the Cavs are now with JB.

For the rest of the season, i assume these 3 guys would be the top choices. Greg Buckner (associate head coach), Luke Walton (former head coach, former Cavs player), or David Joeger (consultant and successful to some degree former head coach).

Lue was the GM's pick, just like Bickerstaff. It's only when Dan Gilbert insists on his guy that our GM tries to hedge that bet. If the choice rests with Altman, I agree with your list; but Dan may have other ideas.

[JonFromVA]

He played 3 minutes in our only win? If you want to give him credit as a starter for that game, you can, but it's easier to draw the opposite conclusion. There's plenty of blame to go around for that series, LeVert in Game 1, Garland in Game 3, Mitchell for shoot in poorly over the course of the series, JBB for a litany of reasons, but the opposing team feeling free to play 20 feet off your starting SF isn't going to end well.

Why do you keep arguing the inverse of what I say?

I said Isaac doesn't deserve to take the blame for us losing that series, that in no way implies he deserves credit for our single win where he was forced out of the game due to foul trouble and then ignored.

The evidence is by no means perfect and doesn't necessarily tell us what we should be doing, but I'm going to keep pointing at it because everything else is conjecture that may or may not eventually be supported by that evidence.

In short, we need to get healthy, JBB needs to work out these lineups, and Strus needs to show he deserves the big role he's being handed.

Meanwhile the Heat have some new players we've never heard of knocking down 3pters in place of Strus and Vincent because that's what they do.

Just watching how our two best options on offense are being defended this year, I find it very difficult to believe that Okoro is the answer.

It's not clear to me what else people want from Strus. He was the only starter with a positive +/- against the Kings. He and Mobley are the only starters to have played in all 10 games. He's currently shooting 367 from 3 on a hair under 8 attempts a game. He's primarily responsible for one of our four wins this season. His job is to play decent defense and space the floor, or at least make the opposing team pay when they leave him.

Now, if Mobley and Allen can't do anything with the additional space they're getting as a result of Strus, AND opposing defenses playing that far out Garland/Mitchell, that's a different problem which the Cavs need to solve. If Mitchell needs to learn to be a better off ball player, then that's a conversation that needs to happen.

It was fairly obvious, to me anyway, that our offense wasn't going to get it done against good teams in the playoffs last year. I don't expect a different ending to current season without improvement on that end of the court.

What we suspect is the problem is not necessarily the root problem. The data will eventually show us the truth. Maybe we need to go 4 out or even 5 out to provide the spacing needed for Mitchell or Garland to play significantly different and you know we're in no rush to roll that out except in certain bench units. Or maybe they just need more time. We shall see.

[jbk1234]

Why do you keep arguing the inverse of what I say?

I said Isaac doesn't deserve to take the blame for us losing that series, that in no way implies he deserves credit for our single win where he was forced out of the game due to foul trouble and then ignored.

The evidence is by no means perfect and doesn't necessarily tell us what we should be doing, but I'm going to keep pointing at it because everything else is conjecture that may or may not eventually be supported by that evidence.

In short, we need to get healthy, JBB needs to work out these lineups, and Strus needs to show he deserves the big role he's being handed.

Meanwhile the Heat have some new players we've never heard of knocking down 3pters in place of Strus and Vincent because that's what they do.

Just watching how our two best options on offense are being defended this year, I find it very difficult to believe that Okoro is the answer.

It's not clear to me what else people want from Strus. He was the only starter with a positive +/- against the Kings. He and Mobley are the only starters to have played in all 10 games. He's currently shooting 367 from 3 on a hair under 8 attempts a game. He's primarily responsible for one of our four wins this season. His job is to play decent defense and space the floor, or at least make the opposing team pay when they leave him.

Now, if Mobley and Allen can't do anything with the additional space they're getting as a result of Strus, AND opposing defenses playing that far out Garland/Mitchell, that's a different problem which the Cavs need to solve. If Mitchell needs to learn to be a better off ball player, then that's a conversation that needs to happen.

It was fairly obvious, to me anyway, that our offense wasn't going to get it done against good teams in the playoffs last year. I don't expect a different ending to current season without improvement on that end of the court.

