Miami Heat 2023/2024 Regular Season - Thread 2.0

[dshearn]

I don't know what everyone else sees....

But my layman eyes are telling me Tyler needs to change the way he plays ball.

I will easily admit tons of you dudes know a lot more than I do about basketball, but my surface take on this is that ball needs to keep moving.

We can look at the stats and see that Tyler does xyz more scoring and assisting then Duncan does, or whomever...whatever player we want to put out there.....but to me...that does not really matter if the way the ball moves has to change to accommodate Tyler.


Yeah I get that Tyler doing Tyler things is more productive for Tyler then Duncan playing second or third fiddle when he is on the floor is for Duncan. This really could be a sum greater then it's parts kind of thing.

I don't want to trade anyone...really......but I could easily see a Bam/jovic/JJJ centric team having a high ceiling in the years to come. I think any player that needs or keeps the ball in their hands for extended periods of the shot clock is a net negative in the future. That really has me leaning team Duncan. The dude fits with that future trio, and his game should age well.


Either way, it is hard to not think of Duncan of years past, or Tyler of years past...we are darned blessed that both of them have taken a major step forward this year. I really hope we can get more of that 10 assist Tyler we saw earlier this year.

[MettaWorldPanda]

This whole Duncan vs Herro thing is so backwards it hurts my brain:

- First of all Herro is just getting 24y and Duncan is 29y
- Duncan's ceiling we already know, it is role player
- Herro's ceiling isn't known, players still significantly improve from age 24 onwards, until they reach their peak around 26-28

I much rather invest into the 24y old, who already is a better player, than the 29y old. They aren't trading Tyler for role players or marinal older upgrades, if someone gets traded in those kind of trades it will be Duncan.

The second part:

- Duncan gets to play with Jimmy/Bam and can comfortably slide into a role of a 3rd banana, getting easy shots, while Jimmy/Bam draw most of the attention
- Tyler comes back and Jimmy goes out, now Tyler is the guy who does a lot of playmaking, draws double teams and has to create offense

Lets look at the stats of the last 10 games:

Duncan: 30 mins, 13.1 pts (54.7% TS), 2.3 rebs, 3.1 asts, 1 stls, 1.3 tos
Tyler: 34.6 mins, 21.8 pts (53.1% TS), 5.8 rebs, 4.7 asts, 1.2 stls, 2.3 tos

They both play a similiar amount of minutes, but Tyler is much more productive, has the primary ball handler role. Duncan is marginally more effective in his role player role, than Tyler is as a primary ball handler and playmaker.

Yesterdays game vs Orlando pretty much showed they were missing the playmkaing of Tyler and the attention that he draws. The whole team had 16 turnovers and only 23 assists (Duncan went 3 asts/3tos, had an ok shooting night though).

There is no way I'm giving Duncan the starter spot, because he is good as a role player. Tyler is the guy who needs to learn how to play smarter, lean more on his playmaking skills and take fewer bad shots (he is 5.2 asts/1.5tos in his last 6 games, I hope the trend continues). It will lift the potential of the whole team and his own, he can easily play the same role player role as Duncan, but he has the potential to be more.

My exact same thoughts to be honest. Herro is an easy punching bag for this fan base while many seem to love hanging onto the feel good story of Duncan through the good and bad. When Herro struggles it's trade him NOW but when he does good it's ho hum oh well. When Duncan goes 1 for 9 and 1 for 8 from 3 it's crickets but when he does well it's trade Herro blah blah blah. The landscape of depth charts around the league is crowded at Herro's position. Many seem to keep dealing him in trades to teams that don't make sense and the teams that could use him don't seem to appease some with the value we are getting.

