What level of success would make the Gobert trade acceptable?

[Note30]

Read on Twitter

Durant is a two time champion with multiple MVPs that puts up 50-40-90 while giving you 25+ a night and plays pretty amazing help defense in multiple defensive schemes and is despite most fan chatter a consummate professional. He just can't keep his hands off Twitter.

Gobert can't catch the ball and requires specific passes, has little to no offensive skill to speak of, and can only and I mean only play drop coverage defense, he's also never gotten past more than the first round and whichever team he's on has had teammates that really don't like him, has treated a deadly virus as a joke, and otherwise done and said multiple things that make him seem even more childish than Durant.

So yeah whatever this post is trying to prove is failing.

Sometimes, a trade isn't just about the individual pieces in the trade, and should also be judged on how it affects the surrounding pieces.

Say what you want about Gobert's offensive skill, but that's not why he was brought in. Bringing him in allows Karl and Naz to not be so roasted on defense (their weaknesses) and instead focus on their offense where they thrive. Bringing him in gives Jaden another running mate on defense and allows Ant to play more of a free safety role on defense where he excels.

What did Durant do to the Suns? He's made a young center in Ayton an afterthought with one foot out of the door. Chris Paul is likely gone too. That roster is completely bare, there's no Ant or Jaden there for them to point to as the future.

What did Gobert do here, we weren't exactly a top 10 defense this year, nor were we a better rebounding team. Hell we couldn't even do that against the Nuggets when we had both Towns and Gobert, even in the OT game we barely put rebounded them.

[Dewey]

Durant is a two time champion with multiple MVPs that puts up 50-40-90 while giving you 25+ a night and plays pretty amazing help defense in multiple defensive schemes and is despite most fan chatter a consummate professional. He just can't keep his hands off Twitter.

Gobert can't catch the ball and requires specific passes, has little to no offensive skill to speak of, and can only and I mean only play drop coverage defense, he's also never gotten past more than the first round and whichever team he's on has had teammates that really don't like him, has treated a deadly virus as a joke, and otherwise done and said multiple things that make him seem even more childish than Durant.

So yeah whatever this post is trying to prove is failing.

Sometimes, a trade isn't just about the individual pieces in the trade, and should also be judged on how it affects the surrounding pieces.

Say what you want about Gobert's offensive skill, but that's not why he was brought in. Bringing him in allows Karl and Naz to not be so roasted on defense (their weaknesses) and instead focus on their offense where they thrive. Bringing him in gives Jaden another running mate on defense and allows Ant to play more of a free safety role on defense where he excels.

What did Durant do to the Suns? He's made a young center in Ayton an afterthought with one foot out of the door. Chris Paul is likely gone too. That roster is completely bare, there's no Ant or Jaden there for them to point to as the future.

What did Gobert do here, we weren't exactly a top 10 defense this year, nor were we a better rebounding team. Hell we couldn't even do that against the Nuggets when we had both Towns and Gobert, even in the OT game we barely put rebounded them.

Was our defense better? Yes. Even after trading 2 of our better defenders Vanderbilt and Beverly.

Durant is a rich and talented stat stuffer …. But, he has proven incapable of leading a team. Lots of assets were moved for that guy and he always has gotten his money, but the only time he paid off was when he went to a team that was poised to win on their own.

OKC? Nope, he left.

GSW? Nope, he rode the Curry/Thompson/Green wagon for 2 rings… also Iguodala, Bogut, Livingston, Looney … they were stacked.

NJN? Nope, he left.

PHO? Nope, shelves are bare.

It’s easy to sit and grind on any given player all day long - every day. Even exposing a top talent like Durant for his clear inability to lead as he has hoarded millions and millions. Rag on Gobert all you want - that’s fine, and I’ll continue to rag on the wounded-whiner KAT. Easy stuff. We need a PG and more team grit. These players will respond to their sub-par season or they will not. As MJ always said, it’s a players game.

[Note30]

Sometimes, a trade isn't just about the individual pieces in the trade, and should also be judged on how it affects the surrounding pieces.

Say what you want about Gobert's offensive skill, but that's not why he was brought in. Bringing him in allows Karl and Naz to not be so roasted on defense (their weaknesses) and instead focus on their offense where they thrive. Bringing him in gives Jaden another running mate on defense and allows Ant to play more of a free safety role on defense where he excels.