What we suspect is the problem is not necessarily the root problem. The data will eventually show us the truth. Maybe we need to go 4 out or even 5 out to provide the spacing needed for Mitchell or Garland to play significantly different and you know we're in no rush to roll that out except in certain bench units. Or maybe they just need more time. We shall see.

I think both you and Tooskie are overly reliant on data sets that include information that is potentially misleading. We beat bad teams because we have more talent than they do, we play bettet defense than they do, and they usually make more mistakes than we do. It almost doesn't matter who the 5th starter is against bad teams. What we need to solve for is beating good teams.

Also, as one of Garland/Mitchell AND Allen/Mobley are almost always on the floor with the second unit, we dont really have a second unit. The result is that our core 4 players don't get enough minutes playing with one another (let alone the 5th starter) while simultaneously managing to play too many minutes over the course of the season. I get why JBB does it, but it has its downsides.

[JujitsuFlip]

I'm pretty sure it was Lue/Blatt I'm remembering given Beilein resigned and not with a winning record and a finals appearance under his belt. In both cases the FO had a successor in mind from the get go.

Do they this time?

Perhaps not given this wasn't a Dan Gilbert's guy .vs. the GM's guy situation.

Yeah, you probably are thinking of Lue/Blatt.

But you're right in both instances the Cavs hired a great X and O guy from a different league and put a tenured assistant coach behind him at associate head coach.

The one thing you're forgetting is Lue was fired with no safety valve in place and that is where the Cavs are now with JB.

For the rest of the season, i assume these 3 guys would be the top choices. Greg Buckner (associate head coach), Luke Walton (former head coach, former Cavs player), or David Joeger (consultant and successful to some degree former head coach).

Lue was the GM's pick, just like Bickerstaff. It's only when Dan Gilbert insists on his guy that our GM tries to hedge that bet. If the choice rests with Altman, I agree with your list; but Dan may have other ideas.

I'm just saying where we're at is JB getting fired without a hedged bet, because Lue was fired without a hedged bet.

They don't typically hedge the hedge.

Lue was the safety valve for Blatt. Then was fired into the season.

JB was the safety valve for Beilein. So if JB gets fired during this season, they aren't gonna have a guy lined up on his staff, most likely.

It is going to get to a point where it won't really matter because we'll be so deep into the season but honestly the sooner the better, imo.

Or maybe Dave or Luke are the Gilbert families hedge, not sure.

[JonFromVA]

Just watching how our two best options on offense are being defended this year, I find it very difficult to believe that Okoro is the answer.

It's not clear to me what else people want from Strus. He was the only starter with a positive +/- against the Kings. He and Mobley are the only starters to have played in all 10 games. He's currently shooting 367 from 3 on a hair under 8 attempts a game. He's primarily responsible for one of our four wins this season. His job is to play decent defense and space the floor, or at least make the opposing team pay when they leave him.

Now, if Mobley and Allen can't do anything with the additional space they're getting as a result of Strus, AND opposing defenses playing that far out Garland/Mitchell, that's a different problem which the Cavs need to solve. If Mitchell needs to learn to be a better off ball player, then that's a conversation that needs to happen.

It was fairly obvious, to me anyway, that our offense wasn't going to get it done against good teams in the playoffs last year. I don't expect a different ending to current season without improvement on that end of the court.

What we suspect is the problem is not necessarily the root problem. The data will eventually show us the truth. Maybe we need to go 4 out or even 5 out to provide the spacing needed for Mitchell or Garland to play significantly different and you know we're in no rush to roll that out except in certain bench units. Or maybe they just need more time. We shall see.

I think both you and Tooskie are overly reliant on data sets that include information that is potentially misleading. We beat bad teams because we have more talent than they do, we play bettet defense than they do, and they usually make more mistakes than we do. It almost doesn't matter who the 5th starter is against bad teams. What we need to solve for is beating good teams.

Also, as one of Garland/Mitchell AND Allen/Mobley are almost always on the floor with the second unit, we dont really have a second unit. The result is that our core 4 players don't get enough minutes playing with one another (let alone the 5th starter) while simultaneously managing to play too many minutes over the course of the season. I get why JBB does it, but it has its downsides.

Again, you're trying to turn an argument on it's head. Pointing out what the evidence says or doesn't say, is not the same thing as drawing bad conclusions from a lack of evidence.

