Leafs 2013-14 Regular Season Thread

[Brew666]

Another thing that absolutely sucks about this collapse is that Eakins is gone and in Edmonton. He hasn't had a lot of success in his first year but all the young guys coming up learned under him with the Marlies. He's shown an ability to coach those guys and you want that if they made a move on Carlyle and that opportunity is gone.

Personally, I'm glad we avoided Eakins for the time being and think it would be an even bigger disaster than what has happened with Carlyle. In Edmonton, he's looking pretty green and the bright lights here, it would have been even more magnified. I was a big Eakins fan with the Marlies but just don't think he's ready to be a NHL coach yet. I think he'll eventually be a good coach but I don't think having him cut his teeth as the head coach of the Leafs is a good idea.

[KnickerBonkerz]

The only reason I think it's good is it might actually open Lieweke's eyes a bit. I'm not really a fan of Nonis and he came here after a playoff run and Nonis was an easy sell. Now that they've fallen back, he might call for some significant changes.

How are Kulemin and Gunnarson solid, they add nothing of value. Kulemin was paid to score, not be a defensive player. If he's not scoring, he's useless. You can find defensive players or just play young guys.

Gunnarson is another replaceable piece and we have youth on D coming up.

Kulemin has never been a scorer, aside from that one season where he got 20 goals. He IS a good defensive player, great at forechecking and penalty kill. He's not quite as replaceable as you think, probably one of our better trade assets. Although he is a bit inconsistent.

Gunnarson I totally agree, he's one of our most overrated players. He's constantly referred to as "steady" which is another way of saying he does absolutely nothing.

[whysoserious]

Kulemin has never been a scorer, aside from that one season where he got 20 goals. He IS a good defensive player, great at forechecking and penalty kill. He's not quite as replaceable as you think, probably one of our better trade assets. Although he is a bit inconsistent.

Gunnarson I totally agree, he's one of our most overrated players. He's constantly referred to as "steady" which is another way of saying he does absolutely nothing.

Kulemin was young and scoring early, he was signed to an extension to provide that. He's a solid player but he's a 3rd and 4th line player, those are replaceable parts. Sometimes people act like 3rd and 4th liners are something you commit to. They simply aren't. Do they add value to a team? Absolutely. Mason Raymond would be a perfect 3rd line winger, provide some offense and good puck handling. But you play you're youth and find guys to fill in.

Kulemin is nowhere near a player to say is invaluable or a must have. Our first two lines aren't good enough and we're worried about players like Kulemin. Same thing applies when you look at our defense, the top of the defense isn't good enough and we spend time worrying about we can't lose Franson or we should trade Gardiner/Reilly when these guys are young and nowhere near reliable but because of how bad the defense is, expectations are so high on these guys to be perfect players so early in their career.

[KnickerBonkerz]

Kulemin has never been a scorer, aside from that one season where he got 20 goals. He IS a good defensive player, great at forechecking and penalty kill. He's not quite as replaceable as you think, probably one of our better trade assets. Although he is a bit inconsistent.

Gunnarson I totally agree, he's one of our most overrated players. He's constantly referred to as "steady" which is another way of saying he does absolutely nothing.

Kulemin was young and scoring early, he was signed to an extension to provide that. He's a solid player but he's a 3rd and 4th line player, those are replaceable parts. Sometimes people act like 3rd and 4th liners are something you commit to. They simply aren't. Do they add value to a team? Absolutely. Mason Raymond would be a perfect 3rd line winger, provide some offense and good puck handling. But you play you're youth and find guys to fill in.

Kulemin is nowhere near a player to say is invaluable or a must have. Our first two lines aren't good enough and we're worried about players like Kulemin. Same thing applies when you look at our defense, the top of the defense isn't good enough and we spend time worrying about we can't lose Franson or we should trade Gardiner/Reilly when these guys are young and nowhere near reliable but because of how bad the defense is, expectations are so high on these guys to be perfect players so early in their career.

