Michael Vick

[J.Kim]

That's not the "Definitive" video, the definitive video would have been in excess of 20 minutes. That was ONE GAME. And it was just a sports reporter analyzing THAT GAME, it wasn't a seasonal statistical analysis of Atlanta WRs or such.

BTW since you didn't seem to get it the first time, I will repost what I said earlier..
At some point, your receivers HAVE to make plays. That wasn't even a tough play to make. When your receivers can't catch anything that's not in their chest (and even THAT'S questionable with our receivers), that's the DEFINITION of having horrible receivers.

You have to look at it from our perspective. If it was YOUR team's receivers dropping those passes, you would COMPLETELY blame the receiver, no question. We even have a Saints fan defending Vick season last year, and Saints fans give us more hell than anyone.

I didn't get it the first time? I told you. Your receivers are bad, I know, I've been repeating it for the past 2 pages.
What you seem to be completely skimming over is that Vick doesn't help things for the Receivers either.
All you're saying is that Vick "was a better passer than he was the previous season". How is he a better passer? You're expecting me to understand how he was a better passer, despite not listing any reason as to why he became a better passer?

And as for "if it was MY team dropping those passes". They have been. Titans have had quite a few passes dropped in the past season. But I don't solely put the blame on the Receivers either. Vince Young could have very well made the WRs lives easier, by not under/over throwing to his receivers.

Again, missing the point. Where did I say he was a very accurate passer? I said he was SIGNIFICANTLY MORE ACCURATE this PAST SEASON than in prior years. Why don't you actually read what I say instead of reading between the lines.

Good. So we're agreed upon that Vick is not an accurate passer?

That's because Finneran is the best receiver Vick has ever played with. And since a 60% rate is so vital to you, why don't Chad Johnson and Torry Holt have 60% catch rates, they have probowl QBs don't they?

Becuase Chad Johnson had an off-year, considering his standards, and most people know that. The same goes for Torry Holt, who was battling a Knee injury towards the end of the season

It's not surprising, but you've missed the point again. I'm not talking about the previous 6 seasons, I'm talking about LAST YEAR, and he was more accurate last year. If that doesn't register with you, it's because you didn't see the games, and it's already been acknowledged that you didn't.

I know you're talking about last year. What I'm pointing out is that the previous seasons show trends. A Trend that Vick is a below average passing quarterback.

Sure he has the running game to support it, but he's still a below average passing Quarterback.

Actually I have, go back and check before you make such an outrageous claim. I have said that he does need to improve. What's there to say of his throwing motion? It's not bad, and certainly not a flaw. His stance is just that, he doesn't have one because DE's are always in his face.

Go back and check. You havn't given me a shred of reasoning as to how Vick improved from the previous season. All you've said is, "He's become more accurate this season, despite the WRs", and you havn't provided one reason why, or even how. You're telling me to just accept these facts without reason or method.

Actually he didn't. Vick had more passing TD's and less interceptions. The difference in yards has to do with the amount of Attempts Vick had, and also our short WCO passing game. It's no coincidence that Vick threw for 2936 yards on only 30 more attempts in his 2nd year.

2006
J.P. Losman - 21.2 DPAR, -.28% DVOA
Michael Vick - -6.3 DPAR, -16.6% DVOA

On a play-by-play contribution basis, and the overall value basis as a Passer, J.P. Losman far outplayed Michael Vick.

Again, you completely missed the point. Leinart and Warner have 2 PROBOWL RECEIVERS!! As well as a good receiving HB in James.

Hey, you only said that Arizona's O-line was worse than Atlanta's. And nothing about the HB and WRs

Actually there weren't. Vick was top 10 in passing TD's, ran for over 1000, and accounted for over 3500 yards last year. That certainly factors in. Your only argument is completion%, which would be much higher without our liabilities at WR and OL. Vick was an overall top 10-12 QB last season.

With Vick, passing is only part of his game. That's like saying Al Jefferson is better than Kobe Bryant because Al posts up more.

I should've clarified that.
As a Passer, there were 36 better than Vick. FO has his DPAR and DVOA at 36th, and they both account for everything in the game (O-Line, WR, RB, playcalling and etc.)

