Game 20: Cavs @ Pistons 12/2/2023

[ijspeelman]

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^ TLDR: LeVert out

[Iwasawitness]

Why do I have a bad feeling about tonight's game?

[jasonxxx102]

At this point it’s time to start asking whether JB is losing the team. You get embarrassed at home by the blazers and come out totally flat against the pistons.

Nobody looks like they care to play right now

[Iwasawitness]

Looks like the Cavs are back to taking things seriously again. But they need to make sure they don't take their foot off the gas pedal like they did against the Blazers.

[Iwasawitness]

I don’t even know what else to say at this point. If we manage to lose this game after what happened against Portland, changes will need to be made. I don’t see how you can justify not doing so.

[ijspeelman]

I don't where I am on the play more than eight guys conversation. I think they are times to slim down the roster and times to play more guys.

That all being said, I think JB is making the right move to play more guys while being down to a struggling Pistons team (win or loss). This loss would be downright terrible, but at least he's trying something different rotation wise instead of slamming a square peg into a round hole.

[Iwasawitness]

I don't where I am on the play more than eight guys conversation. I think they are times to slim down the roster and times to play more guys.

That all being said, I think JB is making the right move to play more guys while being down to a struggling Pistons team (win or loss). This loss would be downright terrible, but at least he's trying something different rotation wise instead of slamming a square peg into a round hole.

Well it worked apparently because now Cleveland has a ten point lead in the fourth.

[Iwasawitness]

And we let them right back into the game…

[toooskies]

Rough road, but we got the win. No real good signs here, though.

[JujitsuFlip]

7 man rotation, for the win lololol against a team on a 16 game losing streak on December 2nd, for a single digit win. Heck yeah JB, run them guys into the ground so come April they have nothing left in the tank. Then he can passive aggressively say their conditioning should be better instead of taking an ounce of accountability for his terrible coaching.

[ijspeelman]

I don't where I am on the play more than eight guys conversation. I think they are times to slim down the roster and times to play more guys.

That all being said, I think JB is making the right move to play more guys while being down to a struggling Pistons team (win or loss). This loss would be downright terrible, but at least he's trying something different rotation wise instead of slamming a square peg into a round hole.

I am just going to reply to myself because at the time I made this JB had played all of Thompson, Merrill, and CPJ. Then they were not played again lol. They were collectively the eighth man that played I guess.

I would like to take a moment and say that the takes of “why didn’t Mobley/Allen get more shot attempts?” are a bit misguided (they are not currently in this thread, but were in the last thread and external threads). Allen and Mobley getting shots is and should be part of the flow of the offense. That involves getting mismatches or having a player penetrate the defense to set-up Mobley/Allen for their move/shot. When I hear this take, it seems fans are just asking for Mobley and Allen simply to shoot more which would involve them self-generating shots (which I would say has not been a reliable form of offense for either player). Basically, to get these guys shots we need plays or sets that open up the defense in a way that allows Mobley and Allen advantages.

I think that is a better argument against the coaching staff than just Mobley/Allen need more shots. I think it’s a very bad sign when they are not getting shots because it typically means the defense is doing something that is preventing our best shots at the rim.

[toooskies]

7 man rotation, for the win lololol against a team on a 16 game losing streak on December 2nd, for a single digit win. Heck yeah JB, run them guys into the ground so come April they have nothing left in the tank. Then he can passive aggressively say their conditioning should be better instead of taking an ounce of accountability for his terrible coaching.

The counter-argument here is that JBB tried three guys who played for 10 total minutes, they went 0-2 with virtually no stats except fouls, and decided against giving them a second run. We have 3 full days off before our next game, and no one got above 37 minutes. No one who played over 30 minutes isn't a relatively young player who has played starting minutes. The team's 6th (LeVert), 7th (Rubio), 10th (Wade), and 11th (Jerome) men are all out. And if you believe the internet, JBB was going to be fired if he lost this game.

The relentless pressure on the team to win now is the literal problem. We should not care about wins and losses in December to any significant degree. Especially when injury has played such a big role in our record.

We are now 7-3 in our last 10 games. Our next 5 games are all against teams that are higher than us in the standings. Pretty sure JBB can't go 0-5 here, but let's not freak out over a few losses.

[JujitsuFlip]

7 man rotation, for the win lololol against a team on a 16 game losing streak on December 2nd, for a single digit win. Heck yeah JB, run them guys into the ground so come April they have nothing left in the tank. Then he can passive aggressively say their conditioning should be better instead of taking an ounce of accountability for his terrible coaching.

The counter-argument here is that JBB tried three guys who played for 10 total minutes, they went 0-2 with virtually no stats except fouls, and decided against giving them a second run. We have 3 full days off before our next game, and no one got above 37 minutes. No one who played over 30 minutes isn't a relatively young player who has played starting minutes. The team's 6th (LeVert), 7th (Rubio), 10th (Wade), and 11th (Jerome) men are all out. And if you believe the internet, JBB was going to be fired if he lost this game.

