Will Amir crack our rotation this season?

bstein14 · Post #1 » by **bstein14** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:33 am

Amir has been getting some play lately, but its been in the 4th in garbage time.

Lots of people here had high hopes for Amir finally being able to play.

It is now his 3rd NBA season, and he just got his big contract.

Webber wasn't resigned, Nazr was traded... Amir is in theory our 4th big off the bench but we've gone with nothing but Dice, Sheed, and Max in the 1st half of games.

Do we still see Amir as being a rotation player this year? Will he start to get playing time in the 2nd quarter on a regular basis? [b]He honestly hasn't looked that great out there.

Overall I've been very happy with our young guys (Max, Afflalo, and Stuckey) getting playing time.... but Amir has been the exception.

Post #2 » by **ajaX82** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:34 am

No, he will not crack the rotation this season. It sucks, but its true

Post #3 » by **Cowology** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:43 am

Sure doesn't look like it, which is to bad. On the one hand he's not ready to earn rotation minutes yet, but on the other hand...how can he improve if he doesn't play? Tough situation for both him and the coach, especially with the way we're currently playing. I'd still like to see him get 5 min in the 2nd quarter. That will do him more good than 10 minutes of garbage time.

:sigh:

bstein14 · Post #4 » by **bstein14** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:50 am

Cowology wrote:Sure doesn't look like it, which is to bad. On the one hand he's not ready to earn rotation minutes yet, but on the other hand...how can he improve if he doesn't play? Tough situation for both him and the coach, especially with the way we're currently playing. I'd still like to see him get 5 min in the 2nd quarter. That will do him more good than 10 minutes of garbage time.

I completely agree with this. I know we can't expect him to beat out Sheed/Dice/Max for minutes, but as long as all 3 of them are healthy and not in foul trouble it doesn't look like Amir will be getting a chance.

Letting him play 5-6 minutes from the start of the 2nd quarter until we bring a starter back in to finish out the half isn't going to hurt the team THAT much.

I'd rather lose a few games, as said so many times before, and develop the bench.

nasty daddy · Post #5 » by **nasty daddy** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 10:00 am

Next year he will finally crack the rotation.

srt4b · Post #6 » by **srt4b** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 11:59 am

nasty daddy wrote:Next year he will finally crack the rotation.

On what team tho?

NCHeels2008 · Post #7 » by **NCHeels2008** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 1:56 pm

Its a long year if we (heaven forbid) have an injury to one of our 4/5 rotation he will all of a sudden be getting serious PT.

ElectricMayhem · Post #8 » by **ElectricMayhem** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 2:23 pm

Yeah, I don't see him in the rotation this year, but he will make a slow push on McDyess' (and to a lesser extent, Sheed's) minutes as he gets better and they get old. Will the push be enough to satisfy him? Only time will tell.

Liqourish · Post #9 » by **Liqourish** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 3:12 pm

NCHeels2008 wrote:Its a long year if we (heaven forbid) have an injury to one of our 4/5 rotation he will all of a sudden be getting serious PT.

QFT.... it could come back and bite us in the ass if it happens in the playoffs. These blowouts are games where Amir shuld et serious burn, especially agaisnt athletic young frontcourt... unless he learns some sets and defensive assignments, he will be our downfall when we need him.

Liqourish · Post #10 » by **Liqourish** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 3:34 pm

bstein14 wrote:Amir has been getting some play lately, but its been in the 4th in garbage time.

Lots of people here had high hopes for Amir finally being able to play.

It is now his 3rd NBA season, and he just got his big contract.

Webber wasn't resigned, Nazr was traded... Amir is in theory our 4th big off the bench but we've gone with nothing but Dice, Sheed, and Max in the 1st half of games.

Do we still see Amir as being a rotation player this year? Will he start to get playing time in the 2nd quarter on a regular basis? He honestly hasn't looked that great out there.

Overall I've been very happy with our young guys (Max, Afflalo, and Stuckey) getting playing time.... but Amir has been the exception.

Umm, what exactly has shown you that he hasn't looked good? He's averaging 2.5 pts (on 47% fg and 71% ft) 2.9 rebs 0.5 asts 0.2 stls and 1.1 blks in 8.7 mpg. Most of that time coming in blowout minutes, a majority of that time while on the floor with Flip Murray.

When playing 12+ mpg, he averages 5.7 rebs and 1.7 blks. The only part that can't be construed is his scoring. 45% of the games he played, he's only taken 2 shots. When he attempts less than 4 shots he shoots 42% from the floor, when he takes 4 or more shots per game he averaged 53% from the floor.

When he plays, he produces, when he plays more minutes, he produces more. The only fault on Amir is his fouling, which happens with players who are unknown in the NBA and especially young guys who haven't played and don't know how to defend in the post. But he has to play through that. Maxiell got the same treatment last year.

Low-Ki · Post #11 » by **Low-Ki** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 4:03 pm

There is a lot more to not looking great than numbers. He looks lost a lot of the time when on the floor. He's not going to crack the rotation nor should he as he isn't ready.

Would I like to see him get meaningful minutes with some of the starters on the floor - sure. I think we should start limiting Maxey and especially McDyess' minutes going forward as both are averaging more minutes than they've been used to the last couple of years.

If you keep sheed at 30mpg, drop Maxey and McDyess down to 25mpg each, that would open up 16 minutes for Amir and Primoz.