And that Al Jefferson-Kobe Bryant analogy holds because what I'm saying is that Vick is deficient in one aspect of his game (Passing).
But where it stops is that Unlike Al Jefferson vs. Kobe Bryant, Vick plays that position, in which the skill he is deficient in, is critical to the success of his team.

Now, you seem to think that I'm completely discrediting is Rushing totals.

Let me make this clear. I'm not discrediting his rushing totals. I've mentioned before. I think he's the greatest Rushing Quarterback since Randall Cunningham. He's a phenomenal scrambling QB, and the Offence that Petrino is building should build around that.
But what I'm discussing here is that Michael Vick, is not up to standard in terms of his passing abilities. Now, can he succeed in the league with a lack of accuracy, that is generally found in the top-tier QBs? Yes definitely. But what happens if the DEs can contain him on the edge? What happens if he loses a step due to injury or age in the next season or two?

Now, as a Titans fan, I've gone through this with watching Steve McNair throughout his career. At first, he was very raw in his passing abilities, but he could run over just about anyone in the league. As he got older, however, he realized that he could not continue to run in the league, and hence worked on his passing abilities, and by around his 6th/7th season in the league, he improved tremendously, and evolved as a pocket passer, with the ability to run.

Now Vick, is around the same time frame, around just about the same experience as McNair had when he evolved into a better passer. If his accuracy woes (relatively speaking of course) continue, you have to start wondering, how long is Vick going to hold this up? He can't continue outrunning other players.

[High 5]

I am gonna be honest. I haven't seen a single Falcons game in two years.

As if it wasn't completely obvious...But don't feel bad, judging from the posts I've seen on these forums, you aren't alone. Not by a long shot.

[NDaATL]

What you seem to be completely skimming over is that Vick doesn't help things for the Receivers either.

Actually he does. But you haven't seen the games so you judge by statistics.

All you're saying is that Vick "was a better passer than he was the previous season". How is he a better passer? You're expecting me to understand how he was a better passer, despite not listing any reason as to why he became a better passer?

If he's better than previous seasons's, doesn't that mean he's a better passer? I have already listed reasons, what else is there to say? He placed balls better than in years past, but his stats didn't improve because of poor receiver play, and even Crumpler at times.

Good. So we're agreed upon that Vick is not an accurate passer?

No, he actually was average for QBs this season. But his stats aren't indicitive of his performance solely because of the reasons I've stated. You keep resorting to stats, when you have Oline/receiver problems your stats are going to suffer, it's because of the play of his teammates that his PASSING statistics suffered so heavily.

Becuase Chad Johnson had an off-year, considering his standards, and most people know that.

Really? He only caught for 60 less yards last year than the year before. What about Moss, TO, Burress.. TO certainly had drops this year, but he also didn't exactly have a bad year.

I know you're talking about last year. What I'm pointing out is that the previous seasons show trends. A Trend that Vick is a below average passing quarterback.

Sure he has the running game to support it, but he's still a below average passing Quarterback.

Again, you are relying solely on statistics to base your opinion. His stats (ESPECIALLY completion %) would have been much higher last year if he wasn't always running for his life, or having receivers wipe butter off their fingers.

Go back and check. You havn't given me a shred of reasoning as to how Vick improved from the previous season. All you've said is, "He's become more accurate this season, despite the WRs", and you havn't provided one reason why, or even how. You're telling me to just accept these facts without reason or method.

What do you mean why? I mean, as I say it, that he was more accurate and his passes were placed better. But you haven't seen the games so you wouldn't know.

2006
J.P. Losman - 21.2 DPAR, -.28% DVOA
Michael Vick - -6.3 DPAR, -16.6% DVOA

On a play-by-play contribution basis, and the overall value basis as a Passer, J.P. Losman far outplayed Michael Vick.

This is irrelevant. Vick was the better overall QB and that's what matters. When you make this argument, you are completely taking the other side of Vick's game.

Hey, you only said that Arizona's O-line was worse than Atlanta's. And nothing about the HB and WRs

lmao, what have I been arguing this whole time?

I should've clarified that.
As a Passer, there were 36 better than Vick. FO has his DPAR and DVOA at 36th, and they both account for everything in the game (O-Line, WR, RB, playcalling and etc.)

