Fixing Milwaukee

[REDDzone]

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I like Williams - he's a legitimately talented player. But he's a terrible fit as the PG with Milwaukee.

You haven't watched him this year I assume?

[Ruzious]

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And the Redd trade puts Milwaukee in position to get him.

That's actually a very good point - though they may be on their way - even without the trade.

True - Redd is going to be highly over-paid, but I'm not sure cap space is going to be enough for a great free agent to want to go there. And I think if the best player Milwaukee gets in a Redd trade is Cook, the fans will march to the arena floor with torches.

[nate33]

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Except we only signed Mason for two years so you're wrong.

No, I am not wrong.

I'm assuming next year Bogut+Mason cost $9.5M
The year after, Bogut costs $8.0M (a guess on his new contract)
And the year after that, Bogut costs $8.5M

[Baddy Chuck]

Trade 1: Acquire defensive center:

Milwaukee trades: Bogut, Mason
Philly trades: Dalembert

Why for Philly: They get a younger, cheaper center who has the potential to develop into a better player down the road.

So if Bogut could be better in the future, why would a rebuilding team trade a younger, cheaper player?

[trwi7]

No, I am not wrong.

I'm assuming next year Bogut+Mason cost $9.5M
The year after, Bogut costs $8.0M (a guess on his new contract)
And the year after that, Bogut costs $8.5M

Okay I got it. But again we're rebuilding by trading Redd so why exactly would we trade Bogut who is younger than Dalembert and who you said could be a better player than Dalembert? That doesn't make any sense and both of these trades are still bad for the Bucks.

[nate33]

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So if Bogut could be better in the future, why would a rebuilding team trade a younger, cheaper player?

Because Dalembert is a better fit alongside Yi.

Also, it's not a certainty that Bogut will end up better than Dalembert, nor is a certainty that he'll be cheaper. Bogut is up for a contract during an offseason when a bunch of teams will have cap space. Milwaukee might be faced with the choice of letting him go for nothing, or matching an extraordinarily high contract offer.

But the main thing here is that I think Bogut is mildly overrated by Bucks fans, and Dalembert is mildly underrated by just about everybody. If nothing else, note that Philly has a better record (and a MUCH better point differential) than Milwaukee despite playing with total garbage at SG and PF. If you argue that Iggy and Redd are roughly equivalent, and Mo Williams and Andre Miller are roughly equivalent; the reason Philly is better than Milwaukee must be that Dalembert and a bunch of scrubs are better than Bogut and the rest of Milwaukee's decent supporting cast.

[Baddy Chuck]

But the main thing here is that I think Bogut is mildly overrated by Bucks fans, and Dalembert is mildly underrated by just about everybody. If nothing else, note that Philly has a better record (and a MUCH better point differential) than Milwaukee despite playing with total garbage at SG and PF. If you argue that Iggy and Redd are roughly equivalent, and Mo Williams and Andre Miller are roughly equivalent; the reason Philly is better than Milwaukee must be that Dalembert and a bunch of scrubs are better than Bogut and the rest of Milwaukee's decent supporting cast.

So we trade Redd and make our team that much worse then Philly? That was a horrible comparison.

[trwi7]

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Because Dalembert is a better fit alongside Yi.

Also, it's not a certainty that Bogut will end up better than Dalembert, nor is a certainty that he'll be cheaper. Bogut is up for a contract during an offseason when a bunch of teams will have cap space. Milwaukee might be faced with the choice of letting him go for nothing, or matching an extraordinarily high contract offer.

But the main thing here is that I think Bogut is mildly overrated by Bucks fans, and Dalembert is mildly underrated by just about everybody. If nothing else, note that Philly has a better record (and a MUCH better point differential) than Milwaukee despite playing with total garbage at SG and PF. If you argue that Iggy and Redd are roughly equivalent, and Mo Williams and Andre Miller are roughly equivalent; the reason Philly is better than Milwaukee must be that Dalembert and a bunch of scrubs are better than Bogut and the rest of Milwaukee's decent supporting cast.

Again explain how Dalembert is a better fit next to Yi. You keep saying that and we keep telling you Dalembert and Bogut both do exactly the same thing except Bogut is younger and could be better by your own admission. So if we're rebuilding we'll keep the younger and potentially better player.

[nate33]

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So we trade Redd and make our team that much worse then Philly? That was a horrible comparison.

Can we stick to one argument at a time please?

