M4P wrote:HeartBreakKid wrote:M4P wrote:Lol? Let's hear it then. Do you even train? There's a reason why guys like Ngannou, early Jones, and Nick Rodriguez dominate without much time on the mats. Athleticism matters. Size matters. A blue belt Zion is ragdolling most black belt hobbyist bjj players and would wreck most amateur mma competitors at his weight. Conor at 5'9, 180 is getting taken out by a blue belt Zion.
That's great but Zion Williams doesn't have a blue belt. You're saying that if Zion Williams knew how to fight he could beat a fighter...but he doesn't know how to fight. Blue belt these days takes like two years to get at a good school, not exactly something you can learn overnight. A year at best if his sensei isn't a stiffler about promotions and he trains a ton a week.
As for your example - Ngannou doesn't dominate people on the floor and has never been a good jiu jitsu guy. Unless if you meant by mat you did not mean grappling, in which case Ngannou had a boxing background before he transferred over into MMA, and actually he lost very early in his career simply because he lacked experience.
Jon Jones and Nick Rodriguez had wrestling backgrounds before crossing over into MMA and Sub Wrestling. Several years of wrestling is essentially a high level belt in a martial art.
Zion Williams has a few basketball games in the NCAA and NBA. Not exactly comparable. Yes, if Zion had two years of training he'd be pretty good, but you're still underestimating how long it takes for guys to get good at fighting. There are pro NFL players who have decent careers in MMA but only really become decent after they had a few years and their reputation protected by good booking. Even then none of them have ever been that close to dominant or a serious contender.
In this hypothetical of hypotheticals occurring within a vacuum, I have already conceded that if a fight were to occur right now Conor would win pretty easily.
With that being said, I then made the point that if Zion committed, full-time, to a mma specific grappling art for a few months (ie obtain a blue belt under the assumption he is training full-time), he would pretty handily smash Conor. Ngannou and Jones were both incredibly raw during their first few fights. J
ones was never the most technically elite wrestler in the UFC, but it did not matter because of his raw talent and athleticism. There is a reason why he's the GOAT and not DC. Ngannou is still incredibly raw and not at all technical, but is able to get away with it because of his power. "Mat time" is not specific to grappling, but refers to time refining a skillset. BJJ and wrestling aren't the only martial arts that involve mats.
Too many people here don't seem to understand the size, athleticism, and overall strength difference between Conor and Zion. A blue belt Zion (something that can absolutely be achieved within or under a year if training full-time) fighting Conor would be similar to Grace Gundrum grappling with pre ADCC trials Nick Rodriguez. It doesn't matter if you are a prodigy -- size and athleticism plays a HUGE role in combat sports.
1) Jon Jones was incredible wrestler prior to the UFC.
In 2006, Jon claimed the 197-pound National Junior College Athletic Association wrestling title, leading Iowa Central Community College to the first of five consecutive team championships.
There is no question Jones could have been one of the best collegiate wrestlers in the country if he chose that route. He beat phenoms like Max Askren (one of the best collegiate wrestlers ever, 3 time NCAA all-American) in College before dropping out and going into MMA. He literally comes from a family of accomplished wrestlers.
As we know, wrestling is the best base to start your MMA career.
So yes, Jones is a gifted athletic freak, but he didn't come without a great wrestling background to the UFC.
2) Ngannou didn't just go straight to the top level of MMA. Ngannou started training for boxing at the age of 22 on and off. At the age of 26 he trained under top boxing coaches in France. He made his MMA debut outside of the UFC at 27 years old. He fought for two years in amateur fighting leagues before getting the call to the UFC at age 29.
So Ngannou, while a physical freak, spent about 5 years of boxing training before even entering the MMA scene, and needed to prove himself in an amateur organization for two years, before getting the call to the UFC.
So this proves the amount of training required. You can't just train a few months and expect to hold your own against top fighters, not going to happen.