And this is based SOLELY on statistics, not actual play. If we had even AVERAGE WR's or Oline, he would at LEAST be top 20.

Now, you seem to think that I'm completely discrediting is Rushing totals.

Let me make this clear. I'm not discrediting his rushing totals. I've mentioned before. I think he's the greatest Rushing Quarterback since Randall Cunningham.

Since you love statistics so much, technically Vick is the greatest rushing QB in the history of the NFL.

What happens if he loses a step due to injury or age in the next season or two?

This is a legit question. But like I say, if you saw the games, you would agree that he made great strides as a passer last season, and even became a *gasp* average passer, or VERY close to it. If he improves as much this season as he did last, I see no reason he can't improve.


But even Vick said this himself, I'll have to find the quote about him questioning Knapp's playcalling. He said something like "Why do you think I was a top 15 passer under a different system?" He was questioning the "No audibles, do all Greg Knapp offense." Because the coaches wouldn't call enough pass plays for him, he was only getting like 15 attempts a game. AND the only time they would call a pass play is when it would be a 3rd and long, when it was OBVIOUS we had to pass, making it MUCH easier for the defense to stop it. It's MUCH harder to pass when the D knows it's coming.

Guess what happened the next week? Vick lit up the Steelers defense for 4 TDs and got 30 attempts. What happened the next week? Vick threw for 300 yards and 3 TD's against a good pass defense in Cincinatti. Then our receivers came back down to earth.

When the QB AND TE publically call out the receivers at TWO DIFFERENT times in a season, something is SERIOUSLY wrong.

[J.Kim]

The rest of the Vick argument's I'm not going to bother. We keep going at each other in circles, with no resolution in site. So I'm going to propose that we agree to disagree with each other, and see what happens in the next season. (Go ahead, bring this thread back up next season if his pass percentage rises above 60%. I'll eat my words)

As for something that's not Vick related:

Really? He only caught for 60 less yards last year than the year before. What about Moss, TO, Burress.. TO certainly had drops this year, but he also didn't exactly have a bad year.

Feel free to correct me on this, but Johnson had quite a few games last season with pass drops, and while still having a fine season, it just wasn't up to previous "Ocho" standards.

2005: 36.8 DPAR, 19.3% DVOA, 63% Catch Rate
2006: 31.4 DPAR, 15.5% DVOA, 57% Catch Rate.

Moss is a shell of his former self. It seems like injuries have taken a toll on his body, as well as the fact that Oakland's QB's were horrific. He's not the same player he was 3 years ago, it seems.

Plaxico Burress had an off-season, due to the fact that Eli proved himself to be less than standard QB, and because of back injuries he was dealing with throughout the year.

T.O. didn't exactly have a bad year, but he's no where in the level he was playing at when he was with Donovan McNabb. And it doesn't help that he had Drew Bledsoe throwing to him for quite a part of the year.

[NDaATL]

The rest of the Vick argument's I'm not going to bother.

Glad to see I've won you over.

Feel free to correct me on this, but Johnson had quite a few games last season with pass drops, and while still having a fine season, it just wasn't up to previous "Ocho" standards.

2005: 36.8 DPAR, 19.3% DVOA, 63% Catch Rate
2006: 31.4 DPAR, 15.5% DVOA, 57% Catch Rate.

Well, 05 was a career year for Chad. Yardage wise, 06 was his 2nd best season, as well as YPC.

Moss is a shell of his former self. It seems like injuries have taken a toll on his body, as well as the fact that Oakland's QB's were horrific. He's not the same player he was 3 years ago, it seems.

Plaxico Burress had an off-season, due to the fact that Eli proved himself to be less than standard QB, and because of back injuries he was dealing with throughout the year.

T.O. didn't exactly have a bad year, but he's no where in the level he was playing at when he was with Donovan McNabb. And it doesn't help that he had Drew Bledsoe throwing to him for quite a part of the year.

Even though injuries probably took a toll, they are still years better than ours.

[J.Kim]

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Glad to see I've won you over.

As If.

I'll see you next year when the season's over

[NDaATL]

I'll see you next year when the season's over

I'll have your plate of crow ready.

[Elway=GOAT]

If by Clanging passes off of his recievers chest and hands then I agree.