What did Durant do to the Suns? He's made a young center in Ayton an afterthought with one foot out of the door. Chris Paul is likely gone too. That roster is completely bare, there's no Ant or Jaden there for them to point to as the future.

What did Gobert do here, we weren't exactly a top 10 defense this year, nor were we a better rebounding team. Hell we couldn't even do that against the Nuggets when we had both Towns and Gobert, even in the OT game we barely put rebounded them.

Was our defense better? Yes. Even after trading 2 of our better defenders Vanderbilt and Beverly.

Durant is a rich and talented stat stuffer …. But, he has proven incapable of leading a team. Lots of assets were moved for that guy and he always has gotten his money, but the only time he paid off was when he went to a team that was poised to win on their own.

OKC? Nope, he left.

GSW? Nope, he rode the Curry/Thompson/Green wagon for 2 rings… also Iguodala, Bogut, Livingston, Looney … they were stacked.

NJN? Nope, he left.

PHO? Nope, shelves are bare.

It’s easy to sit and grind on any given player all day long - every day. Even exposing a top talent like Durant for his clear inability to lead as he has hoarded millions and millions. Rag on Gobert all you want - that’s fine, and I’ll continue to rag on the wounded-whiner KAT. Easy stuff. We need a PG and more team grit. These players will respond to their sub-par season or they will not. As MJ always said, it’s a players game.

No it wasn't. Our defense wasn't better. Stop saying that or find metrics that prove it, because I'm not seeing it anywhere. If you want to talk specifically about half court defense fine, but outside of that as a whole it was worse.

As for KD...

OKC - he took that team to the Finals, versus Gobert has done what, get bounced and exposed in any 5 out scheme?

GSW - They needed Durant otherwise without him they were getting bounced by LeBron and Co.

Brooklyn was a **** show in general and he still did a really solid job.

It's been less than half a season with KD (8 games) and he still won them two games and a whole series. Yes they got bounced but they didnt have their starting PG or C. I don't know what you're on.

Are you seriously implying that Durant and Gobert are anywhere close to the same level?!

Nobody mentioned KAT, I haven't either, I'm not a huge fan, but I think he's still an OK player, but I'm sick of everyone pretending like Gobert is actually elite. He's not and it's clear. It's like when people argue Draymond Green is an elite player. He's not. We saw what a team led by Gobert at Center took us to. Fulckin nowhere.

[Dewey]

What did Gobert do here, we weren't exactly a top 10 defense this year, nor were we a better rebounding team. Hell we couldn't even do that against the Nuggets when we had both Towns and Gobert, even in the OT game we barely put rebounded them.

Was our defense better? Yes. Even after trading 2 of our better defenders Vanderbilt and Beverly.

Durant is a rich and talented stat stuffer …. But, he has proven incapable of leading a team. Lots of assets were moved for that guy and he always has gotten his money, but the only time he paid off was when he went to a team that was poised to win on their own.

OKC? Nope, he left.

GSW? Nope, he rode the Curry/Thompson/Green wagon for 2 rings… also Iguodala, Bogut, Livingston, Looney … they were stacked.

NJN? Nope, he left.

PHO? Nope, shelves are bare.

It’s easy to sit and grind on any given player all day long - every day. Even exposing a top talent like Durant for his clear inability to lead as he has hoarded millions and millions. Rag on Gobert all you want - that’s fine, and I’ll continue to rag on the wounded-whiner KAT. Easy stuff. We need a PG and more team grit. These players will respond to their sub-par season or they will not. As MJ always said, it’s a players game.

No it wasn't. Our defense wasn't better. Stop saying that or find metrics that prove it, because I'm not seeing it anywhere. If you want to talk specifically about half court defense fine, but outside of that as a whole it was worse.

As for KD...

OKC - he took that team to the Finals, versus Gobert has done what, get bounced and exposed in any 5 out scheme?

GSW - They needed Durant otherwise without him they were getting bounced by LeBron and Co.

Brooklyn was a **** show in general and he still did a really solid job.

It's been less than half a season with KD (8 games) and he still won them two games and a whole series. Yes they got bounced but they didnt have their starting PG or C. I don't know what you're on.