The Dalembert/Bogut deal is one deal. I think it's a reasonable one and I've cited why. You can disagree, but it's hardly a terrible proposal.

The Redd deal is a bit more radical. I said on the first page that I understand Milwaukee's reluctance. The key on whether or not the trade should be made hinges on what Milwaukee would do with the cap room.

If, by dumping Redd and Gadzuric, the Bucks end up tanking and getting O.J. Mayo in the draft, and then they acquire Luol Deng or Andre Iguodala as a free agent, than it's certainly a great deal. The Bucks would be better, more well-balanced, younger, and have a cheaper payroll.

If, after dumping Redd and Gadzuric, the Bucks end up striking out in the draft lottery and in free agency, then maybe the deal isn't so good. The Bucks would still have great cap space and ownership would probably be happy about saving $20M a year, but the team would be worse. However, even then, the Bucks could work out a Kurt Thomas type of deal to acquire more picks, and still be in position to take another shot at free agency in Summer '09 when a lot more players will be available.

[nate33]

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Again explain how Dalembert is a better fit next to Yi. You keep saying that and we keep telling you Dalembert and Bogut both do exactly the same thing except Bogut is younger and could be better by your own admission. So if we're rebuilding we'll keep the younger and potentially better player.

Dalembert rebounds better, blocks more shots, and has a long history of dramatically improving his team's on/off defensive numbers (opponent FG%, defensive rebounding percentage, points per 100 possessions, etc).

Bogut rebounds less, blocks fewer shots, and the on/off numbers show that he makes his team worse with respect to on/off defensive numbers.

[trwi7]

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Dalembert rebounds better, blocks more shots, and has a long history of dramatically improving his team's on/off defensive numbers (opponent FG%, defensive rebounding percentage, points per 100 possessions, etc).

Bogut rebounds less, blocks fewer shots, and the on/off numbers show that he makes his team worse with respect to on/off defensive numbers.

So again explain how this trade makes sense when you admitted that Bogut has more potential and has also dramatically improved his defense and shot blocking is a good trade for the Bucks?

We're not going to trade Redd (which would signal rebuilding) for crap and then trade our young center (who should be a part of the rebuilding) for an older center making a lot of money for a long time. That's just stupid.

[nate33]

Dalembert is 26. He is 3-1/2 years older than Bogut. he's still got a good 8-10 years of game left in him. Let's not make this out like I'm proposing trading Bogut for Kurt Thomas or something.

[trwi7]

Dalembert is 26. He is 3-1/2 years older than Bogut. he's still got a good 8-10 years of game left in him. Let's not make this out like I'm proposing trading Bogut for Kurt Thomas or something.

But he is still 3-1/2 years older. Your proposed Redd trade means the Bucks are rebuilding which would mean it would make sense to keep the younger player, correct?

[Ruzious]

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Hes a great fit at PG I think, Redds just not as good a fit at SG.

LOL.

[Buck You]

I think Mo would be much better without Redd undermining him.

[Ruzious]

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You haven't watched him this year I assume?

LOL, you guys are killing me withing your indepth logic. Bucks fans are too smart for these kinds of posts.

[trwi7]

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LOL, you guys are killing me withing your indepth logic. Bucks fans are too smart for these kinds of posts.

How many times have you seen him this year? Mo has completely changed his game this year. He still needs to work on his defense but he just turned 25 and would fit with our young core.

[Baddy Chuck]

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How many times have you seen him this year? Mo has completely changed his game this year. He still needs to work on his defense but he just turned 25 and would fit with our young core.

Exactly. He may not be scoring as much but who can with Redd shooting 25 shots a game?

[REDDzone]

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LOL, you guys are killing me withing your indepth logic. Bucks fans are too smart for these kinds of posts.

You mock 'indepth logic' when your original post said something along the lines of "I like Mo but he's a bad fit".

How is that in-depth logic.

The bottom line is, last year and previously, Mo was shoot-first. This year he isn't. He has done everything the Bucks asked him to do in the off-season, and he is a good fit for us now.

[Ruzious]

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But he is still 3-1/2 years older. Your proposed Redd trade means the Bucks are rebuilding which would mean it would make sense to keep the younger player, correct?

I'm not sure I'd make the trade, but clearly defense and rebounding are weaknesses on the Bucks, and Daly is better at both - particularly on defense - even though Bogut has improved his shot-blocking from pathetic to okay - so far. 26 is still a fine age for a rebuilding team. And in a couple of years, Bogut is likely going to make money similar to Daly.