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Randle McMurphy wrote:

C Court wrote:Why can't we just look at this as a win both ways?

Varsho - .246 avg, 6 HR, 13 RBI, .316 OBP, .881 OPS + great defence

Gurriel Jr - .284 avg, 5 HR, 21 RBI, .341 OBP, .824 OPS

Moreno - .250 avg, 0 HR, 11 RBI, .366 OBP, .716 OPS + just 22 y/o

We're talking about three guys who are all performing well so far in 2024.

The Jays could have signed Lourdes if they wanted to this offseason, so I don't know why he (or his latest hot streak) would be included in any evaluation of it.

Bringing up the no-hit defensive specialist Moreno is fair game though.

Talking about no-hit catchers, that label should apply to Kirk right now with an OPS of .465, and BA of .172. Just absolutely atrocious, and nowhere near a Top 5 Catcher like you said he was.

He is also stuck with 0 homers like Moreno, and had only one more Homer than Moreno last year (while Moreno played 15 fewer games due to injury). So not really a big Power Disparity between the two of them, since Kirk fell off since the second half of 2022.

Mehar wrote:

Randle McMurphy wrote:

C Court wrote:Why can't we just look at this as a win both ways?

Varsho - .246 avg, 6 HR, 13 RBI, .316 OBP, .881 OPS + great defence

Gurriel Jr - .284 avg, 5 HR, 21 RBI, .341 OBP, .824 OPS

Moreno - .250 avg, 0 HR, 11 RBI, .366 OBP, .716 OPS + just 22 y/o

We're talking about three guys who are all performing well so far in 2024.

The Jays could have signed Lourdes if they wanted to this offseason, so I don't know why he (or his latest hot streak) would be included in any evaluation of it.

Bringing up the no-hit defensive specialist Moreno is fair game though.

Talking about no-hit catchers, that label should apply to Kirk right now with an OPS of .465, and BA of .172. Just absolutely atrocious, and nowhere near a Top 5 Catcher like you said he was.

He is also stuck with 0 homers like Moreno, and had only one more Homer than Moreno last year (while Moreno played 15 fewer games due to injury). So not really a big Power Disparity between the two of them, since Kirk fell off since the second half of 2022.

I said his projections had him as a top 5-10 catcher coming into this season. They still do, regardless of his current slump.

Fortunately for the Jays, they also have a second catcher who also happens to be a better option than Moreno who can take the lion's share of the ABs right now.

Randle McMurphy wrote:

Mehar wrote:

Randle McMurphy wrote:The Jays could have signed Lourdes if they wanted to this offseason, so I don't know why he (or his latest hot streak) would be included in any evaluation of it.

Bringing up the no-hit defensive specialist Moreno is fair game though.

Talking about no-hit catchers, that label should apply to Kirk right now with an OPS of .465, and BA of .172. Just absolutely atrocious, and nowhere near a Top 5 Catcher like you said he was.

He is also stuck with 0 homers like Moreno, and had only one more Homer than Moreno last year (while Moreno played 15 fewer games due to injury). So not really a big Power Disparity between the two of them, since Kirk fell off since the second half of 2022.

I said his projections had him as a top 5-10 catcher coming into this season. They still do, regardless of his current slump.

Fortunately for the Jays, they also have a second catcher who also happens to be a better option than Moreno who can take the lion's share of the ABs right now.

Unfortunately the second catcher is a free agent after this year, and is injury prone while Moreno has 6 years of team control left (including this year). Fair enough. It is still April and Kirk cannot continue to be this bad.

That is why one terrific week from Varsho should not get anyone excited, since he had two terrific hitting weeks in April 2023 and then struggled mightily afterwards; eventually ending the year with a terrible .220 BA with an OPS of .674. Let's see how things unfold in the months ahead with him hitting wise, since it is a new year for Varsho and he made some adjustments. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now, and hope he can prove critics like me wrong.

even if varsho tapers off from his current form he will still end up being a 4 fWAR player on the basis of his S Tier defense. he also has 6 jacks in april, which moreno will be hard-pressed to match over the next two seasons combined, probably. light-hitting, defense-first catchers are a dime a dozen in this league.

s e n s i wrote:even if varsho tapers off from his current form he will still end up being a 4 fWAR player on the basis of his S Tier defense. he also has 6 jacks in april, which moreno will be hard-pressed to match over the next two seasons combined, probably. light-hitting, defense-first catchers are a dime a dozen in this league.

We even currently have one lol! ****.

5%

s e n s i wrote:

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5%

So is a 5% catch probability effectively the same as saying that the hit had a XBA of .950? Or are they judged by different metrics and not directly translatable?

what are we ever going to do after trading the next coming of buster posey to the dbacks

Kirk hits for one day all season and it is enough to surpass Moreno as a hitter.

but we are upset because we traded the cute hitting gabby moreno for the best defensive outfielder in baseball who also is raking atm

It is meaningless to focus on 2022 Stats, since Moreno was still a Jays prospect. Let's see how this year unfolds, because last year was underwhelming for both Kirk and Varsho (offensively).

Kirk had one excellent game to raise his batting average to a terrible .206 and OPS .567 , but has been trash offensively the first month. Varsho came back down to earth the past few games, when everyone got excited about his offensive outburst, and is now 1 for his last 14. Batting Average down to .233. I am willing to wait and see how both of these guys perform in the coming weeks, before I criticize them further.