I'm not at all worried about losing Kulemin, I'm just explaining why he's a valuable player. And I do NOT think Mason Raymond is a better 3rd liner because he's one dimensional, has no size, and provides no checking whatsoever. Plus he's gonna want a lot more than 1million next season

[Ado05]

Yeah I'll take Kulemin over Raymond everyday of the week. Last thing we need is a soft player. If Kulemin is willing to come back at 2-2.5 mill per year, i'd lock him up for 2-3 years.

[whysoserious]

I dont hate Kulemin but for what he provodes is he really worth it?

If youre expecting Raymond to be a checker thats not what he is. Buy as third liner to have some offensive spark hes perfect. You balance the line out with a good defensive C and a winger.

Id rather have Kulemin on the line with him than the useless Clarkson but you guya are acting like Kulemin is irreplaceable and he isnt.

With our cap messed up. You may be better throwing a Bodie and some you kids on youre third and fourth lines.

[Brew666]

I dont hate Kulemin but for what he provodes is he really worth it?

If youre expecting Raymond to be a checker thats not what he is. Buy as third liner to have some offensive spark hes perfect. You balance the line out with a good defensive C and a winger.

Id rather have Kulemin on the line with him than the useless Clarkson but you guya are acting like Kulemin is irreplaceable and he isnt.

With our cap messed up. You may be better throwing a Bodie and some you kids on youre third and fourth lines.

I think Kulemin is more a complete hockey player and a better fit to have on your third line than Raymond. If the coach is using the third line as their checking line against the opposing teams' best lines, I want Kulemin on the ice because of his board work, positioning, and defensive play. I see Raymond more as a cheap option for a top six forward. Great skater with some offensive flair but not very strong on the puck and invisible in his own end.

I'm thinking they're going to be asking for similar money (Raymond will be asking for more but close) and the question comes down to what is the bigger need/toughest hole to fill? Quality checking third liner or scoring on the second line/third? Both are needed, but I'd say a quality third liner checker has more value than the 6th forward in your top six, who is a complimentary piece. Even if you're using Raymond on your 3rd line, he's still complimentary b/c you need a quality checking center and winger to even it out.

All that said, if there's a viable replacement (Komarov) for Kulemin/3rd line checker and not Raymond/bottom top six fwd, resign Raymond and let Kulemin walk.

Here's my off-season moves: resign Bolland, Kulemin, Raymond and Bodie (all dependent on term and money), let McClement and Ranger walk. Deal restricted free agents Franson and Reimer (probably worth nothing and I'd just let him walk at this point). Resign Gardiner.

Supposedly Komarov wants back in the NHL and the Leafs will have first dibs on him. Add him to the bunch too.

I'm dealing Kadri if I can get fair value for him. Whether he's packaged to get a top 2 dman or top six forward I'm doing it. Every season he seems to be on the brink of a breakout season and then just completely underwhelms. He's had more than enough chances and has yet to put together 82 games. But what's the value of a 23 year old prospect who has yet to put it all together and will likely be asking for too much money?

I'd also try to get rid of Lupul too. No one is taking on Clarkson's contract and it would be stupid to waive him because then his salary will be on the books until the next millennium. Maybe they deal Phaneuf but I doubt it (I'd like them to but wouldn't expect to get value for him) and if they do, they have to find someone who can eat up minutes if it's not an upgrade. By dealing Lupul, they clear cap space and should be able to get something serviceable back.

[whysoserious]

In today's NHL, you're third line has to have a checking element and a scoring element. They aren't your elite offensive line but you need support from that line offensively. If all Kulemin is providing is checking, then pay him like a fourth-liner/third-liner and play him on the fourth line, sometimes third line and in specialty situations.

The way the Leafs are built, Bozak is not good enough as a first line C (and I'll admit he provides some good offense and great defense) so then you look to your second line and they don't provide enough consistent scoring support for a first line, and once you shutdown Kessel/JVR the team can't really provide enough offense and the defense isn't good enough to give the goalies sufficient support they need.