How about the over/under inaccurate ducks?

[NO-KG-AI]

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How about the over/under inaccurate ducks?

If you mean Michael Jenkins ducking out, and short arming passes then I agree.

[Elway=GOAT]

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Thanks for proving my point. When is rushing for 1000 yards on almost 8 yards per carry hurting the team? I don't care if he's a QB or not, that's a TREMENDOUS help.

People just look at his passing and say he's horrible (which would be a lot better if our receivers didn't suck), as if the rushing doesn't matter.

Noone seemed to discredit Vince Young's rushing, or his performance in the championship game.

College is a much diffrent game than the pros. Things are faster, defenses are more complex and if you are just going to run around in this league...

there is 2 things that are going to happen-

1. Injuries, something Mike Vick has had plenty of experience with.

2. You dont advance far into the playoffs. The regular season is fine and dandy, but its pocket passers who own this league in the playoffs. The last "rushing QB" to win anything was Steve Young and he happened to be one of the most accurate passers in league history.

Another thing I have a problem with you Vick homers is, why cant Vick make his WR's better? Tom Brady, had great success with a much worse group of WR's and they went deep into the playoffs. Sometimes its not always about the WR dropping passes, as it is making the right reads, checking off, and throwing a nice accurate pass. All things after 5 years Mike Vick has still not learned to do.

[Elway=GOAT]

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If you mean Michael Jenkins ducking out, and short arming passes then I agree.

No im specifically talking about Vick being a terrible inaccurate QB. This guy makes Jake Plummer look decent, in terms of the passing game.

[NO-KG-AI]

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No im specifically talking about Vick being a terrible inaccurate QB. This guy makes Jake Plummer look decent, in terms of the passing game.

Whatever, I have no reason to take up for Vick, I'm not a fan in the least, but I know what I see (which is probably more than any other Non-Falcon fan) and I see receivers that completely drop easy passes, short arm others, or Vick having someone come straight through the middle of his line, and Vick get flushed out of the pocket, only to throw the ball away because his receivers had given up on their routes and he needed to get rid of it.

What happened this year when the O-line and WR's showed any type of consistency? Mike Vick had a tremendous stretch of games.

BTW, Brady's receivers were not as talented, but at least they could hang onto the ball when it was delivered, and Belichick players are mentally tough, and fundamentally sound. The offensive scheme also helps a lot, as it is made FOR Tom Brady.

Not to say he could be as great as Brady, but you get my point.

Who is the best receiver Vick has had? Brian Finneran? Alge Crumpler?

You guys are way off base, if anything is the problem it is decision making under intense pressure, not accurately placing a pass.

[NDaATL]

No im specifically talking about Vick being a terrible inaccurate QB. This guy makes Jake Plummer look decent, in terms of the passing game.

Two things:

1. Do not comment on this thread any more until 2, you actually watch a Falcons game from last season.

[Elway=GOAT]

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Two things:

1. Do not comment on this thread any more until 2, you actually watch a Falcons game from last season.

Well, before you comment again, why dont you take off your homer glasses off. I have NFL total access smart guy. I made a point to catch atleast 1 game from every team last year. I saw 4 of the Falcons games, last year. 1 against Arizona, 1 against the Giants, 1 against the Saints, 1 against the Cowboys.

Vick played phenominal in 1 game. That was against the Cowboys, the rest of the games I saw he was blah at best. He has not changed since his rookie year, his accuracy is still that of a rookie, his ability to break down a defense, is that of a rookie, his abaility to check off recivers, is that of a rookie.

I have said it before on these boards, more so than any position in sports, if a guy dosen't get it by his third year in the league, he never will. Vick still hasnt gotten it. What he going into his 6th year? I mean we can blame his WR core all we want. But at the end of the day, the WR is not going to make or break the QB, the QB is going to make or break the QB. The excuses Vick apologists come up with are just ignorant.

Everyone says, we dont know how good he can be, his recivers suck. He still has a better group of recivers than what the Chargers, and Patriots were working with last year. There QB's looked fine to me. Mcnabb has had comparable recivers throughout his career(save the superbowl season) and he even is a half decent passer. Infact he was worse than Vick in terms of accuracy coming out of college.

