Starting to feel like a Smith/Kaep redux...

[a8bil]

With all the talk about Lance v. Garappolo and when will Lance become the starter, it's starting to feel a lot like the discussion regarding Smith and Kaep. Kaep was the gazelle with a cannon for an arm and a penchant for big plays. Didn't find out until later that he couldn't read a defense, had virtually no ability to anticipate receivers coming open and had only one speed on his passes . But, he was fun for awhile -- until defenses figured him out. Who knows if Smith would have brought the 49ers a SB, but by the time he was replaced, he had figured out how to run an offense pretty efficiently, if not spectacularly. Kinda like Garappolo now...not spectacular, but clearly has shown an ability to win...when he's healthy, that is. The issue may play itself out just like Smith/Kaep with Garappolo getting injured, Lance getting his opportunity to shine and never giving up the position. In the meantime, there is this feeling like Lance is the shiny new object that the 49ers FO wants to get out and try. Let's hope that they handle this right.

[CrimsonCrew]

There are some parallels, for sure, though I think Lance should excel in areas where Kap always struggled (really grasping the offense, vision, anticipation, etc.). I think moving to Kap was the right call, even though I was generally a bigger Smith fan than most. I don't think we get through GB to make the SB in 2012 without Kap destroying them on the ground. And I think Smith's struggles in the 2011 NFC Championship Game cost us the game as much as Kyle Williams' fumbles.

[a8bil]

There are some parallels, for sure, though I think Lance should excel in areas where Kap always struggled (really grasping the offense, vision, anticipation, etc.). I think moving to Kap was the right call, even though I was generally a bigger Smith fan than most. I don't think we get through GB to make the SB in 2012 without Kap destroying them on the ground. And I think Smith's struggles in the 2011 NFC Championship Game cost us the game as much as Kyle Williams' fumbles.

Smith definitely had his limitations. His 3 pro bowl selections tell you that he was at least competent at moving an offense, albeit in little chunks. Smith's biggest limitations is that his best passing came between the hashmarks, which certainly limited the offensive threat. But, Kap was also seriously limited. It just took a while for NFL defenses to identify them, take away his strengths and force him to overcome his weaknesses. He couldn't. While I think Lance has more talent than Kap or Smith, he's going to go through the same progression of defenses finding and forcing him to confront/overcome his weaknesses...at that point we'll know if he's got "it". But, I guess I'm of the mindset that any healthy Jimmy G is the best option for now...until he gets injured again.

[CrimsonCrew]

Absolutely. It was the right call to move to Kap, but also the right call to move on from him. Kap never really improved on his weaknesses. He never figured out how to moderate his velocity, read a defense, anticipate throwing lanes, etc. He always had a good baseline efficacy because his physical tools were so good, but he couldn't ever take the next step.

[thesack12]

Alex Smith was a bad QB for the vast majority of his time in San Francisco. Under Harbaugh was really the only time he looked even serviceable. Not all that is on him, but there is a reason why he lost his job to the likes of Shaun Hill, Troy Smith, etc. 9er nation had long since soured on Alex, and didn't trust him even when he was looking decent under Harbaugh.

Its a small sample size, but when he's healthy, Jimmy at worst, has been a solid QB. The fan base has never really gotten behind Garoppolo. They also don't trust him either.

When a QB isn't well liked by a fan base, the backup is usually the most popular guy in town. Especially, when the backup is a young physical specimen with huge upside/potential and capable of making electrifying game-breaking plays regularly. This is the exact situation we had with Kaep/Alex and now with Jimmy/Lance.

Granted, how the 49ers acquired the incumbent QB and the draft capital they used to get the understudy is drastically different in each situation. All of which certainly plays a part in digesting these situations. But other than that, there are a lot of parallels here.

Yes, it was absolutely the right call to insert Kaep at the time. The team had reached its ceiling with Alex at the helm, and Kaep had a good 1.5 seasons of development time. He was ready.

I don't think its time for Lance to supplant Jimmy, yet. But we'll get there within a year.

[a8bil]

Alex Smith was a bad QB for the vast majority of his time in San Francisco. Under Harbaugh was really the only time he looked even serviceable. Not all that is on him, but there is a reason why he lost his job to the likes of Shaun Hill, Troy Smith, etc. 9er nation had long since soured on Alex, and didn't trust him even when he was looking decent under Harbaugh.

Its a small sample size, but when he's healthy, Jimmy at worst, has been a solid QB. The fan base has never really gotten behind Garoppolo. They also don't trust him either.