To me, I don't buy in to Burke's separation of top 6 forwards, bottom 6 forwards. I look at it more like top 6 forwards, your next 3 forwards as a hybrid between the top 6 and bottom 3.

But for checking roles and third and fourth liners, you can always find cheaper options or just let some of your young guys on the Marlies fill in. Since the Leafs have screwed up their cap in other areas, you're going to have to find cheap options. Just like Nonis found Raymond this year for a million bucks, you're going to have to constantly find value like that and hope some young guys come up and fill those roles.

[Brew666]

I hear ya about getting scoring from the third line and the new NHL but I still think they're primary role is to be the teams' best checking line who can provide offense when the opportunity arises (Nothing better than having your best players as your best checkers (i.e. Toews, Crosby, Getzlaf, Perry, Backes, Steen) and having them on the ice in all situations but that's not Toronto). If you're getting scoring from your third line it's because they're a two way player, not because they're strictly an offensive player (I'm assuming this but feel it's accurate).

If Crosby, Neal and Kunitz are on the ice for a faceoff in the Leafs' zone I want defensively aware players on the ice, not a mix, because those situations call for all five players to play D. I want a quality checking line and something more substantial than Raymond and free agent bargains for a third line. The way that the third line has evolved for me is that it's no longer strictly checking/shutdown/shadowing players. They can cycle the puck, counterattack, and capitalize on the other team's mistakes but their primary plan is still to be a really good checking line.

Toughest thing with Kulemin is, who is a similar player and what's their value? Is 3 mill/year too much for a forward who can't put the puck in the net? Who is the best defensive forward in the game without quality stats (g/a/p)? What's their value?

The least of worries for me is the first line. Offensively this team has completely relied on the 1st line this year and I don't think that line should be hauling an even bigger load. Every 1st line in the NHL will be shut down and you need secondary scoring/depth. I see the solution to the problem as the opposite. It's a really good first line that is good without any tinkering and the line is not tying up an enormous amount of cap. A competent GM should be able to spend wisely and build a deep 4 line team with the money spent on their current 1st line.

If I'm building a team, my first line is going to be my best fwds/threats/two way players, second line would focus on strictly offensive skills without any thoughts about own zone play, third line is a quality checking line with the ability to counter/put the puck in the net and the 4th line is all about energy and cycling the puck.

This team will need to fill out the roster will cheaper options at some positions but seems to be a big risk to rely on free agent bargains (see the Blue Jays)

[whysoserious]

I can't for the life of me understand the amount of hate that Kadri gets sometimes. He's definitely not untouchable but the guy is putting up 48 points in his second full season in the league as a second line C, that's not horrible production from a 23 year old. There's room to grow easily in to a 60-70 point producer as a second line C.

He's by no means perfect, makes some stupid decisions at times with his passes that puts pressure on his defense but he also scores, has creativity and plays with an edge that agitates opposing teams. The biggest thing for him is to just clean up the defensive miscues and produce more consistently and get better at face-offs. Not bad at all for a young kid and nowhere near the level of low production Schenn would provide that said you gotta trade him.

[Brew666]

You're right about calling me out about being harsh on Kadri. It's completely reasonable for him to reach 60-70 pts a year and I'd be happy with that production from a 2nd line centre.

Where my frustration lies is how good he looked last year and this year it looks like he's regressed. I wanted him to seize the opportunity of playing with JVR and Kessel but his play with that line made Bozak look like a legit #1 centre in comparison. Maybe the contract stuff weighed on him a bit but last year he played a more complete game. He looked like he was developing into a 1st line/1b centre and this year it's been knocked down a notch. I want to be wrong and I want to him to reach his potential with the Leafs but I don't know. I love a lot of things about his game and there is definitely a need for his creativity and edge on this team but he still has a lot of work to do in other parts of his game. With his skills he could be a a really good two way player but it's like he doesn't realize it.

