Solve the Jays catching dilemma: Who gets traded (eventually)?

[dagger]

The Jays have a pleasant problem, three catchers who could be heavy utilization starters for most MLB teams. It's an acknowledged area of shortage in the bigs. Some organizations lack not only a quality starting catcher, but anyone close to the majors who could improve their situation. For the Jays, having three such talents is great, but once Danny Jansen returns in July, it is going to create a situation where three is a crowd.

The pros and cons of each of the three. None of them play other positions, all are right handed batters, so they are basically catcher/DHs. But consistently DH-ing one of them precludes DH-ing other position players who could use a light duty day. Ultimately, if, say Vlad gets to DH, two of the three Cs end up not playing unless needed later. And carrying three single position players seems sub-optimal.

So, who gets traded?

Danny Jansen - 27, Arb1. UFA in 2025. Good two way catcher with power, well respected, hard worker, smart pitch caller and framer by all accounts, but maybe a little fragile. He has seven homers in 19 games. As Fangraphs summarizes, "He's at least a solid everyday catcher, perhaps a little bit more." If he's traded, it places the onus on a 22 year old and 23 year old to do all the catching.

Alejandro Kirk – 23, pre-arb. Much has been said and written about him. Right now, it would be hard for the team to trade him for full value. Are there teams who would say that what he is doing is sustainable? Are they ready to give the Jays proper compensation for an everyday all-star or well above average performer, which he might well be, but may need more time to definitively establish?

Gabriel Moreno - 22. pre-arb. Looks like the real deal. Can't see the Jays trading him. But he has aspects of his game behind the plate that apparently need refining, and it does him no justice to sit on the bench and not get into games. He needs regular work, which he can get if one of the other catchers is traded, or going back to Buffalo.

The Jays could keep all three on the 26 man roster, but also have obvious weaknesses elsewhere in the lineup that could be addressed by trading a catcher, either solo or in a package. Another controllable pitcher? A good left-handed bat with some control?

So who stays, who goes, and roughly when (soon, trade deadline, next offseason?_

[vaff87]

Obviously, Jansen. Kirk might be the best catcher in baseball, he leads all catchers in fWAR. And the Jays aren’t going to trade Moreno, who might be even better than Kirk.

Also, Danny Jansen is in the bottom 1% in terms of framing this season. Kirk is having a very good season defensively, but Moreno is likely already the best defensive catcher out of the three.

[Parataxis]

Jansen would be the one to move if we're just looking to clear up the log-jam, and want to improve our BP or add some prospects to the farm.

Kirk is moveable, but it had better be for a ridiculous deal. Like, Shohei decides he's sick of the Angels type deal.

[bluerap23]

Don’t want to rush into a bad trade. I have no problem with having one of them rotating through the DH. Aside from Springer I see no reason why other position players need rest considering how young they are. If Cal Ripken could play every day at SS no reason why Vlad can’t play 1B every day.

[linery88]

I,d keep them all for a time,and play it by ear.Kirk may be giving both other catchers some valueable hitting tips...who knows.
If not,they should be picking his brain.

[DelAbbot]

How is this a dilemma?

Kirk is on-pace for 7-8 fWAR season as a CATHCER - that is MVP Joe Mauer - and at min salary. You don't trade Kirk when you are in win-now mode.

Moreno is going to be the next Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez. You don't trade that high potential prospect at a premium position.

Jansen is a career 0.213 hitter with sub 0.300 obp, with some pop. That's basically John Buck. Trade him for whatever you can get.

[DelAbbot]

Such a dilemma:

Danny Jansen after today: 197 / 266 / 426

that 266 is OBP.

[Raps in 4]

Jansen is the worst player from the 3, so ideally him. But he also has the least value.

If a sweet trade opportunity (e.g. young superstar with years of control left) comes along that requires us to trade Kirk or Moreno, I'd do it.

[bluerap23]

IMHO Moreno is currently most likely to be traded. Kirk is too damn good at the MLB level to not be the #1. Moreno looks like the superior defender but i don’t see him having the same offensive potential as Kirk, just doesn’t have the power.

Jansen is best suited to be the backup (Moreno will be a starter). And Jansen is a pretty good backup to boot. Most teams have defence only backups. Jansen is in a slump but prior to his injury he was having an excellent season.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Moreno is probably going to be the best of the 3 if we are gauging overall potential and expectation

Kirk has been definitely the best unrealized potential based of our expectations of him and performing big time in the Majors is a huge plus.

Janssen, he has some bounced around the IL and team this year so it’s hard to gauge his best overall potential but he’s probably the worst of the 3. Probably trade him this off-season.


I’m all for seeing if Moreno can play 1st or 3rd or DH (as well as catcher) in the near future. His bat is going to be great for the team next year. Kirk and Moreno would be a great catching tandem.

[Lateral Quicks]

Jansen has to be the the odd man out. Kirk is a borderline elite hitter at the MLB level already, and is under team control another 4 years after this one. Moreno hasn't shown much power yet, but he's hit over .300 throughout his minor league career, including in Buffalo this year. And he figures to be the best defender of the three by a good margin.