[MettaWorldPanda]

Tyler is playing the way Spo and the organization want him to play. If he wasn't playing the way they wanted he would be disciplined and then the trade wheels would be turning. Herro is not going rogue. They know he's a scorer and it's something they desperately need at this time especially with Butler out. The problem is the lack of PG's on this team have forced him to be on the ball a ton and as we already know that's not really what we should be asking of him for long stretches. When Duncan is in the game he doesn't have the same responsibilities bestowed upon him. I think even Duncan would admit that Herro is entirely way more talented then he is. They just serve different roles and sometimes the roles look better then the other because of different set of factors. I'm honestly sick and tired of seeing Spo play Herro and J Rich on ball so much because he can't resist the smell of his own position less basketball farts and the organization continues to be bad at roster building at the PG and PF position.

[Bishop45]

I'm not down on Herro, but I recognize that he's closer to the demarcation line of viable asset than he is to the line for untouchable assets

I'm in line with the thinking that he should only be available for All NBA player (Like Randle) or decent platter of assets.

[twix2500]

ceiling means potential which also means talent

Unknown ceiling either means one can't evaluate Herros potential or he has unlimited potential. I doubt either is fact. By the time a player gets to college most understands a players potential.

Age is only an estimate time for a player to reach his potential before his body starts to breakdown

players everywhere are evaluated based on if his potential (ie ceiling) is worth the wait (age).

I think some are trying to use the term ceiling in place of destiny. That's not what a players ceiling means

I see your point about "ceiling" being an indicator of a player's potential, but I think there's more nuance to it, especially when discussing young athletes like Tyler Herro. The concept of a player's ceiling being well understood by college is a bit of an oversimplification. There are countless examples of players who have far exceeded their perceived potential from their college days, as well as those who have fallen short.

When we talk about an "unknown ceiling," it's not just about an inability to evaluate a player's potential. It's about acknowledging the unpredictable nature of human development, especially in sports. A player might have a set of skills or physical attributes that suggest a certain trajectory, but their work ethic, mental toughness, adaptability to higher levels of play, environment, mentors, coaches and even luck (when it comes to injuries), play huge roles in their eventual success.

I know what how your trying to use the term ceiling. But that's why you keep getting frustrated because people do not use the term ceiling like that. Again your using it a synonymous for ones destiny. No one knows what a players destined to be, and ceiling has never been used as ones destiny. But we all knew Curry Ceiling was as an elite shooter he was not gonna be jumping dunking on players like Jordan. We knew that before he got to college.

Giving a term multiple meanings is gonna make endless discussions because your arguing over two different points using one term

Ceiling is the point that is a player maximize all his abilities. Most players never ever reach their ceiling. Many unknown factors happens along the way.

Can a person evaluate wrong sure. But Herro isn't some Unicorn physical talent, he is not some great physical specimen. Sure Herro can get smarter, most players continue to get smarter after their body starts to decline. How much better can he potentially get and is it worth waiting 5 more yrs for? At some point you got to make a decison.

When Leif uses the term no ceiling for Bam. He is saying Bam has unlimited potential. Which he admits himself is not true but he thinks its a catchy catch phrase


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[VaDe255]

I know what how your trying to use the term ceiling. But that's why you keep getting frustrated because people do not use the term ceiling like that. Again your using it a synonymous for ones destiny. No one knows what a players destined to be, and ceiling has never been used as ones destiny. But we all knew Curry Ceiling was as an elite shooter he was not gonna be jumping dunking on players like Jordan. We knew that before he got to college.

Giving a term multiple meanings is gonna make endless discussions because your arguing over two different points using one term

Ceiling is the point that is a player maximize all his abilities. Most players never ever reach their ceiling. Many unknown factors happens along the way.

Can a person evaluate wrong sure. But Herro isn't some Unicorn physical talent, he is not some great physical specimen. Sure Herro can get smarter, most players continue to get smarter after their body starts to decline. How much better can he potentially get and is it worth waiting 5 more yrs for? At some point you got to make a decison.