Haha, did I say we gotta trade Schenn? I'm glad I did because I tend to overvalue the blue and white at times. IIRC I wasn't upset with the JVR trade and felt it was fair value at the time. My thinking around Kadri, the same with Schenn, is strike while the iron is hot. When Schenn was dealt, it was a similar scenario for me. A player entering a year that'll likely determine the path of their career, flat line (2nd line C) or reaching their potential (1st line C/1b C), with me leaning towards the former. If a GM is desperate enough to overpay (I shouldn't have said fair value earlier) for the potential, I'm definitely thinking about it at this point. And then add in the variable that Kadri is going to be looking to get paid this summer too. Last year I felt his side of the negotiations was asking for way too much based on his NHL career at that point and I"m expecting the same with this round of negotiations.

[whysoserious]

It really wasn't directed at you per se, but listening to everyone and on the radio shows I'm not sure why he gets as much flack as he does.

Like you, I wish he had stepped up when he played with JVR and Kessel. The fact is, he's not a top line C. He is more of a second line C. But the Leafs love to sell every prospect as such high end talent because they actually are never in a position to draft those players and they love marketing these kids as quickly as possible. It's unfair.

The same thing happened with Schenn being marketed as the future captain of the Leafs and such a good defensemen. Then Gardiner had a good rookie year and they started selling and hyping him.

Morgan Reilly is in that boat now (though he actually looks like a game-changer). They just need to back off selling these kids so soon as being future stars and just let them develop.

Back to Kadri, I would have no problem trading him in a package if it landed a true game changer on the first line as C and then slotting Bozak back one spot (him and Lupul have had good chemistry in the past too).

Kadri though is producing at a very reasonable clip that he could improve and be that player and he has an edge that this team needs. The biggest thing is consistency and adding defensive awareness but even at 23 he's still relatively young. Just don't expect a breakout superstar.

[Brew666]

Completely agree about the pressure put on prospects in this market. We're sorta like Lennie from Of Mice and Men, where we finally get something into our grips that we want but end up crushing it. Our loyalty conspires against us. Then add in the fact that Leafs' mgmt for the most part have viewed high draft picks as trade chips instead of a ways to build depth and a franchise.

A friend and I were talking about the correlation between impatience and a losing culture. Short term goals have always come before long term with Leafs mgmt, and it's mind boggling why. If there is any fan base that will continue to support a team while it's down, it's Leafs fans. It already happened in the Ballard years. Take your time and do it right, you'll be rewarded handsomely.

[Ado05]

Bernier is done for the regular season, and Columbus lost last night. I really hope Reimer shows up tonight, but I dont think he will. Season over.

[Ado05]

So if the Jackets win, we're pretty much done. They're up 4-0 in third. Carlyle needs to be gone, need to bring in a good two way or stay at home d-man that is a top 2 or at the very least top 3 (hopefully Vancouver starts a rebuild, really like Hamuis and Bieska and Edler), and have to bring in a good top 6 forward for some more depth scoring. Also have to question the leadership of Phaneuf and potentially remove the 'C' from his jersey.

[whysoserious]

So if the Jackets win, we're pretty much done. They're up 4-0 in third. Carlyle needs to be gone, need to bring in a good two way or stay at home d-man that is a top 2 or at the very least top 3 (hopefully Vancouver starts a rebuild, really like Hamuis and Bieska and Edler), and have to bring in a good top 6 forward for some more depth scoring. Also have to question the leadership of Phaneuf and potentially remove the 'C' from his jersey.

This team needs a number 1 C, a number 1 D and a better coach. They have no cap flexibility to address either of the first two so I expect Carlyle will take the fall. I'm fine either way on him. I think last year was a bit of an aberration and this team still had to grow, they blew their capspace basically on Clarkson, Bozak and then Kessel and Phaneufs extensions plus Lupul's previous extension.

Absolutely horrible cap management. Everyone said they had to sign Phaneuf to that money then complain that we need better defensemen. You can't pay 7 million per year for a guy considered a number 2/3 D-man. They should have let him hit the market and let someone else overpay.

This team is always trying to hype guys up to a status of being stars that they aren't and then overpay for them.