The diffrence is McNabb, has made big strides in the passing part of the game, because like McNair, Elway, and any other "rushing" QB they know in the end, the NFL isnt college and you will have to learn how to throw the damn football to have real success in this league.

[Elway=GOAT]

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Whatever, I have no reason to take up for Vick, I'm not a fan in the least, but I know what I see (which is probably more than any other Non-Falcon fan) and I see receivers that completely drop easy passes, short arm others, or Vick having someone come straight through the middle of his line, and Vick get flushed out of the pocket, only to throw the ball away because his receivers had given up on their routes and he needed to get rid of it.

What happened this year when the O-line and WR's showed any type of consistency? Mike Vick had a tremendous stretch of games.

BTW, Brady's receivers were not as talented, but at least they could hang onto the ball when it was delivered, and Belichick players are mentally tough, and fundamentally sound. The offensive scheme also helps a lot, as it is made FOR Tom Brady.

Not to say he could be as great as Brady, but you get my point.

Who is the best receiver Vick has had? Brian Finneran? Alge Crumpler?

You guys are way off base, if anything is the problem it is decision making under intense pressure, not accurately placing a pass.

Every QB except Peyton Manning has to deal with that...IE players coming up the middle. Its not like Vick is the only QB who gets pressured please. Like in my other post, Michael Vick is the most talented QB maybe ever. But he is about as smart as a box of rocks. He has a terrible football IQ.

Mcnabb has had a much worse group of recivers throughout his career, he has adjusted and made strides and has become a pretty decent passing QB.

BTW: No, Tom Bradys group of recivers, were not even close to being as good as what Vick was working with last year. They had castoffs of the chargers, Texans, Raiders and Eagles. We all know, what great WR cores those teams have the last few years.

[NDaATL]

Funny how your username is Elway=GOAT, yet Elway didn't have a 60% completion percentage until his 11th year.

I'll destroy your argument tomorrow.

[NDaATL]

if you are just going to run around in this league...

there is 2 things that are going to happen-

1. Injuries, something Mike Vick has had plenty of experience with.wr

Wrong.. Vick was a rookie and only played 8 games that year, and he didn't start. 2003 was the ONLY year that Vick has missed a significant amount of games. 2002, 2004, 2005 and 2006 he has played or exceeded 15 games.

2. You dont advance far into the playoffs. The regular season is fine and dandy, but its pocket passers who own this league in the playoffs. The last "rushing QB" to win anything was Steve Young and he happened to be one of the most accurate passers in league history.

Really? We didn't go to the NFCCG 2 years ago? We weren't the first team in history to defeat Brett Favre at Lambeau Field in the playoffs when the temperature was below 10 degrees? Please..

Another thing I have a problem with you Vick homers is, why cant Vick make his WR's better? Tom Brady, had great success with a much worse group of WR's and they went deep into the playoffs.

You're right, we didn't go to the NFCCG with a horrible group of receivers either. Not to mention Brady has the better coach, OL and defense.

BTW, with the threat of rushing, Vick doesn't have to become Tom Brady as a passer. And for you to claim that Brady's receivers are worse instantly kills credibility.

Michael Vick is about as smart as a box of rocks. He has a terrible football IQ.

What a stereotypical, fallacious and irrational generalization. He's smart as a box of rocks? Because he hasn't been the most accurate passer he's dumb? I'm sorry Vick lit up your Broncoes with 18-24 for 252 yards passing and 115 yards rushing in 05.

He still has a better group of recivers than what the Chargers, and Patriots were working with last year.

The Chargers have the best O-Line in football, the best TE in football, and the best runningback by FAR in football. They also have a better coach. NE also has a great O-Line, the best coach, and receivers that can actually catch the ball.

I have NFL total access smart guy. I made a point to catch atleast 1 game from every team last year. I saw 4 of the Falcons games, last year. 1 against Arizona, 1 against the Giants, 1 against the Saints, 1 against the Cowboys.

Judging by your posts, you haven't seen a Falcons game in 2 years. I'll give you the Saints and Cowboy's games, since they were national. Stop making accusations in order to somehow "boost" your credibility. BTW we were destroying Arizona running the ball, there was no reason to start throwing it. And he was still 13/22 for 150 yards, and had 111 yards rushing, not bad at all.