When Leif uses the term no ceiling for Bam. He is saying Bam has unlimited potential. Which he admits himself is not true but he thinks its a catchy catch phrase

I understand your perspective on using the term "ceiling" to mean the maximum potential a player can achieve, I believe it's a more complex concept than just a fixed endpoint. Yes, Stephen Curry's elite shooting was evident before college (his brother Seth is an equally skilled shooter, yet has a different end point), but his evolution into an all-around player was not as clearly foreseen. This evolution represents the fluidity of a player's ceiling.

You mentioned Tyler Herro, suggesting he isn't a "unicorn" in terms of physical talent, and that's precisely why the concept of an "unknown ceiling" is relevant. His potential isn't just in his physical attributes but also in his ability to adapt, learn, and grow. The notion that most players never reach their ceiling because of various unknown factors aligns with the idea that a player's ceiling isn't a predestined fate but a dynamic target.

Regarding Bam Adebayo and the "no ceiling" phrase, it's more than just a catchy catchphrase. It's an acknowledgment of his multifaceted potential that isn't solely based on physical prowess. His ceiling, like many players, isn't just about how high he can jump or how fast he can run, but also about his ability to develop skills, leadership qualities, and basketball IQ.

In the dynamic and ever-evolving world of sports, ceilings are not static. They change as players grow, and as the game itself changes. While it's essential to make decisions based on current assessments, it's also crucial to consider the potential for growth and adaptation beyond what's immediately apparent.

[twix2500]

I know what how your trying to use the term ceiling. But that's why you keep getting frustrated because people do not use the term ceiling like that. Again your using it a synonymous for ones destiny. No one knows what a players destined to be, and ceiling has never been used as ones destiny. But we all knew Curry Ceiling was as an elite shooter he was not gonna be jumping dunking on players like Jordan. We knew that before he got to college.

Giving a term multiple meanings is gonna make endless discussions because your arguing over two different points using one term

Ceiling is the point that is a player maximize all his abilities. Most players never ever reach their ceiling. Many unknown factors happens along the way.

Can a person evaluate wrong sure. But Herro isn't some Unicorn physical talent, he is not some great physical specimen. Sure Herro can get smarter, most players continue to get smarter after their body starts to decline. How much better can he potentially get and is it worth waiting 5 more yrs for? At some point you got to make a decison.

When Leif uses the term no ceiling for Bam. He is saying Bam has unlimited potential. Which he admits himself is not true but he thinks its a catchy catch phrase

I understand your perspective on using the term "ceiling" to mean the maximum potential a player can achieve, I believe it's a more complex concept than just a fixed endpoint. Yes, Stephen Curry's elite shooting was evident before college, but his evolution into an all-around player was not as clearly foreseen. This evolution represents the fluidity of a player's ceiling.

You mentioned Tyler Herro, suggesting he isn't a "unicorn" in terms of physical talent, and that's precisely why the concept of an "unknown ceiling" is relevant. His potential isn't just in his physical attributes but also in his ability to adapt, learn, and grow. The notion that most players never reach their ceiling because of various unknown factors aligns with the idea that a player's ceiling isn't a predestined fate but a dynamic target.

Regarding Bam Adebayo and the "no ceiling" phrase, it's more than just a catchy catchphrase. It's an acknowledgment of his multifaceted potential that isn't solely based on physical prowess. His ceiling, like many players, isn't just about how high he can jump or how fast he can run, but also about his ability to develop skills, leadership qualities, and basketball IQ.

In the dynamic and ever-evolving world of sports, ceilings are not static. They change as players grow, and as the game itself changes. While it's essential to make decisions based on current assessments, it's also crucial to consider the potential for growth and adaptation beyond what's immediately apparent.

Man your determined to stretch this term ceiling. People used it as synonym for potential because the space between the ceiling and a person head is their room for growth. Thats all it ever meant.

But hey my old age is getting to me lol.