Are you seriously implying that Durant and Gobert are anywhere close to the same level?!

Nobody mentioned KAT, I haven't either, I'm not a huge fan, but I think he's still an OK player, but I'm sick of everyone pretending like Gobert is actually elite. He's not and it's clear. It's like when people argue Draymond Green is an elite player. He's not. We saw what a team led by Gobert at Center took us to. Fulckin nowhere.

I’m not comparing anyone … just illustrating how easy it is to point out player weaknesses without taking anything else into account. Hook, line, sinker.

I haven’t read where anyone has called Gobert elite - only you I think. Who says he even wanted to be here? Team brings in some defensive help and our snobby players turn their noses… specifically, DLo and KAT. One of them is gone and one to go. I don’t care what we do with Gobert, but this season showed be how little character KAT and DLo had … neither stepped up and they both made themselves bigger than the game. Mental midgets. Trade KAT and Gobert both for all I care and build around ANT and McD

[TimberKat]

Pile on a little more: I don’t know what card game you are playing but those 4 cards are 7, 6, 5, and 4. It’s not going to help me win the bid or make the contract (OK, they are not in the same suit). They are basically pointless. I need multiple Aces, Kings, and Queens. If you are playing Magic the gathering, then there are many ways to build a winning deck. I think you are playing Pokemon which only one monster can do battle at a time. All other cards are supposed to be energy or support then the fixation of remove Rudy from the deck makes some sense.

Actually, poker is my game of choice. Based on that game, the four mentioned are 8,7,5,4, which are worthless unless you are filling in a straight, or matched up with others of their kind. With ANT being an Ace, KAT a King, Gobert a queen, Jaden an Jack and Mike a 10, I have a straight flush, which will beat all others hands (unless you are playing with Jokers ). So, I will hold on to my hand and bet the house, which is what the FO did when they dealt for Rudy. Mike was the one card to fill in for when we traded in D'lo (a nine).

That is a good one. The Joker is Wild and the Joker is scary. Good thing we have Batman and Robin and Katwoman? (no...)

[Note30]

Was our defense better? Yes. Even after trading 2 of our better defenders Vanderbilt and Beverly.

Durant is a rich and talented stat stuffer …. But, he has proven incapable of leading a team. Lots of assets were moved for that guy and he always has gotten his money, but the only time he paid off was when he went to a team that was poised to win on their own.

OKC? Nope, he left.

GSW? Nope, he rode the Curry/Thompson/Green wagon for 2 rings… also Iguodala, Bogut, Livingston, Looney … they were stacked.

NJN? Nope, he left.

PHO? Nope, shelves are bare.

It’s easy to sit and grind on any given player all day long - every day. Even exposing a top talent like Durant for his clear inability to lead as he has hoarded millions and millions. Rag on Gobert all you want - that’s fine, and I’ll continue to rag on the wounded-whiner KAT. Easy stuff. We need a PG and more team grit. These players will respond to their sub-par season or they will not. As MJ always said, it’s a players game.

No it wasn't. Our defense wasn't better. Stop saying that or find metrics that prove it, because I'm not seeing it anywhere. If you want to talk specifically about half court defense fine, but outside of that as a whole it was worse.

As for KD...

OKC - he took that team to the Finals, versus Gobert has done what, get bounced and exposed in any 5 out scheme?

GSW - They needed Durant otherwise without him they were getting bounced by LeBron and Co.

Brooklyn was a **** show in general and he still did a really solid job.

It's been less than half a season with KD (8 games) and he still won them two games and a whole series. Yes they got bounced but they didnt have their starting PG or C. I don't know what you're on.

Are you seriously implying that Durant and Gobert are anywhere close to the same level?!

Nobody mentioned KAT, I haven't either, I'm not a huge fan, but I think he's still an OK player, but I'm sick of everyone pretending like Gobert is actually elite. He's not and it's clear. It's like when people argue Draymond Green is an elite player. He's not. We saw what a team led by Gobert at Center took us to. Fulckin nowhere.

I’m not comparing anyone … just illustrating how easy it is to point out player weaknesses without taking anything else into account. Hook, line, sinker.