When a QB isn't well liked by a fan base, the backup is usually the most popular guy in town. Especially, when the backup is a young physical specimen with huge upside/potential and capable of making electrifying game-breaking plays regularly. This is the exact situation we had with Kaep/Alex and now with Jimmy/Lance.

Granted, how the 49ers acquired the incumbent QB and the draft capital they used to get the understudy is drastically different in each situation. All of which certainly plays a part in digesting these situations. But other than that, there are a lot of parallels here.

Yes, it was absolutely the right call to insert Kaep at the time. The team had reached its ceiling with Alex at the helm, and Kaep had a good 1.5 seasons of development time. He was ready.

I don't think its time for Lance to supplant Jimmy, yet. But we'll get there within a year.

I don't think the assessment of "bad QB" is necessarily fair to Smith, nor is the statement that he lost his job to any of those QBs. When Smith was not injured, he was the starter throughout his time with SF until Kaep took over. Lots of fans want to dump the travails of the late 00's 49ers on Smith, but I have a hard time doing so. They were just bad, with terrible coaching and a dearth of talent. Sure, Smith wasn't talented enough to take a bad team on his back and make them good, but improvising was never his strong suit. Executing a good offense was, which is why he shined both with Harbaugh and with Reid.

That said, I agree with the rest of your post.

[thesack12]

Alex Smith was a bad QB for the vast majority of his time in San Francisco. Under Harbaugh was really the only time he looked even serviceable. Not all that is on him, but there is a reason why he lost his job to the likes of Shaun Hill, Troy Smith, etc. 9er nation had long since soured on Alex, and didn't trust him even when he was looking decent under Harbaugh.

Its a small sample size, but when he's healthy, Jimmy at worst, has been a solid QB. The fan base has never really gotten behind Garoppolo. They also don't trust him either.

When a QB isn't well liked by a fan base, the backup is usually the most popular guy in town. Especially, when the backup is a young physical specimen with huge upside/potential and capable of making electrifying game-breaking plays regularly. This is the exact situation we had with Kaep/Alex and now with Jimmy/Lance.

Granted, how the 49ers acquired the incumbent QB and the draft capital they used to get the understudy is drastically different in each situation. All of which certainly plays a part in digesting these situations. But other than that, there are a lot of parallels here.

Yes, it was absolutely the right call to insert Kaep at the time. The team had reached its ceiling with Alex at the helm, and Kaep had a good 1.5 seasons of development time. He was ready.

I don't think its time for Lance to supplant Jimmy, yet. But we'll get there within a year.

I don't think the assessment of "bad QB" is necessarily fair to Smith, nor is the statement that he lost his job to any of those QBs. When Smith was not injured, he was the starter throughout his time with SF until Kaep took over. Lots of fans want to dump the travails of the late 00's 49ers on Smith, but I have a hard time doing so. They were just bad, with terrible coaching and a dearth of talent. Sure, Smith wasn't talented enough to take a bad team on his back and make them good, but improvising was never his strong suit. Executing a good offense was, which is why he shined both with Harbaugh and with Reid.

That said, I agree with the rest of your post.

Of course, everybody's definition of "bad" will vary.

Prior to Harbaugh (2011):

Alex carried a career 51/53 TD/Int ratio
57% career completion %, and lets not forget he famously relied on checkdowns and rarely challenged downfield
His highwater yards per attempt was 6.9, with an average of 5.9
His highwater QB rating was 82.1, with an average rating of 67.3
His highwater QBR was 44.4, with an average of 37
He took 128 sacks on 1,514 attempts, which is a sack every 11.8 pass attempts (8.5 sack%)

So by my personal definition, Alex was unequivocally bad.

I'm not 100% sure with my memory, so you might be right on Troy Smith. Smith might have taken over after Alex hurt his shoulder. But Shaun Hill beat out Alex for the starting job coming out of camp in 2009. During his 9ers tenure, Hill also managed to play surprisingly decent within the same circumstances that Alex had to endure.

While its true, we can't pin everything on Alex during that era. There was a reason, why the "WE WANT CARR" chants rained down from the crowds at Candlestick. Alex was not a good player prior to Harbaugh's whispering wonders.

[Pattersonca65]

The only difference here is Smith got hurt so Kap at least had to play in a regular season game. Harbaugh made that decision after seeing Kap playing in a regular season game. Shanahan so far isn't going to be able to do that.