NCHeels2008 · Post #12 » by **NCHeels2008** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 4:05 pm

I just want to say moving Dice to the starting lineup was masterful and makes me want to engage in intercourse with Joe Dumars

Dirtgrain · Post #13 » by **Dirtgrain** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:10 pm

Liqourish wrote:Umm, what exactly has shown you that he hasn't looked good?

Forget the junk-time stats--look at him when he is playing. He does sometimes look lost. When he tries to score in the half-court offensive set, he throws up some ugly shots. I've seen some terrible looking, sideways flings, where he seemingly throws the ball at the rim instead of shooting it. I don't know it is a mental problem, or if he just lacks offensive moves and skill. How good do you think his offensive game is? His outside shot? You could point out that Ben Wallace had minimal offensive skills. Amir's strengths don't outweigh his weaknesses the way Wallace's strengths outweighed his weaknesses--not yet, I think.

Yes, he gets blocks and rebounds, but I think his man-on-man defense needs work--at least against bigger power forwards. Can he consistently rebound well against better players from other teams (as opposed to junk-time scrubs)? Then again, didn't he have some solid games last year where he didn't just face junk-time players? He gets out of position on D too often, and he needs to get better at rotations. Yes, his blocks are awesome (and tied to his positioning on the court, obviously), but big-picture-wise, I don't think I'd want to see him in the game at crunch time. Would you? I could see having a lot of our other bench players in at crunch time in a pinch (Stuckey, Afflalo, Maxiell, Hunter for sure--and Hayes? Brezec?).

In what ways is Amir a liability when he's out on the floor?

Post #14 » by **Cowology** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:23 pm

I tend to agree that the stats are a bit misleading; if you actually watch Amir on the floor he unquestionably looks lost most of the time. His saving grace is that he does have nice timing around the glass.

But again, the way for him to learn is to get minutes...but he can't get minutes if he doesn't earn them...it's a catch 22. That's why I say you GIVE him 5 in the 2nd and then put the onus on him to EARN more.

Uncle Mxy · Post #15 » by **Uncle Mxy** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:32 pm

Amir strikes me as someone Flip should yank quickly if he's not bringing it within a couple minutes. If you send him back in again, he'll produce.

bstein14 · Post #16 » by **bstein14** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:36 pm

I'd be down with this for the first half of the game...

Start the game with Dice and Sheed.

At about the 2-3 minute (1st Q) mark bring in Max for Sheed.

At the start of the 2nd quarter bring in Amir for Dice.

At the 6-7 minute mark bring in Sheed for Amir.

1st half minutes:
Sheed: 16
Max: 14
Dice: 12
Amir:6
TOTAL: 48

Low-Ki · Post #17 » by **Low-Ki** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:29 pm

The best move for both involved parties would be to trade Amir Johnson for more of a now player. Lets look at the bar bones of it - he's a high schooler who hasn't played meaningful minutes in three years, and with Dice re-upped this past off-season, Maxey earning his minutes and Rasheed still Rasheed, there isn't likely going to be meaningful minutes for at least two more years(barring an injury).

Amir needs to head to a stinker team that could force feed him minutes like Durant is getting in Seattle right now.

I think we could use Amir, our first rounder and the expiring deals to make a splash at the trade deadline.

Post #18 » by **Cowology** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:33 pm

Low-Ki wrote:The best move for both involved parties would be to trade Amir Johnson for more of a now player. Lets look at the bar bones of it - he's a high schooler who hasn't played meaningful minutes in three years, and with Dice re-upped this past off-season, Maxey earning his minutes and Rasheed still Rasheed, there isn't likely going to be meaningful minutes for at least two more years(barring an injury).

Amir needs to head to a stinker team that could force feed him minutes like Durant is getting in Seattle right now.

I think we could use Amir, our first rounder and the expiring deals to make a splash at the trade deadline.

I'm beginning to lean more in this direction....although I can't help but feel we'd regret it, similar to when Portland traded away JO. 2-3 years down the line we're gonna wish we kept this kid unless we're able to put together some sort of package for a guy like Pau (unlikely).

But I agree it's gonna be hard for him to develop in Detroit given our current situation. All this seems to eerily familiar...

bstein14 · Post #19 » by **bstein14** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:43 pm

Personally if I'm Dumars I would only trade him if he wants to be traded though.

So far I haven't heard one single complaint out of him about playing time, which is much unlike Darko.

If he has any desire to go somewhere he has chance to actually play then I think Dumars should try to accommodate him.

I guess in a trade there's two options... you can make a trade for a bench player, or you can try to upgrade a starting position, which would likely be very difficult to do at this point.

If we trade Amir basically straight up for a "rotation" player that player will be taking away from our bench who's been playing great. It might be really difficult to make a trade that flat out makes us better.

Post #20 » by **Snakebites** » Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:49 pm

I seriously doubt this is a fair assesement given how little time Amir has been at the top level, but the way he looks out there is making me question the value of the D-League.

Even after all the time spent there, he still looks as green and lost out there as Id have expected without any D-league under his belt.

That said, I dont see him cutting into the rotation in any serious way. We seem rather set up front for the year.

And no, I dont think trading him is an option at this point, unless we are packaging him with someone else to upgrade a position (which I dont see happening). A straight up trade wont significantly improve the team.