[Ado05]

So if the Jackets win, we're pretty much done. They're up 4-0 in third. Carlyle needs to be gone, need to bring in a good two way or stay at home d-man that is a top 2 or at the very least top 3 (hopefully Vancouver starts a rebuild, really like Hamuis and Bieska and Edler), and have to bring in a good top 6 forward for some more depth scoring. Also have to question the leadership of Phaneuf and potentially remove the 'C' from his jersey.

This team needs a number 1 C, a number 1 D and a better coach. They have no cap flexibility to address either of the first two so I expect Carlyle will take the fall. I'm fine either way on him. I think last year was a bit of an aberration and this team still had to grow, they blew their capspace basically on Clarkson, Bozak and then Kessel and Phaneufs extensions plus Lupul's previous extension.

Absolutely horrible cap management. Everyone said they had to sign Phaneuf to that money then complain that we need better defensemen. You can't pay 7 million per year for a guy considered a number 2/3 D-man. They should have let him hit the market and let someone else overpay.

This team is always trying to hype guys up to a status of being stars that they aren't and then overpay for them.

Wouldnt mind trading Kadri + Gardiner + whatever else it would take to get a 1C or 1D in. But we cant get both, thats for sure. We dont have enough assets. Or cap space.

Clarkson deal is pretty bad right now, but I think he'll improve. Still wont be worth 5.25, though.

One thing with Phaneuf is that he still our best defenceman, and he still does an alright job (though of late he's been pretty ****). If you get rid of Phaneuf, then you need to get someone who is as good or better than him or else our D is extremely weak.

[whysoserious]

Wouldnt mind trading Kadri + Gardiner + whatever else it would take to get a 1C or 1D in. But we cant get both, thats for sure. We dont have enough assets. Or cap space.

Clarkson deal is pretty bad right now, but I think he'll improve. Still wont be worth 5.25, though.

One thing with Phaneuf is that he still our best defenceman, and he still does an alright job (though of late he's been pretty ****). If you get rid of Phaneuf, then you need to get someone who is as good or better than him or else our D is extremely weak.

I have no problem trading Kadri really if you're landing a true star player. I don't think you can and I wouldn't trade Gardiner either. The Leafs made the mistake of committing to Phaneuf, Bozak and Clarkson on their deals.

Yes, the Leafs would take a hit to step back and lose Phaneuf because even though he's unable to reach the level of player everyone wants, he's good when his role is reduced back a step or two.

But just because you take a hit by losing him, that's not an excuse to overpay just to keep him. That's the big mistake, you take the hit on defense while you find a true number 1 and use stop-gaps. This fear of losing players os you have to sign them is a huge problem that stands out.

[Crowned]

I really don't think the Leafs need a #1 C right now. The top line of JVR-Bozak-Kessel was far too good this year to break up. They could certainly use a strong #2 (essentially a 1B). As much as it was discussed earlier, I think Ryan Kesler would've been a very good addition on the 2nd line...and it's something that should be explored in the offseason.

What needs to be done?

- We need a head coach. I don't like Carlysle, and never will.
- Trade Lupul. He's been good in the past, but it's time to move on. He's fragile and struggled this year. There's too much money tied up there.
- Trade Reimer if the value is there. If they can't fetch a prospect, pick or young roster player...keep him.
- Trade Franson. He's terrible. Enough said.
- We need secondary scoring. The top line was relied on far too much.

[whysoserious]

Bozak has been a suitable first line C but hes not a game changer to play that role. Yes hes done a fine job but this goes back to when Sundin was the C and had barely passable wingers. He could carry them and theyd produce but they arent really the quality of first line wingers you want for Sundin. Same thing applies for Bozak. You guys are being blinded by the fact hes producing at a reasonable clip or that hes not a major problem (which he isnt) and then saying we need a second line C or 1b, well thats exactly what Bozak is. Go get a game changing first line (not easy i'll admit) and address the fact you dont have these game changing truly elite talents.