[Pattersonca65]

Alex Smith was a bad QB for the vast majority of his time in San Francisco. Under Harbaugh was really the only time he looked even serviceable. Not all that is on him, but there is a reason why he lost his job to the likes of Shaun Hill, Troy Smith, etc. 9er nation had long since soured on Alex, and didn't trust him even when he was looking decent under Harbaugh.

Its a small sample size, but when he's healthy, Jimmy at worst, has been a solid QB. The fan base has never really gotten behind Garoppolo. They also don't trust him either.

When a QB isn't well liked by a fan base, the backup is usually the most popular guy in town. Especially, when the backup is a young physical specimen with huge upside/potential and capable of making electrifying game-breaking plays regularly. This is the exact situation we had with Kaep/Alex and now with Jimmy/Lance.

Granted, how the 49ers acquired the incumbent QB and the draft capital they used to get the understudy is drastically different in each situation. All of which certainly plays a part in digesting these situations. But other than that, there are a lot of parallels here.

Yes, it was absolutely the right call to insert Kaep at the time. The team had reached its ceiling with Alex at the helm, and Kaep had a good 1.5 seasons of development time. He was ready.

I don't think its time for Lance to supplant Jimmy, yet. But we'll get there within a year.

I don't think the assessment of "bad QB" is necessarily fair to Smith, nor is the statement that he lost his job to any of those QBs. When Smith was not injured, he was the starter throughout his time with SF until Kaep took over. Lots of fans want to dump the travails of the late 00's 49ers on Smith, but I have a hard time doing so. They were just bad, with terrible coaching and a dearth of talent. Sure, Smith wasn't talented enough to take a bad team on his back and make them good, but improvising was never his strong suit. Executing a good offense was, which is why he shined both with Harbaugh and with Reid.

That said, I agree with the rest of your post.

Of course, everybody's definition of "bad" will vary.

Prior to Harbaugh (2011):

Alex carried a career 51/53 TD/Int ratio
57% career completion %, and lets not forget he famously relied on checkdowns and rarely challenged downfield
His highwater yards per attempt was 6.9, with an average of 5.9
His highwater QB rating was 82.1, with an average rating of 67.3
His highwater QBR was 44.4, with an average of 37
He took 128 sacks on 1,514 attempts, which is a sack every 11.8 pass attempts (8.5 sack%)

So by my personal definition, Alex was unequivocally bad.

I'm not 100% sure with my memory, so you might be right on Troy Smith. Smith might have taken over after Alex hurt his shoulder. But Shaun Hill beat out Alex for the starting job coming out of camp in 2009. During his 9ers tenure, Hill also managed to play surprisingly decent within the same circumstances that Alex had to endure.

While its true, we can't pin everything on Alex during that era. There was a reason, why the "WE WANT CARR" chants rained down from the crowds at Candlestick. Alex was not a good player prior to Harbaugh's whispering wonders.

My old memory might be a bit off. Mike Martz was the OC under Nolan I think even after Nolan was fired. Martz was not a fan of Alex Smith. He preferred anyone to AS.

[CrimsonCrew]

I don't think the assessment of "bad QB" is necessarily fair to Smith, nor is the statement that he lost his job to any of those QBs. When Smith was not injured, he was the starter throughout his time with SF until Kaep took over. Lots of fans want to dump the travails of the late 00's 49ers on Smith, but I have a hard time doing so. They were just bad, with terrible coaching and a dearth of talent. Sure, Smith wasn't talented enough to take a bad team on his back and make them good, but improvising was never his strong suit. Executing a good offense was, which is why he shined both with Harbaugh and with Reid.

That said, I agree with the rest of your post.

Of course, everybody's definition of "bad" will vary.

Prior to Harbaugh (2011):

Alex carried a career 51/53 TD/Int ratio
57% career completion %, and lets not forget he famously relied on checkdowns and rarely challenged downfield
His highwater yards per attempt was 6.9, with an average of 5.9
His highwater QB rating was 82.1, with an average rating of 67.3
His highwater QBR was 44.4, with an average of 37
He took 128 sacks on 1,514 attempts, which is a sack every 11.8 pass attempts (8.5 sack%)

So by my personal definition, Alex was unequivocally bad.

I'm not 100% sure with my memory, so you might be right on Troy Smith. Smith might have taken over after Alex hurt his shoulder. But Shaun Hill beat out Alex for the starting job coming out of camp in 2009. During his 9ers tenure, Hill also managed to play surprisingly decent within the same circumstances that Alex had to endure.