The relentless pressure on the team to win now is the literal problem. We should not care about wins and losses in December to any significant degree. Especially when injury has played such a big role in our record.

We are now 7-3 in our last 10 games. Our next 5 games are all against teams that are higher than us in the standings. Pretty sure JBB can't go 0-5 here, but let's not freak out over a few losses.

JB is in year 5 toooskies, we have gotta stop acting like this is a rookie head coach.

Edit: also that's hilarious to me, 3 guys played a combined 9:15 and you're trying to justify bum JB only playing 7 guys in the rotation against the worst team in basketball for regular season game 20.

Sidebar Rubio isn't the 7th best player on this team, not sure how you arrived at that conclusion...

Everyone keeps getting hurt because JB runs them into the ground, not that difficult to figure out.

[jasonxxx102]

7 man rotation, for the win lololol against a team on a 16 game losing streak on December 2nd, for a single digit win. Heck yeah JB, run them guys into the ground so come April they have nothing left in the tank. Then he can passive aggressively say their conditioning should be better instead of taking an ounce of accountability for his terrible coaching.

The relentless pressure on the team to win now is the literal problem. We should not care about wins and losses in December to any significant degree. Especially when injury has played such a big role in our record.

This attitude is just mind blowing to me.

What was this season supposed to be to people? Should we just be happy with mediocre? I guess according to this.

The idea that teams just “turn it on” is a junk narrative that only applies to the Heat and LeBron. You are what you play like, even early in the season. Bl

By the way, it’s 20% through the season so… at what point are we supposed to care about winning?

You would think that you’d want to build on what you did last season but instead, who cares about the first 2 months of the season…. This attitude is exactly why we aren’t and won’t be a contender because this attitude is top down

[toooskies]

7 man rotation, for the win lololol against a team on a 16 game losing streak on December 2nd, for a single digit win. Heck yeah JB, run them guys into the ground so come April they have nothing left in the tank. Then he can passive aggressively say their conditioning should be better instead of taking an ounce of accountability for his terrible coaching.

The relentless pressure on the team to win now is the literal problem. We should not care about wins and losses in December to any significant degree. Especially when injury has played such a big role in our record.

This attitude is just mind blowing to me.

What was this season supposed to be to people? Should we just be happy with mediocre? I guess according to this.

The idea that teams just “turn it on” is a junk narrative that only applies to the Heat and LeBron. You are what you play like, even early in the season.

By the way, it’s 20% through the season so… at what point are we supposed to care about winning?

You would think that you’d want to build on what you did last season but instead, who cares about the first 2 months of the season…. This attitude is exactly why we aren’t and won’t be a contender because this attitude is top down

The measuring stick for this season is what we do in the playoffs. We are literally six months removed from the Heat making the Finals after a mediocre regular season. If we were racking up more bad losses I'd be more concerned, but we have one or two truly bad losses all season. That's weighted against wins over Denver and Philly, two really good if not great wins.

If you can't give the coach the leeway to fail at a few things in the regular season you forbid him from running strategies for the playoffs before you get there. Strategies don't just magically "work", young teams especially need to run them at game speed. If we don't feed Mobley the ball because he's not a great initiator now and we can't sacrifice wins for him now to get better, he'll never get the game reps to actually be good at it.

JBB coaching for his job prevents him from doing anything but trying to win the game in front of him.

[jbk1234]

7 man rotation, for the win lololol against a team on a 16 game losing streak on December 2nd, for a single digit win. Heck yeah JB, run them guys into the ground so come April they have nothing left in the tank. Then he can passive aggressively say their conditioning should be better instead of taking an ounce of accountability for his terrible coaching.

The relentless pressure on the team to win now is the literal problem. We should not care about wins and losses in December to any significant degree. Especially when injury has played such a big role in our record.

This attitude is just mind blowing to me.

What was this season supposed to be to people? Should we just be happy with mediocre? I guess according to this.

The idea that teams just “turn it on” is a junk narrative that only applies to the Heat and LeBron. You are what you play like, even early in the season. Bl

By the way, it’s 20% through the season so… at what point are we supposed to care about winning?

You would think that you’d want to build on what you did last season but instead, who cares about the first 2 months of the season…. This attitude is exactly why we aren’t and won’t be a contender because this attitude is top down

The No. 1 goal has to be getting our half court offense functioning well, against aggressive, physical defenses, prior to the deadline. If that happens, everything else will take care of itself. Obviously, you need to not run guys into the ground while getting there, but if we're going to be fair to JBB, injuries have limited his options.

Roster construction, while better after signing Strus and Niang, still includes 3 guys who can't be relied upon due to health in Rubio, Wade, and Ty Jerome, and Damion Jones, who cant be relied upon due to intense suckage. That's almost a third of the roster that's unusable, and a full third if you include I. Mobley, which I do..