This is what happened during the Saints game (WATCH THIS VIDEO) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4aUWrLAX3U ..

If our WR's are good enough, why were they called out twice (by Crumpler and Vick, at SEPARATE times mind you) in the season? Why was Jim Mora on his knees in disgust with that horrible drop Roddy White had?

Greg Knapp doesn't allow his QBs to audible.

About the first 6 games of the season, Vick was only getting about 15 attempts per game. We ONLY threw when it was a passing down, and the defense KNEW it was coming, it's MUCH harder to pass when the D knows it's coming, and will lead to lower percentages. What happened? Vick had an interview on "Inside the NFL" and they asked him about his passing, and he said he doesn't get the opportunities, Knapp always calls run plays. He then went on to say "I know I can pass, I just haven't been given the opportunity. Why do you think I was a top 15 passer under Reeves in my FIRST year starting?" Guess what happened the next week, he got 30 attempts and lit up the Steelers for 4 passing TD's. What happened the next week? He lit up a good Bengals pass defense for 300 yards passing and 3 TD's.


Since Elway=GOAT to you, and Vick's completion% is so important, why didn't Elway have 60% completions until his 11th year?

[NDaATL]

He was also top 10 in the league in passing TD's, despite having less attempts per game than probably any starting QB in the league, AND having more screw ups at WR than probably anyone in the league. He also played behind a small OL that was horrible at pass blocking. They aren't even great at run blocking, Vick is the reason we are always at the top of the league in rushing.

Vick accounted for over 3500 yards and 25 TD's last year, it's not a coincidence that there are "Vick apologists" as you would like to say. You do understand the meaning of that word, correct?

[Elway=GOAT]

He was also top 10 in the league in passing TD's, despite having less attempts per game than probably any starting QB in the league, AND having more screw ups at WR than probably anyone in the league. He also played behind a small OL that was horrible at pass blocking. They aren't even great at run blocking, Vick is the reason we are always at the top of the league in rushing.

Vick accounted for over 3500 yards and 25 TD's last year, it's not a coincidence that there are "Vick apologists" as you would like to say. You do understand the meaning of that word, correct?

Holy ****! 3500 yards and 25 td's! hes amazing!

He also had 13 picks and 9 fumbles! The year before last year he had more turnovers than touchdowns run or thrown! This guy truly is the messiah of the nfl and Atlanta fans should not be worried at all, you add in the fact that hes an injury waiting to happen and hes the total package!

Elway's completion percentage and his turnovers were bad because he gambled way too much early in games. Plain and simple, but he did enough at the end of games, to win games. Something Vick hasnt done, since his defense fell off to bail him out. Elway was also running out with worse offenses than Vick could ever dream off. Im talking Line, Running backs, and WR/TE. He still managed to put that team on his back and beat teams that were much better than the Broncos. They got crushed in the super bowl numeriouse times. But then again, those teams as a whole didnt have any business being in the playoffs.

But what does Elways flaws have anything to do with the horrendous play of Michael Vick? Are you trying to draw attention off of your Vick in this topic? I dont see the relevents of bringing Elway into this, who was by the way so far out of Vicks league its not even funny.

Mr. Kim already addressed this, but please dont try to use any kind of numbers, to justify the "greatness" of Vick because then we can use, better and more complex number(something you probably have a hard time understanding.)

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb.php

Hes a terrible passer period. There is no way to get around that. Like I said, his recievers may suck, but he dosent do anything to help them out. Like I have said before, he still does things rookie QB's do. Some already do better Leinart/Cutler for example. Checking off, being able to read a defense, and gets happy feet way to often, similar to what Peyton Manning would do(2 years ago) except Vick has the ability to run.

Hes a great runner, I have always said that. But he makes terrible passers like Jake Plummer and Vince Young look good with his -6.3 DPAR to there (Plummer 4.5 Young 7.7). If you are not going to win anything in this league, you are going to have to learn to pass the football efficently and effectivly if you cant learn that you wont win anything in the NFL period.

[treiz]

I don't think DPAR is a good way to measure Vick, since he's usually running for his life, or receivers drops the ball.