While its true, we can't pin everything on Alex during that era. There was a reason, why the "WE WANT CARR" chants rained down from the crowds at Candlestick. Alex was not a good player prior to Harbaugh's whispering wonders.

My old memory might be a bit off. Mike Martz was the OC under Nolan I think even after Nolan was fired. Martz was not a fan of Alex Smith. He preferred anyone to AS.

You know, I could have sworn that was the case, too, but then I looked it up and 2008 - the year Martz was the OC under Nolan - Smith spent the year on IR. Martz was fired by Mike Singletary at the end of that year, and Jimmy Raye took over in 2009.

I think we are probably thinking of Martz all but openly endorsing JT O'Sullivan in the preseason.

Okay, went back and read a bunch of Wikipedia articles, looked at some old game logs, etc., and it's starting to come back to me. Smith had the shoulder separation at the end of 2007, but was "healthy" in 2008. However, apparently a wire left in the shoulder from the prior injury resulted in him breaking the shoulder and going on IR for the 2008 season. That was the week after the season opener, so he did technically lose his starting job to JT. It's fairly likely the shoulder issue affected his performance in the preseason, and frankly, I don't think Smith ever recovered his full arm strength after the shoulder separation.

[wco81]

Well they say Lance only throws fast ball, hasn't shown touch. Does that sound like a former 49ers QB we know?

Alex didn't deserve to start, kept the job too long as it was. The Alexexuals caused so much drama.

Now, I don't care either way. This is Kyle's bet or he bet the next couple of drafts on Lance.

It will either be his triumph or his epitaph. This doesn't work, Jed has to replace him, before he bungles more drafts.

They basically have until the end of Trey's rookie contract. If they haven't won a chip by then, they likely won't with this core and Kyle holding the reins.

Whether Trey only starts 1 season or all 5 seasons of his rookie contract, something has to happen.

[a8bil]

Well they say Lance only throws fast ball, hasn't shown touch. Does that sound like a former 49ers QB we know?

Alex didn't deserve to start, kept the job too long as it was. The Alexexuals caused so much drama.

Now, I don't care either way. This is Kyle's bet or he bet the next couple of drafts on Lance.

It will either be his triumph or his epitaph. This doesn't work, Jed has to replace him, before he bungles more drafts.

They basically have until the end of Trey's rookie contract. If they haven't won a chip by then, they likely won't with this core and Kyle holding the reins.

Whether Trey only starts 1 season or all 5 seasons of his rookie contract, something has to happen.

Such a childish statement. Smith was a 3 time pro bowler who took the 49ers to the championship game (and barely lost) with Kyle Williams as the second best WR on the team. Smith had his limitations, but these kind of comments were unwarranted then just as now.

[wco81]

He was NEVER a Pro Bowler here.

Nice try with that BS.

He sucked and only Harbaugh had the balls to replace him.

He got Nolan, Singletary fired, though they deserved it for other reasons as well.

Likeable guy but not good enough here or even KC where Reid’s offense got him his best seasons but even Reid recognized he needed to move on.

[Pattersonca65]

He was NEVER a Pro Bowler here.

Nice try with that BS.

He sucked and only Harbaugh had the balls to replace him.

He got Nolan, Singletary fired, though they deserved it for other reasons as well.

Likeable guy but not good enough here or even KC where Reid’s offense got him his best seasons but even Reid recognized he needed to move on.

I think this is a bit harsh. Smith got a bad deal in SF until Harbaugh came along. Smith became a good QB, just limited. He wasn't going to win you games but not lose them either. I was ok with kaep taking over. But Smith didn't get Nolan and Singletary fired, Nolan and Singletary were just awful. Smith was only 20 when drafted. Alex Smith played as a rookie, and while not good Norv Turner had things in a positive direction. When Norv Turner left, it blew everything up. Nolan promoted Jeff Hostler who was clearly way in over his head, and the entire offense imploded. Nolan's defenses in SF were never any good either. Nolan hasn't even been able to hold a job in the NFL as DC since SF as he keeps floating from team to team. Singletary was clearly way in over his head. When he fired Nolan and didn't get his first choice for OC, he hired Jimmy Raye as OC. I don't know if he could have found a worse choice. Jimmy Raye made Geep Chryst look like Bill Walsh. That is how bad he was.

[CrimsonCrew]

He was NEVER a Pro Bowler here.

Nice try with that BS.

He sucked and only Harbaugh had the balls to replace him.

He got Nolan, Singletary fired, though they deserved it for other reasons as well.