I haven’t read where anyone has called Gobert elite - only you I think. Who says he even wanted to be here? Team brings in some defensive help and our snobby players turn their noses… specifically, DLo and KAT. One of them is gone and one to go. I don’t care what we do with Gobert, but this season showed be how little character KAT and DLo had … neither stepped up and they both made themselves bigger than the game. Mental midgets. Trade KAT and Gobert both for all I care and build around ANT and McD

I don't understand, yes you can rag on any player, hell people do it to LeBron and Curry, obviously they can do it to others.

Check every post made after the trade. Multiple posters commented on how Gobert was amazing a top-10 player, how he was a more deserving MVP than Harden, etc and etc, how he was this god-send talent.

Yeah I'm totally down to do that and trade both KAT and Gobert. Problem is we won't get **** back worth what we give up and won't have picks for like 5 years. So Ant will be playing with whatever scrubs we get out of those deals unless TC somehow strikes lucky. So we're stuck until one of them, more likely KAT than Gobert can prove they would have solid value.

[shrink]

Our defense was also not top 10 this year we were actually a worse defensive team than last year according to NBA.com and BBall Ref. (15th at 113 vs 12th at 111). You might be referring to our half-court defense. KAT has often been blamed for how bad our defense is, but it seems like it didn't really make all that much of a difference with a purely Gobert led defense vs one with KAT.

I appreciate your post, but I’m still very unclear here. On the podcasts I listen to, I have heard our defense was 8th and 9th, which was an improvement from last year. But I admit, I have a hard time keeping straight the different defensive metrics, like DRtg, DRAPM, DBPM, etc. and I tend to zone out listening if they specified “when Rudy was on the floor” or not. I love Naz, but “effective defender” he is not, even with the occasional block.

I know all defensive stats are messy, and they are often quite correlated with the other nine players on the floor, but is there one method we can agree upon to determine Rudy’s defensive impact last year? Or at least something to help straighten out all the different things I hear?

[Note30]

Our defense was also not top 10 this year we were actually a worse defensive team than last year according to NBA.com and BBall Ref. (15th at 113 vs 12th at 111). You might be referring to our half-court defense. KAT has often been blamed for how bad our defense is, but it seems like it didn't really make all that much of a difference with a purely Gobert led defense vs one with KAT.

I appreciate your post, but I’m still very unclear here. On the podcasts I listen to, I have heard our defense was 8th and 9th, which was an improvement from last year. But I admit, I have a hard time keeping straight the different defensive metrics, like DRtg, DRAPM, DBPM, etc. and I tend to zone out listening if they specified “when Rudy was on the floor” or not. I love Naz, but “effective defender” he is not, even with the occasional block.

I know all defensive stats are messy, and they are often quite correlated with the other nine players on the floor, but is there one method we can agree upon to determine Rudy’s defensive impact last year? Or at least something to help straighten out all the different things I hear?

I'd love some clarification too, cause what I'm seeing for defensive rankings in most sites is inaccurate then. I haven't seen a single site with 8 or 9th, but I have see multiple putting us at 13th (1) and more commonly 15th (4).

Well I don't know if Rudy's impact should be the one that's measured if we're talking about the team. My argument was that yes we brought in Rudy, but our defense got worse not better as a team. That I'm backing up using BBall Ref, NBA.com, and StatMuse. It seems like all of the metrics are similar tho.

I don't have a synergy account, so this is the most info I have.

[TimberKat]

But, just read a quote from KAT saying that the Wolves ( as an organization, no talking about himself) season was a failure cause when you make all that deals the target is to win the championship.

Now, we can continue with the other narrative

That "quote" is out of context. I believe it came from the pod cast where someone ask PG and Towns: "You heard Giannis' comment about failure. Do you consider your season a failure?" PG goes on to say Yes, because we had a lot of talent and I got hurt.... Then Towns made his comment. So yes, there is only one team that is not a failure. In that context, we are all failures one way or other.

[shrink]

One last comment on team defense.

I get that we want to put all the blame or glory on Gobert, who was brought here for his defense, when we compare this year or last. And it’s true that if you remove PatBev and Vanderbilt, it becomes harder for Rudy to elevate team defense from last season. However, don’t forget that losing KAT for 50 games should have made it easier to improve the team defense. Jaden and Ant’s improvement helped as well.

[Nick K]

The Wolves have only made it to the 2nd round in the playoffs once.