Fact is our intended starting lineups do end up getting the most minutes. 60 minutes of lineup data for our intended starters is not good, but health be willing those guys will get up over 100 minutes soon enough and that's enough to at least consider.

Given the injury and possibly chemistry problems, I'll mostly be looking at how that lineup is trending.

[JonFromVA]

Yeah, you probably are thinking of Lue/Blatt.

But you're right in both instances the Cavs hired a great X and O guy from a different league and put a tenured assistant coach behind him at associate head coach.

The one thing you're forgetting is Lue was fired with no safety valve in place and that is where the Cavs are now with JB.

For the rest of the season, i assume these 3 guys would be the top choices. Greg Buckner (associate head coach), Luke Walton (former head coach, former Cavs player), or David Joeger (consultant and successful to some degree former head coach).

Lue was the GM's pick, just like Bickerstaff. It's only when Dan Gilbert insists on his guy that our GM tries to hedge that bet. If the choice rests with Altman, I agree with your list; but Dan may have other ideas.

I'm just saying where we're at is JB getting fired without a hedged bet, because Lue was fired without a hedged bet.

They don't typically hedge the hedge.

Lue was the safety valve for Blatt. Then was fired into the season.

JB was the safety valve for Beilein. So if JB gets fired during this season, they aren't gonna have a guy lined up on his staff, most likely.

It is going to get to a point where it won't really matter because we'll be so deep into the season but honestly the sooner the better, imo.

Or maybe Dave or Luke are the Gilbert families hedge, not sure.

Bottom line is if they fire JBB, they'd better at least have convinced themselves they have a better plan. Ty Lue was basically fired because he wouldn't let the FO tell him how to coach. The end result for the FO was the same, lots of minutes for Collin Sexton and very few wins from playing vets that were not expected to make it through the rebuild.

In this case, there's a lot more on the line and they can't just assume anything is better than JBB.

[JujitsuFlip]

Lue was the GM's pick, just like Bickerstaff. It's only when Dan Gilbert insists on his guy that our GM tries to hedge that bet. If the choice rests with Altman, I agree with your list; but Dan may have other ideas.

I'm just saying where we're at is JB getting fired without a hedged bet, because Lue was fired without a hedged bet.

They don't typically hedge the hedge.

Lue was the safety valve for Blatt. Then was fired into the season.

JB was the safety valve for Beilein. So if JB gets fired during this season, they aren't gonna have a guy lined up on his staff, most likely.

It is going to get to a point where it won't really matter because we'll be so deep into the season but honestly the sooner the better, imo.

Or maybe Dave or Luke are the Gilbert families hedge, not sure.

Bottom line is if they fire JBB, they'd better at least have convinced themselves they have a better plan. Ty Lue was basically fired because he wouldn't let the FO tell him how to coach. The end result for the FO was the same, lots of minutes for Collin Sexton and very few wins from playing vets that were not expected to make it through the rebuild.

In this case, there's a lot more on the line and they can't just assume anything is better than JBB.

In all honesty it probably is though, won't really know until they trim the fat and dive in the deep in.

I for one am very excited to see how much better this team can be under a competent head coach.

[JonFromVA]

I'm just saying where we're at is JB getting fired without a hedged bet, because Lue was fired without a hedged bet.

They don't typically hedge the hedge.

Lue was the safety valve for Blatt. Then was fired into the season.

JB was the safety valve for Beilein. So if JB gets fired during this season, they aren't gonna have a guy lined up on his staff, most likely.

It is going to get to a point where it won't really matter because we'll be so deep into the season but honestly the sooner the better, imo.

Or maybe Dave or Luke are the Gilbert families hedge, not sure.

Bottom line is if they fire JBB, they'd better at least have convinced themselves they have a better plan. Ty Lue was basically fired because he wouldn't let the FO tell him how to coach. The end result for the FO was the same, lots of minutes for Collin Sexton and very few wins from playing vets that were not expected to make it through the rebuild.

In this case, there's a lot more on the line and they can't just assume anything is better than JBB.

In all honesty it probably is though, won't really know until they trim the fat and dive in the deep in.

I for one am very excited to see how much better this team can be under a competent head coach.

Sacramento didn't feel Luke Walton was competent. Maybe he's better? Do we want to risk our season and Mitchell's decision to extend on that?