Likeable guy but not good enough here or even KC where Reid’s offense got him his best seasons but even Reid recognized he needed to move on.

Alex Smith got Mike Nolan and Mike Singletary fired??? Hahahahahahahaha! Good one.

[wco81]

Not the only reason but a big reason.

Singletary never should have been hired but he had a loaded roster and weak QB play hurt him.

[CrimsonCrew]

Not the only reason but a big reason.

Singletary never should have been hired but he had a loaded roster and weak QB play hurt him.

Nolan took Smith over Rodgers, so he got what he had coming (one of many, many mistakes). Singletary picked Jimmy Raye to be his OC, so he doesn't have the right to complain about any offensive shortcomings.

Smith was awful for years, and even at his best was only okay. But he was in as tough a situation as a guy can be in. He wasn't ready as a rookie, but got thrown in with an awful OL and no skill players worth a darn. He took a beating, had to learn a new offense every offseason for the first five years of his NFL career, and injured his throwing arm before finding any stability. That's in addition to suffering personal tragedy off the field. I have no delusions that he was a great player for the Niners, but he got a raw deal and handled it with about as much grace as a person can.

[wco81]

Like I said a nice guy, well-liked, but he kept the team back for a decade.

Yeah sure the coaching and player personnel were bad in those years (though they did form the roster which eventually reached the SB).

That one pick, they were stuck with it and didn't draft another QB high until Kaepernick? And Harbaugh really had to push the GM to make that pick.

Anyways, Jimmy G has a good record in games he's started and the team did get to the SB. Kyle decided he wasn't good enough to carry the team so made the big move for Trey.

I don't think there's much of a competition at all. Trey is the anointed one and it's just a matter of when, not if he takes over.

And Harbaugh also made the right choice, at least he got to go with the guy that he lobbied for, not Alex, whom he inherited.

[CrimsonCrew]

Like I said a nice guy, well-liked, but he kept the team back for a decade.

Yeah sure the coaching and player personnel were bad in those years (though they did form the roster which eventually reached the SB).

That one pick, they were stuck with it and didn't draft another QB high until Kaepernick? And Harbaugh really had to push the GM to make that pick.

Anyways, Jimmy G has a good record in games he's started and the team did get to the SB. Kyle decided he wasn't good enough to carry the team so made the big move for Trey.

I don't think there's much of a competition at all. Trey is the anointed one and it's just a matter of when, not if he takes over.

And Harbaugh also made the right choice, at least he got to go with the guy that he lobbied for, not Alex, whom he inherited.

That's true, but you can't blame Smith for the fact that the FO didn't try to upgrade him.

We'll never know what would have been, but it would be really interesting if we could rewind the clock and send Rodgers here and Smith to GB. It's hard to bet against Rodgers, but it's also hard to imagine any QB succeeding when thrust into the situation Smith was. And Smith needed time to sit and digest things, which Rodgers got. I'm not claiming that these two are or ever would have been comparable NFL talents. Just that it would be an interesting experiment. And I am one who thinks that the shoulder injury had a longterm impact on Smith's throwing ability, such that by the time he was in a good situation, he was no longer able to really take advantage of it.

[Pattersonca65]

Like I said a nice guy, well-liked, but he kept the team back for a decade.

Yeah sure the coaching and player personnel were bad in those years (though they did form the roster which eventually reached the SB).

That one pick, they were stuck with it and didn't draft another QB high until Kaepernick? And Harbaugh really had to push the GM to make that pick.

Anyways, Jimmy G has a good record in games he's started and the team did get to the SB. Kyle decided he wasn't good enough to carry the team so made the big move for Trey.

I don't think there's much of a competition at all. Trey is the anointed one and it's just a matter of when, not if he takes over.

And Harbaugh also made the right choice, at least he got to go with the guy that he lobbied for, not Alex, whom he inherited.

That's true, but you can't blame Smith for the fact that the FO didn't try to upgrade him.

We'll never know what would have been, but it would be really interesting if we could rewind the clock and send Rodgers here and Smith to GB. It's hard to bet against Rodgers, but it's also hard to imagine any QB succeeding when thrust into the situation Smith was. And Smith needed time to sit and digest things, which Rodgers got. I'm not claiming that these two are or ever would have been comparable NFL talents. Just that it would be an interesting experiment. And I am one who thinks that the shoulder injury had a longterm impact on Smith's throwing ability, such that by the time he was in a good situation, he was no longer able to really take advantage of it.

Smith was only 20 years old when he was drafted.