0.4 more WAR to go along with the best catcher tandem currently in baseball. Remind me again why this trade was supposed to be bad?

Randle McMurphy wrote:

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0.4 more WAR to go along with the best catcher tandem currently in baseball. Remind me again why this trade was supposed to be bad?

Why are you not comparing the numbers of Moreno vs. Kirk? You mentioned previously last year and even last month that Kirk was a much better catcher; and we should be comparing the numbers of Moreno vs. Kirk instead, along with also comparing Gurriel vs. Varsho.

When Varsho sucked offensively last year, you mentioned the same thing when I pointed out that Moreno had a higher WAR than him. So, you compare the numbers of Varsho vs. Moreno when it might suit you for a particular moment, when Moreno has struggled for a couple of weeks. Due to the fact Kirk has sucked for 4 weeks (except his last game), you do not want to compare Kirk vs. Moreno.

a couple of weeks lol

moreno's had enough time in the MLB and has yet to show he can hit the ball out of the infield with any consistency. at least kirk and varsho have proven to be able to do that in their careers.

s e n s i wrote:a couple of weeks lol

moreno's had enough time in the MLB and has yet to show he can hit the ball out of the infield with any consistency. at least kirk and varsho have proven to be able to do that in their careers.

I am talking about a 162 Game Regular Season in 2023 Sensi or Randle (no need to have two different accounts, just stick with 1 on here). Gurriel had a solid year overall last year (All-Star Appearance), including defensively in LF in terms of Defensive Runs Saved and other metrics. Moreno hit .284 last year as a Rookie which was above average, and had a higher OPS, On Base, and BA over both Kirk and Varsho. Moreno is a Second year player, while Kirk has been terrible since the second half of 2022; and Varsho sucked offensively last year in his 4th year.

Varsho has been a terrible hitter for his career. The numbers do not lie. Let's see what 2024 brings. Except for his one hot week hitting two weeks ago, Varsho is back in his mini slump. Are we comparing Gurriel vs. Varsho, and Kirk vs. Moreno like you wanted to do previously? How about Kirk's struggles? Eliminate his last game, and he had been more trash than Moreno this month.

You did not want to judge this trade after last year, when both Kirk and Varsho sucked offensively. You want to judge it now after one month in the second year, after Varsho had his hot week two weeks ago, and Moreno struggled to start this year. So you want to pretend that a 162 Game Season last year basically did not matter, when both Gurriel and Moreno were instrumental in playing a big part in a trip to the World Series for Arizona? You are laughable like your hero Mike Shillner.

They aren't the same person, stop the stupid accusations of multiple accounts because you're mad people don't agree with you.


Also, from what I have read they have both been judging the trade from day 1 as a win for the Blue Jays, but have argued that it could end badly if Moreno improves a lot.

Mehar wrote:

s e n s i wrote:a couple of weeks lol

moreno's had enough time in the MLB and has yet to show he can hit the ball out of the infield with any consistency. at least kirk and varsho have proven to be able to do that in their careers.

I am talking about a 162 Game Regular Season in 2023 Sensi or Randle (no need to have two different accounts, just stick with 1 on here). Gurriel had a solid year overall last year (All-Star Appearance), including defensively in LF in terms of Defensive Runs Saved and other metrics. Moreno hit .284 last year as a Rookie which was above average, and had a higher OPS, On Base, and BA over both Kirk and Varsho. Moreno is a Second year player, while Kirk has been terrible since the second half of 2022; and Varsho sucked offensively last year in his 4th year.

Varsho has been a terrible hitter for his career. The numbers do not lie. Let's see what 2024 brings. Except for his one hot week hitting two weeks ago, Varsho is back in his mini slump. Are we comparing Gurriel vs. Varsho, and Kirk vs. Moreno like you wanted to do previously? How about Kirk's struggles? Eliminate his last game, and he had been more trash than Moreno this month.

You did not want to judge this trade after last year, when both Kirk and Varsho sucked offensively. You want to judge it now after one month in the second year, after Varsho had his hot week two weeks ago, and Moreno struggled to start this year. So you want to pretend that a 162 Game Season last year basically did not matter, when both Gurriel and Moreno were instrumental in playing a big part in a trip to the World Series for Arizona? You are laughable like your hero Mike Shillner.

PSA: Gabriel Moreno has not proven anything yet. I don't think you actually understand this.

When you say moronic things like: "Varsho has been a terrible hitter for his career", do you not understand that people have the internet?

In 2022 Varsho posted a 107 wRC+ in 151 games played. This is a better offensive season than anything that Moreno has done so far as a professional. Yes, this was a better offensive performance than Moreno's 103 wRC+ in 111 games last year, which is actually Moreno's only real data-point (no, his ~70 plate appearances sample as a Blue Jays does not count for anything). So what the hell are you even talking about? If Varsho has been "terrible", just what exactly do you think Moreno is? Mike Trout?

I've never seen someone try to beat their chest over 103 wRC+ last season, and 90 wRC+ this season with ZERO power. This is your god?

You better start praying that Moreno learns to hit the ball out of the infield sometime soon. He has a .108 ISO in his MLB career (164 games). That is....not good.