Jansen is approaching 1,000 MLB PAs. He is what he is at this point - a bad hitter with solid defense. Those kind of catchers are a dime a dozen in the bigs. We don't want to be paying him multiple millions per year to fill that role, especially when the likes of Guerrero and Hernandez are in line for big raises. Jansen has had some incredible hot streaks that make you dream on his potential, but the overall numbers don't lie.

[JTT]

Jansen has to be the the odd man out. Kirk is a borderline elite hitter at the MLB level already, and is under team control another 4 years after this one. Moreno hasn't shown much power yet, but he's hit over .300 throughout his minor league career, including in Buffalo this year. And he figures to be the best defender of the three by a good margin.

Jansen is approaching 1,000 MLB PAs. He is what he is at this point - a bad hitter with solid defense. Those kind of catchers are a dime a dozen in the bigs. We don't want to be paying him multiple millions per year to fill that role, especially when the likes of Guerrero and Hernandez are in line for big raises. Jansen has had some incredible hot streaks that make you dream on his potential, but the overall numbers don't lie.

It’s a question of value. Is filling the back up catcher/dh role with a Ferrari the best use of those resources? Or is obtaining a controllable equally valued starting pitcher a better use? Kirk seems to have cemented his position but if Moreno could bring back a young and controllable starter then I think Jansen is a perfect role player.

[Lateral Quicks]

Jansen has to be the the odd man out. Kirk is a borderline elite hitter at the MLB level already, and is under team control another 4 years after this one. Moreno hasn't shown much power yet, but he's hit over .300 throughout his minor league career, including in Buffalo this year. And he figures to be the best defender of the three by a good margin.

Jansen is approaching 1,000 MLB PAs. He is what he is at this point - a bad hitter with solid defense. Those kind of catchers are a dime a dozen in the bigs. We don't want to be paying him multiple millions per year to fill that role, especially when the likes of Guerrero and Hernandez are in line for big raises. Jansen has had some incredible hot streaks that make you dream on his potential, but the overall numbers don't lie.

It’s a question of value. Is filling the back up catcher/dh role with a Ferrari the best use of those resources? Or is obtaining a controllable equally valued starting pitcher a better use? Kirk seems to have cemented his position but if Moreno could bring back a young and controllable starter then I think Jansen is a perfect role player.

Defense matters most at catcher, therefore Moreno should stay. That he may be capable of hitting .300 in the bigs is a nice - though huge - bonus. Kirk has enough bat that he can play DH.

[JTT]

With others rotating through there’s only 1/2 dh position available. That makes two 3/4 time players. I’m also very sceptical of the framing metrics that show Jansen so poorly. He’s been a very good defensive catcher.

Saying that,I agree with much of what you’re saying. I would need a ton of value (hello Marlins) to trade Moreno

[Parataxis]

Without talking return, it really isn't a conversation that we can have.

Are we getting a Ohtani/Ramirez type piece back? You move whichever they want.

Are we getting some BP help back, or prospect depth? Goodbye Jansen. But none of them are unmovable for the right return.

[Asianiac_24]

IMO ideally we should be moving either Moreno or Kirk to get another big core piece on the team (ie. Soto, Ohtani, etc). Using Moreno or Kirk as backup catcher is a waste of resource IMO.

[Schad]

Ohtani isn't a core piece. Ohtani is a free agent after next season.

Kirk isn't a full-time catcher. He's a DH that ideally should be catching a couple times a week. Which is to say: he's the perfect partner with a guy like Moreno, who has the potential to be an elite catcher.

[Lateral Quicks]

I think the ideal situation is that Moreno can play another position when Kirk starts at C. That's takes them from play 3/4 of the time to maybe 4/5th, which is decent for a catcher.

But I agree, if you're getting a stud back, then no one is off limits. But the price is definitely high for Moreno or Kirk.

[dagger]

Moreno was 4-4 today, all singles. While the power doesn’t show often, a potential .300 hitter is something - especially one with a cannon for an arm playing a premium position. The money situation also enters into this, as Jansen progresses through arbitration, he will cost more than Kirk or Moreno. It’s a plus to have a quality starter or two at catcher at a $ discount so money can be spent elsewhere.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM Forums

[DelAbbot]

Jansen has to be the the odd man out. Kirk is a borderline elite hitter at the MLB level already, and is under team control another 4 years after this one. Moreno hasn't shown much power yet, but he's hit over .300 throughout his minor league career, including in Buffalo this year. And he figures to be the best defender of the three by a good margin.

Jansen is approaching 1,000 MLB PAs. He is what he is at this point - a bad hitter with solid defense. Those kind of catchers are a dime a dozen in the bigs. We don't want to be paying him multiple millions per year to fill that role, especially when the likes of Guerrero and Hernandez are in line for big raises. Jansen has had some incredible hot streaks that make you dream on his potential, but the overall numbers don't lie.

It’s a question of value. Is filling the back up catcher/dh role with a Ferrari the best use of those resources? Or is obtaining a controllable equally valued starting pitcher a better use? Kirk seems to have cemented his position but if Moreno could bring back a young and controllable starter then I think Jansen is a perfect role player.

Trading Moreno for a controllable young starter? No way. How often do you see a top 5 catcher prsopect on the BA top 100? Premium catcher prospects are so rare. You dont trade that for just "controllable" young starter unless your name is Atkins