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[3ammy3uck3ts]

Some are still in denial I see, nothing wrong with that. Hell I wish he would change his play style and it would all work out but it isn’t going to. In the end it’s just going to be a major thorn in the side of the team but if he continues to put up his PPG people are going to blindly think that correlates to him playing good whether we lose or not.

Hopefully we find the right trade for him, need the Mitchell stuff to finally come to fruition in the next year or so.

[AirP.]

Man your determined to stretch this term ceiling. People used it as synonym for potential because the space between the ceiling and a person head is their room for growth. Thats all it ever meant.

But hey my old age is getting to me lol.

I guess the issue are the words ceiling/potential which most of us go with expected/perceived max level of a player based off where they are currently and expected growth with their body/game/intelligence because if we don't go with that then there's no ceiling for anyone or everyone's potential is just limited for what a human can do.

[twix2500]

Man your determined to stretch this term ceiling. People used it as synonym for potential because the space between the ceiling and a person head is their room for growth. Thats all it ever meant.

But hey my old age is getting to me lol.

I guess the issue are the words ceiling/potential which most of us go with expected/perceived max level of a player based off where they are currently and expected growth with their body/game/intelligence because if we don't go with that then there's no ceiling for anyone or everyone's potential is just limited for what a human can do.

Well that why I had to take a stance. Because saying you can't estimate Herro ceiling, then you can't for anyone.

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[3ammy3uck3ts]

Read on Twitter

[twix2500]

Read on Twitter

I mean Murray is a better player

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[3ammy3uck3ts]

Read on Twitter

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Read on Twitter

I mean Murray is a better player

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Right lol I posted to show what the Hawks are asking for. Not a crazy ask to be honest

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Read on Twitter

So we have legit inquired about Murray and are interested. Nice.

[Johnny Fontane]

Tyler>>Lavine

Statistics and eye test

[RexBoyWonder]

Very suprised some of you are willing to trade Herro For Murray.

Herro is the better player IMO, and he's improving while Murray is a finished product.

My only intrest in Murray is if we can get him without losing Herro/JJJ/Jovic.

We should'nt lose any of them for a PG that isn't even top 10 at his position, maybe even not top 20.

[VaDe255]

Man your determined to stretch this term ceiling. People used it as synonym for potential because the space between the ceiling and a person head is their room for growth. Thats all it ever meant.

But hey my old age is getting to me lol.

I guess the issue are the words ceiling/potential which most of us go with expected/perceived max level of a player based off where they are currently and expected growth with their body/game/intelligence because if we don't go with that then there's no ceiling for anyone or everyone's potential is just limited for what a human can do.

Well that why I had to take a stance. Because saying you can't estimate Herro ceiling, then you can't for anyone.

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Sure, if you guys can estimate those so easily.
What is Herro's ceiling? What is JJJ's ceiling? What is Jovic's ceiling?

I'm very curious about that.

[twix2500]

I guess the issue are the words ceiling/potential which most of us go with expected/perceived max level of a player based off where they are currently and expected growth with their body/game/intelligence because if we don't go with that then there's no ceiling for anyone or everyone's potential is just limited for what a human can do.

Well that why I had to take a stance. Because saying you can't estimate Herro ceiling, then you can't for anyone.

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Sure, if you guys can estimate those so easily.
What is Herro's ceiling? What is JJJ's ceiling? What is Jovic's ceiling?

I'm very curious about that.

Not gonna get into that debate. It's been hashed over thousand of times.

[VaDe255]

Well that why I had to take a stance. Because saying you can't estimate Herro ceiling, then you can't for anyone.

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Sure, if you guys can estimate those so easily.
What is Herro's ceiling? What is JJJ's ceiling? What is Jovic's ceiling?

I'm very curious about that.

Not gonna get into that debate. It's been hashed over thousand of times.

Or because, you can ask 10 different scouts and they all say different things?
This stuff isn't exact science and if for example Charlotte drafted JJJ, I project his ceiling to be naturally lower, because Miami is simply better at getting the best out of players.