I was just about to say the same thing. We often hear the “oh but MIN gave up too many draft picks!” .. and that’s 100% true. However, we have had 33 seasons worth of draft picks .. sometimes more than one, and usually better picks in the lottery .. and with 33 picks, we’ve made it to the second round ONCE.

Now, whatever answer people give to this is fine .. it’s their opinion. But for me, getting to the second round twice would make this the most successful playoff team in Wolves history, and I believe that this group, if they use Gobert well, has a chance to do even better.

OMG! That's good. So true. Picks are such a gamble. Even though I say trade Rudy, I suspect that's not happening. They give it one more year. Initially when this trade was done I was certain we'd play for a title. I never imagined Rudy was such an unskilled offensive player.

We still can win a title with the right coaching. Finch took a hit last year for me. He's too slow to make changes even when he thinks he should make them.

We need a bench and much stronger guard play.

I'd move J Mac, Rivers, Knight, Nowell, Ryan. That should do it.

Rivers is the only one who I might keep. He's experienced and excellent in the team room. He can have great moments. Just not enough.

[TimberKat]

Our defense was also not top 10 this year we were actually a worse defensive team than last year according to NBA.com and BBall Ref. (15th at 113 vs 12th at 111). You might be referring to our half-court defense. KAT has often been blamed for how bad our defense is, but it seems like it didn't really make all that much of a difference with a purely Gobert led defense vs one with KAT.

Our defensive rebounding was also unsurprisingly exactly the same as last year. 32.8 rebs vs 32.9 rebs. Granted KAT who was the leading rebounder last year also was missing for 52 games, but by that logic Gobert isn't a better rebounder than KAT.

So what exactly are you referring to?

Even by all the statistics we are not better off with Gobert.

Really? We are definitely watching two different games. The 15th at 113... is the points allow per game. Defensive rating is "DEF RTG". We are 10th at 113.1. last year we were 13th at 111. While your defensive rebounding number is correct, but you fail to mention last year we rank 25th. This year we rank 18th. You could had made your argument that we rank 26th in offensive rebounding this year and last year we were 6th. The Trump presidency had turn me into a prolific fact checker

[TimberKat]

No it wasn't. Our defense wasn't better. Stop saying that or find metrics that prove it, because I'm not seeing it anywhere. If you want to talk specifically about half court defense fine, but outside of that as a whole it was worse.

Are you seriously implying that Durant and Gobert are anywhere close to the same level?!

Nobody mentioned KAT, I haven't either, I'm not a huge fan, but I think he's still an OK player, but I'm sick of everyone pretending like Gobert is actually elite. He's not and it's clear. It's like when people argue Draymond Green is an elite player. He's not. We saw what a team led by Gobert at Center took us to. Fulckin nowhere.

KAT's girlfriend looks great. I just beat him at Call of Duty last night. What is there to talk about for someone who missed 50+ games? I don't think he was ever 100% this year. How many times Draymond made the all star game? Somehow he got carry by Curry on defense? I think you need to watch the defensive side of the game more. If defense is overrated, then sure, Gobert sucks.

[Note30]

Our defense was also not top 10 this year we were actually a worse defensive team than last year according to NBA.com and BBall Ref. (15th at 113 vs 12th at 111). You might be referring to our half-court defense. KAT has often been blamed for how bad our defense is, but it seems like it didn't really make all that much of a difference with a purely Gobert led defense vs one with KAT.

Our defensive rebounding was also unsurprisingly exactly the same as last year. 32.8 rebs vs 32.9 rebs. Granted KAT who was the leading rebounder last year also was missing for 52 games, but by that logic Gobert isn't a better rebounder than KAT.

So what exactly are you referring to?

Even by all the statistics we are not better off with Gobert.

Really? We are definitely watching two different games. The 15th at 113... is the points allow per game. Defensive rating is "DEF RTG". We are 10th at 113.1. last year we were 13th at 111. While your defensive rebounding number is correct, but you fail to mention last year we rank 25th. This year we rank 18th. You could had made your argument that we rank 26th in offensive rebounding this year and last year we were 6th. The Trump presidency had turn me into a prolific fact checker

I'm no whiz but 113 sounds worse than 111. If we played the same scheme last year we'd likely be at 111 again maybe lower if the Conley trade still happened.