While TT has been a pleasant surprise, and Niang has been able eat minutes, I suspect most GMs would want at least one more usable big off the bench (which should be Wade's role if he wasn't cementing himself as a rich man's Windler). Also, our SF rotation is filled with guys whose best position is SG, e.g. Strus, Okoro, and LeVert (again, Wade being out hurts here).

We have our five starters with TT, Niang, LeVert, Okoro, and possibly CPJ as, at least IMO, viable bench options. So with all five starters healthy, JBB is starting with 10 viable players, but if two of those 10 guys are out, he's down to 8 That includes CPJ, who if we're being honest, constitutes 99% of the short rotation debate.

The reality is that the Cavs are on the clock with Mitchell and Okoro and spacing is still a pretty big issue when it comes to bench players. Niang and (sometimes) LeVert help fill that role. TT, Okoro, and CPJ don't. Giving CPJ regular minutes could very well cost Okoro the same. Letting CPJ run the offense in the second unit could anger Mitchell. We've got plenty of time to figure out how to incorporate CPJ, but we may be reaching a decision point on Okoro and Mitchell.

[JujitsuFlip]

JBB coaching for his job prevents him from doing anything but trying to win the game in front of him.

He's been doing this for going on his 5th season now...

[jbk1234]

JBB coaching for his job prevents him from doing anything but trying to win the game in front of him.

He's been doing this for going on his 5th season now...

I mean if you want him to play CPJ, Merrill, Damien Jones, and Emoni Bates more, say that, but no one should pretend those players are a lock to provide quality minutes.

[JujitsuFlip]

JBB coaching for his job prevents him from doing anything but trying to win the game in front of him.

He's been doing this for going on his 5th season now...

I mean if you want him to play CPJ, Merrill, Damien Jones, and Emoni Bates more, say that, but no one should pretend those players are a lock to provide quality minutes.

I just want the guy to improve as a coach or step down.

We've been seeing tight regular season rotations since February 2020 from JB, let's switch it up, everyone else in the league is.

[jasonxxx102]

The relentless pressure on the team to win now is the literal problem. We should not care about wins and losses in December to any significant degree. Especially when injury has played such a big role in our record.

This attitude is just mind blowing to me.

What was this season supposed to be to people? Should we just be happy with mediocre? I guess according to this.

The idea that teams just “turn it on” is a junk narrative that only applies to the Heat and LeBron. You are what you play like, even early in the season. Bl

By the way, it’s 20% through the season so… at what point are we supposed to care about winning?

You would think that you’d want to build on what you did last season but instead, who cares about the first 2 months of the season…. This attitude is exactly why we aren’t and won’t be a contender because this attitude is top down

The No. 1 goal has to be getting our half court offense functioning well, against aggressive, physical defenses, prior to the deadline. If that happens, everything else will take care of itself. Obviously, you need to not run guys into the ground while getting there, but if we're going to be fair to JBB, injuries have limited his options.

Roster construction, while better after signing Strus and Niang, still includes 3 guys who can't be relied upon due to health in Rubio, Wade, and Ty Jerome, and Damion Jones, who cant be relied upon due to intense suckage. That's almost a third of the roster that's unusable, and a full third if you include I. Mobley, which I do..

While TT has been a pleasant surprise, and Niang has been able eat minutes, I suspect most GMs would want at least one more usable big off the bench (which should be Wade's role if he wasn't cementing himself as a rich man's Windler). Also, our SF rotation is filled with guys whose best position is SG, e.g. Strus, Okoro, and LeVert (again, Wade being out hurts here).

We have our five starters with TT, Niang, LeVert, Okoro, and possibly CPJ as, at least IMO, viable bench options. So with all five starters healthy, JBB is starting with 10 viable players, but if two of those 10 guys are out, he's down to 8 That includes CPJ, who if we're being honest, constitutes 99% of the short rotation debate.

The reality is that the Cavs are on the clock with Mitchell and Okoro and spacing is still a pretty big issue when it comes to bench players. Niang and (sometimes) LeVert help fill that role. TT, Okoro, and CPJ don't. Giving CPJ regular minutes could very well cost Okoro the same. Letting CPJ run the offense in the second unit could anger Mitchell. We've got plenty of time to figure out how to incorporate CPJ, but we may be reaching a decision point on Okoro and Mitchell.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying about the what if and maybe game. This is just called ignoring reality.

It didn’t happen last year, we’re 20%+ through the season and it’s not happening this year. Not only that but it’s been worse across the board this year. I don’t want to hear about injuries because that’s a poor excuse. It’s not going to happen.

This isn’t some office job where you can be mediocre forever and nobody cares. You’re paid millions of dollars to take a team and get them to play winning basketball. This isn’t it. You could make all these excuses in year 1 and year 2 but we’re in year 3 and it’s the worst that it’s been.

You can be a fan and that’s great but also be realistic. This team is not going to figure it out