I only saw DReb% and count when I was on NBA.com, must have missed the All Rebounds.

[Note30]

No it wasn't. Our defense wasn't better. Stop saying that or find metrics that prove it, because I'm not seeing it anywhere. If you want to talk specifically about half court defense fine, but outside of that as a whole it was worse.

Are you seriously implying that Durant and Gobert are anywhere close to the same level?!

Nobody mentioned KAT, I haven't either, I'm not a huge fan, but I think he's still an OK player, but I'm sick of everyone pretending like Gobert is actually elite. He's not and it's clear. It's like when people argue Draymond Green is an elite player. He's not. We saw what a team led by Gobert at Center took us to. Fulckin nowhere.

KAT's girlfriend looks great. I just beat him at Call of Duty last night. What is there to talk about for someone who missed 50+ games? I don't think he was ever 100% this year. How many times Draymond made the all star game? Somehow he got carry by Curry on defense? I think you need to watch the defensive side of the game more. If defense is overrated, then sure, Gobert sucks.

That's the point, I don't know why KAT was brought up.

**** Draymond. I do watch the defensive side of the game, I'm just not a fan of Draymond. In fact in college I played a 1-3-1 defense and was the anchor at the top. I really dislike Draymond, he's solid on the defensive end, but I do think he got a lot of help all those years he was in DPOY running. I also think he cheats a lot. He cheats his coverage a lot. The effort isn't there, I feel the same way when I watch Rudy. Maybe it's because I really don't like drop coverage as well. I also dislike Rondo and Tony Allens styles of defense because it's similar to Draymond in that they cheat as well. It's just the inverse because where Draymond would position off the ball handler, Rondo and Tony would be on the ball handler. There are defenders who make a good living off of being positional defenders that are really good at what they do without cheating. Tim Duncan, even on this team in Kyle. On ball, it gets harder, but Jrue, Kawhi (Spurs), JKidd (before getting super old), CP3 when he was younger. Kobe cheated quite a bit, but still had a lot of amazing positional defense.

And how could I possibly talk about positional defense without talking about the best help and positional defenders in our very own KG. KG is up there arguably in my opinion as one of the top 3 defensive players of all time, if not number 1. KG didn't cheat. He's not like Gobert either who just rolls and hopes his length can cover the shot and deflect it. KG got angles better than any other defender. He thought about how to push a guy baseline and used every fundamental in the book while also employing his frighteningly different frame. It also helps he wasn't soft as **** like Gobert and could actually compete and grab a rebound over someone if he did somehow unbelievably screw up, instead of getting boxed out by the likes of GP2 or Jonathan Kuminga or Looney(who actually is a really solid rebounder and positional defender as well).

So yeah, not a huge fan of Draymond or Gobert.
Has little to do with the players and more how they play. The only equivalent to Draymond that I saw in history that I actually liked was Boris Diaw during the Spurs run of 12-14.

[TimberKat]

Our defense was also not top 10 this year we were actually a worse defensive team than last year according to NBA.com and BBall Ref. (15th at 113 vs 12th at 111). You might be referring to our half-court defense. KAT has often been blamed for how bad our defense is, but it seems like it didn't really make all that much of a difference with a purely Gobert led defense vs one with KAT.

Our defensive rebounding was also unsurprisingly exactly the same as last year. 32.8 rebs vs 32.9 rebs. Granted KAT who was the leading rebounder last year also was missing for 52 games, but by that logic Gobert isn't a better rebounder than KAT.

So what exactly are you referring to?

Even by all the statistics we are not better off with Gobert.

Really? We are definitely watching two different games. The 15th at 113... is the points allow per game. Defensive rating is "DEF RTG". We are 10th at 113.1. last year we were 13th at 111. While your defensive rebounding number is correct, but you fail to mention last year we rank 25th. This year we rank 18th. You could had made your argument that we rank 26th in offensive rebounding this year and last year we were 6th. The Trump presidency had turn me into a prolific fact checker

I'm no whiz but 113 sounds worse than 111. If we played the same scheme last year we'd likely be at 111 again maybe lower if the Conley trade still happened.

I only saw DReb% and count when I was on NBA.com, must have missed the All Rebounds.

The stat is per 100 possessions so really only good for comparing with another team in the same year. The 2010-11 Twolves team had a rating of 109.9. Are they better? That is the team with KLove, Darko, Beasley, Ridnour, and Wesley Johnson. Before you want to say yes, they were rank 27th in the league.

[TimberKat]

**** Draymond. I do watch the defensive side of the game, I'm just not a fan of Draymond. In fact in college I played a 1-3-1 defense and was the anchor at the top. I really dislike Draymond, he's solid on the defensive end, but I do think he got a lot of help all those years he was in DPOY running.

And how could I possibly talk about positional defense without talking about the best help and positional defenders in our very own KG. KG is up there arguably in my opinion as one of the top 3 defensive players of all time, if not number 1. KG didn't cheat.

So yeah, not a huge fan of Draymond or Gobert.
Has little to do with the players and more how they play. The only equivalent to Draymond that I saw in history that I actually liked was Boris Diaw during the Spurs run of 12-14.

Ok, that explained the bias toward big guys. Draymond is also a very good passing big. He was fairly invisible in the Lakers series, maybe it just because I was too busy posting.

For once we agree on something - KG is an all time great on defense. He can defend 1 to 5. I think he is better than Rodman. If you are so concern with player not moving their feet (you consider cheating), than you shouldn't be so high on Ant.

[Note30]

Really? We are definitely watching two different games. The 15th at 113... is the points allow per game. Defensive rating is "DEF RTG". We are 10th at 113.1. last year we were 13th at 111. While your defensive rebounding number is correct, but you fail to mention last year we rank 25th. This year we rank 18th. You could had made your argument that we rank 26th in offensive rebounding this year and last year we were 6th. The Trump presidency had turn me into a prolific fact checker

I'm no whiz but 113 sounds worse than 111. If we played the same scheme last year we'd likely be at 111 again maybe lower if the Conley trade still happened.

I only saw DReb% and count when I was on NBA.com, must have missed the All Rebounds.

The stat is per 100 possessions so really only good for comparing with another team in the same year. The 2010-11 Twolves team had a rating of 109.9. Are they better? That is the team with KLove, Darko, Beasley, Ridnour, and Wesley Johnson. Before you want to say yes, they were rank 27th in the league.

The pace and average rating has changed a lot in 13 years. The pace especially, so has how basketball is played.

A 13 year difference is not the same as a one year difference.

I don't see other people jumping in and saying anything about how you're using a ridiculous hyperbole, yet when I do it to chastise Gobert people are up in arms crying.

[Note30]

**** Draymond. I do watch the defensive side of the game, I'm just not a fan of Draymond. In fact in college I played a 1-3-1 defense and was the anchor at the top. I really dislike Draymond, he's solid on the defensive end, but I do think he got a lot of help all those years he was in DPOY running.

And how could I possibly talk about positional defense without talking about the best help and positional defenders in our very own KG. KG is up there arguably in my opinion as one of the top 3 defensive players of all time, if not number 1. KG didn't cheat.

So yeah, not a huge fan of Draymond or Gobert.
Has little to do with the players and more how they play. The only equivalent to Draymond that I saw in history that I actually liked was Boris Diaw during the Spurs run of 12-14.

Ok, that explained the bias toward big guys. Draymond is also a very good passing big. He was fairly invisible in the Lakers series, maybe it just because I was too busy posting.

For once we agree on something - KG is an all time great on defense. He can defend 1 to 5. I think he is better than Rodman. If you are so concern with player not moving their feet (you consider cheating), than you shouldn't be so high on Ant.

He's not an all-time great imo he's the best ever.

Cheating isn't not moving your feet, it's taking shortcuts. KA is bad at moving his feet but he's still a great defender. There are times when it's acceptable to go under a screen or play the hedge hard, but when you do so hoping an outcome doesn't happen because you are just hoping, that's cheating. Examples I can think of are when Rondo goes for behind the back picks, or blocking an opponent from behind when you can make the shot harder by putting more effort, or in the case of Draymond and Gobert, running alongside the middle man and playing the hedge hard and hoping help can cover the sides. You as a player are shifting your responsibility a bit because you *hope* for a specific outcome. Gambling passing lanes, reaching, and pulling the chair are all examples of that, great if you can actually land it, otherwise it's just gambling.

[Klomp]

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